Racist Ásatrú?

[The Hammer]

So, I have been taking a look into Norse Mythology and Asatru the last couple of days. And I have to say that it looks very interesting and given some recent events, my interests have been piqued.

Now, here comes the issue I am seeing. What is up with all the white supremacy and neo-nazi garbage? As an outsider just tentatively dipping his toes into Norse mythology, Religion, and culture; this is, to say the least, very disconcerning and discouraging, by the large. For one, I am heavily liberal in most regards haha, and two, would not want to get lumped with said group of individuals either.

I don't know if I really had any questions, or really just wanted to put my ideas down in a forum setting.

 

[Jainarayan]

You'll find 1,000 times more condemnation of that stuff than you'll find support for it. It's an unfortunate stigma. Any religion or philosophy can be co-opted for ill-purpose. The only time I give it even fleeting thought is when someone brings it up... like now. Seriously, and if anyone fits the stereotype, I think I do... short, "husky" (pc for "fat" ), shaved bald, leather-booted and leather jacketed. Nope, I don't even think it's worth thinking about.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Sorry to intrude this DIR, but I would like to add to the conversation.

I'm fairly involved in my local Pagan community (despite being Hindu) and I know of only one Ásatrú who was racist (as well as a die-hard literalist). The majority ( even if they are more Folkish oriented), while very proud of their ancestry and heritage, are no where near racist.

 

[The Hammer]

You'll find 1,000 times more condemnation of that stuff than you'll find support for it. It's an unfortunate stigma. Any religion or philosophy can be co-opted for ill-purpose. The only time I give it even fleeting thought is when someone brings it up... like now. Seriously, and if anyone fits the stereotype, I think I do... short, "husky" (pc for "fat" ), shaved bald, leather-booted and leather jacketed. Nope, I don't even think it's worth thinking about.

But when you read things like 15% of the AZ state prison system is white supremist and Ásatrú/Odinism followers, it is still upsetting.

And I am about as far from the stereotype as you can get... Haha. I look more like an Italian Mobster .

So, what is up with the disparity then between folkish/non-folkish? It seems a lot of the negative stuff ends up along the lines of the Folkish side of the house. I didn't realize people cared that much about their ancestry to preclude another person from a religious path. I am still going to be utilizing the Norse Pantheon in my pursuits, of course, but I am unsure of how far down this path to walk.

 

[Sees]

It's people picking up the Nazi reigns from the last century. Some get so into dislike or hatred for anything non-white/non-Euro they think half-assed venture into the religious, spiritual traditions enhances their pro-white/pro-Euro-ness.

I've been into it 20 years or so and have a Mexican wife and half Mexican kids...never ran into people with a problem with it.

 

[Jainarayan]

... it is still upsetting.

Absolutely, no denying it. And while it's true I say I haven't run into it, I haven't run into it yet. I may or may not ever. Look on the bright side, however many those 15% represent in an absolute number, take comfort that they are in prison.

So, what is up with the disparity then between folkish/non-folkish? It seems a lot of the negative stuff ends up along the lines of the Folkish side of the house.

Think about how many Hindus say you can't be Hindu unless you are Indian. It paints a bad picture of those who don't think that way. There's ethnocentricity and I daresay racism in many groups. Ethnocentricity is a form of racism.

 

[Riverwolf]

Every religion has its crazies.

We're unfortunate enough to have our crazies also associated with Neo-Nazis.

Screw 'em.

As for Folkism, it honestly doesn't even make sense to me. Especially those of us who live in the US, or other salad bowl/melting pot countries, we generally don't have one ancestry. I'm Greek, Irish, and English. I've probably got dozens more in there. But except for those from the past couple of centuries, they're so thin as to be basically meaningless.

 

[The Hammer]

It's people picking up the Nazi reigns from the last century. Some get so into dislike or hatred for anything non-white/non-Euro they think half-assed venture into the religious, spiritual traditions enhances their pro-white/pro-Euro-ness.

I've been into it 20 years or so and have a Mexican wife and half Mexican kids...never ran into people with a problem with it.

I did also read that a lot of it is tied into old Nazism, which is weird, could of sworn those guys were Christian, but whatever.

That is good to hear that you have not encountered any problems in the last 20 years, always reassuring.

Absolutely, no denying it. And while it's true I say I haven't run into it, I haven't run into it yet. I may or may not ever. Look on the bright side, however many those 15% represent in an absolute number, take comfort that they are in prison.

Think about how many Hindus say you can't be Hindu unless you are Indian. It paints a bad picture of those who don't think that way. There's ethnocentricity and I daresay racism in many groups. Ethnocentricity is a form of racism.

Fair enough, definitely glad those people are in prison. I am not a fan of racism, or ethnocentrism (which, yes, is a form of racism), especially when it comes to religious beliefs. I understand upholding culture and tradition to keep ones heritage, but to deny others the ability to participate, because they are not from that culture or ethnic background is ridiculous.

Plus, if I told someone I was a follower of the Norse Traditions, and they told me I couldn't be because I was Italian, I would tell them to **** off haha. It's really none of there business. But, on the other hand, to find something I am attracted to, that I see kindred spirits in, then to turn and have said kindred shun you, discouraging. But obviously, not the norm it would seem.

 

[The Hammer]

Every religion has its crazies.

We're unfortunate enough to have our crazies also associated with Neo-Nazis.

Screw 'em.

As for Folkism, it honestly doesn't even make sense to me. Especially those of us who live in the US, or other salad bowl/melting pot countries, we generally don't have one ancestry. I'm Greek, Irish, and English. I've probably got dozens more in there. But except for those from the past couple of centuries, they're so thin as to be basically meaningless.

It is an unfortunate group to be lumped with surely.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I am a fellow American as well, and my ancestry is ridiculously cobbled. Italian (mostly), German, Irish, and my adopted side (so not blood, but still kin) is Greek.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Don't want to barge in, but I just wanted to add some info.

The racist forms of Heathenry have their roots in 19th century Romantic Nationalism and the Germanic mysticism that emerged in the 19th to early 20th centuries. Then came the Nazis, who were strongly influenced by both and twisted Germanic Paganism to their own ends. After the war, this twisted version of Heathenry spread to the English speaking countries and it's gradually replaced the racist Christian Identity sects that were popular among racists in English speaking countries.

Also, no - the Nazis were not Christian. I discuss that in this post: Do You Think Muslims Are Violent? | Page 14 | ReligiousForums.com

So the racist forms of Heathenry are a modern invention. Just disregard it and stick to sources based on verifiable history.

 

[Jainarayan]

I did also read that a lot of it is tied into old Nazism, which is weird, could of sworn those guys were Christian, but whatever.

They were nominally Christian, they claimed to be Christian. Himmler wanted to return the German people to their roots in the pagan past. He envisioned a resurrection of the old Pagan religion(s). But his idea went horribly awry. He had the right idea, but the idea became warped and twisted. If the idea went the way he planned the Pagan ways would probably be just another way of life in this world.

Plus, if I told someone I was a follower of the Norse Traditions, and they told me I couldn't be because I was Italian, I would tell them to **** off haha. It's really none of there business. But, on the other hand, to find something I am attracted to, that I see kindred spirits in, then to turn and have said kindred shun you, discouraging. But obviously, not the norm it would seem.

I'm learning to be careful whom I reveal things to. I was in my local New Age-y shop yesterday (actually helping the manager properly organize the Hindu, Taoist and Buddhist deities on the shelves and say who was who ), and talking to her and her new assistant, a 20-something guy. I told her that the owner needed to get some Viking accessories. They have one blowing horn. Her assistant and I started talking about it. He showed me his Celtic Triple Knot (Triquetra) tattoo, I showed him my Mjolnir, I asked if he ever saw the Thirteenth Warrior. He said "are you kidding?" (that was a big yes, of course). I recited the "Lo there do I see my father ... " prayer, and his face lit up. He asked if I was Odinist. I said no, though some people see no difference in Odinism from any form of Asatru. I would never have gotten into it but that he showed me his tattoo after I asked for Viking accessories.

Btw in the Thor movies Mjolnir shows the Celtic Triple Knot fading in and out.

 

[Riverwolf]

It is an unfortunate group to be lumped with surely.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I am a fellow American as well, and my ancestry is ridiculously cobbled. Italian (mostly), German, Irish, and my adopted side (so not blood, but still kin) is Greek.

Same.

A major philosophy of mine is that family isn't based on blood, but bond. Odin and Loki were brothers, even though from different Tribes.

My ancestors are twofold: I have my genetic ancestors, and my cultural-linguistic ancestors. Both are worth honoring, faults and all, but my focus on Northern European Paganism is based more on the latter than the former.

 

[Riverwolf]

I asked if he ever saw the Thirteenth Warrior. He said "are you kidding?" (that was a big yes, of course).

....I feel a bit left out. I never saw that.

Btw in the Thor movies Mjolnir shows the Celtic Triple Knot fading in and out.

I understand that sort of Knotwork was pretty common among Northern Folks, Celtic and Germanic, and I'd wager that it existed among the other linguistic groups as well.

The Mjolnir Pendent I have doesn't have the Triple Knot, but it does have some Knotwork in its design. I'm pretty much of the mindset that the Continental Celtic and Germanic speaking folks shared a pan-culture.

 

[Jainarayan]

....I feel a bit left out. I never saw that.

O my Gods, rent it. Very Beowulf-ish. I'll probably buy my own copy from Suncoast Video. Btw, I just got a bilingual (OE & mod. E) copy of Beowulf, Seamus Heaney.

I understand that sort of Knotwork was pretty common among Northern Folks, Celtic and Germanic, and I'd wager that it existed among the other linguistic groups as well.

The Mjolnir Pendent I have doesn't have the Triple Knot, but it does have some Knotwork in its design. I'm pretty much of the mindset that the Continental Celtic and Germanic speaking folks shared a pan-culture.

Definitely. The Celts inhabited what is now France, as did the Germanics, so I think there's no doubt of cultural and genetic exchange.

My Mjolnir has some intertwining scrolls but I can't make it out. It may just be random decoration by the artist.

 

[Riverwolf]

O my Gods, rent it. Very Beowulf-ish. I'll probably buy my own copy from Suncoast Video. Btw, I just got a bilingual (OE & mod. E) copy of Beowulf, Seamus Heaney.

That's the one I have, and it's a major source of my inspiration, linguistic and spiritual(Christian elements notwithstanding; I generally am of the pet-opinion that, because the manuscript we have was written by a monk, the version we have was for that same audience, and so needed Christian elements to justify its existence; I'd be willing to bet that the poem as it was heard in taverns and around campfires didn't have them).

Granted, Heaney's translation isn't so much a "translation" so much as an "adaptation" of the verses into Modern English poetry, but I think that's the best way to do it. It's not dry scholarship; it's poetry.

Definitely. The Celts inhabited what is now France, as did the Germanics, so I think there's no doubt of cultural and genetic exchange.

My Mjolnir has some intertwining scrolls but I can't make it out. It may just be random decoration by the artist.

Nice. ^_^

It's why I use the term "Northern Folk". I don't even use Celto-Germanic anymore, because of my unresearched suspicion that the other linguistic groups of the region (Slavic, Finnic, Saami, etc.) were part of that pan-culture.

 

[Sees]

13th Warrior is good stuff

 

[EyeofOdin]

So, I have been taking a look into Norse Mythology and Asatru the last couple of days. And I have to say that it looks very interesting and given some recent events, my interests have been piqued.

Now, here comes the issue I am seeing. What is up with all the white supremacy and neo-nazi garbage? As an outsider just tentatively dipping his toes into Norse mythology, Religion, and culture; this is, to say the least, very disconcerning and discouraging, by the large. For one, I am heavily liberal in most regards haha, and two, would not want to get lumped with said group of individuals either.

I don't know if I really had any questions, or really just wanted to put my ideas down in a forum setting.

Heathenry is practiced by a diverse community, most having a certain synonym of Heathenry associated with it. That community can be lain out as a political spectrum from synonyms of Heathenry and Heathen organizations having most liberal tendencies to the ones with the most conservative. At that, someone can be a progressive but be in a sect with mostly republicans and vice-versa.

The Troth- Universalist Asatru Organization, or a Heathen organization which accepts people of multiple ethnicities into the practicing groups as members.

Asatru Folk Assembly- Folkish Asatru Organization, who doesn't accept people into the kindreds as members who aren't of Germanic European descent. They don't officially value different ethnicities less, but officially state that they encourage other ethno-linguistic native peoples to seek their indigenous, polytheistic heritage. Some may call this raicial segregation while others would call this cultural conservation. Homophobia isn't officially addressed in this organization but, because of the themes, is lightly higher than in other organizations.Stephen McNallen's wife told me personally that it'd be better that I seek The Troth.

Odinism- A movement ither more or less "folkish" depending on whom you talk to than The Asatru Folk Assembly. Some say "in the eyes of the gods there is no chosen peoples", while others define Odinism as the spiritual veneration of the "Aryan ancestral gods indented to embed the white races in a sacred worldview that supports their tribal feeling" (Nordic Racial Paganism).

Wotanism- A white supremacist, neo-Nazi, Heathen movement.

Most Independent Heathen Kindreds, like my own, tend to be either Universalist or having a mix of members with Universalist and Folkish views, but permitting people of other ethno-linguistic origins to become members.

Myself and another member are, technically, "Universalist" while two have no opinions on ancestralism regarding race and the other two are Folkish in ideology but mutually agree that discrimination based on ethnicity shouldn't be an aspect of the kindred.

I can personally tell you that as Heathens looking to reconstruct the worldview of our ancestors, from what I can see, "race" and the idea of ethnic identity, is very arbitrary and would be very foreign to the ancestors as opposed to cultural identity

 

[Ingledsva]

But when you read things like 15% of the AZ state prison system is white supremist and Ásatrú/Odinism followers, it is still upsetting.

And I am about as far from the stereotype as you can get... Haha. I look more like an Italian Mobster .

So, what is up with the disparity then between folkish/non-folkish? It seems a lot of the negative stuff ends up along the lines of the Folkish side of the house. I didn't realize people cared that much about their ancestry to preclude another person from a religious path. I am still going to be utilizing the Norse Pantheon in my pursuits, of course, but I am unsure of how far down this path to walk.

Yeah - but just think about how many more of them are Christian!

You just need to look for a group in your area that isn't a white supremacy group. Some of the Major groups online, have lists of local state groups, and their contact numbers.


*

 

[The Hammer]

Heathenry is practiced by a diverse community, most having a certain synonym of Heathenry associated with it. That community can be lain out as a political spectrum from synonyms of Heathenry and Heathen organizations having most liberal tendencies to the ones with the most conservative. At that, someone can be a progressive but be in a sect with mostly republicans and vice-versa.

The Troth- Universalist Asatru Organization, or a Heathen organization which accepts people of multiple ethnicities into the practicing groups as members.

Asatru Folk Assembly- Folkish Asatru Organization, who doesn't accept people into the kindreds as members who aren't of Germanic European descent. They don't officially value different ethnicities less, but officially state that they encourage other ethno-linguistic native peoples to seek their indigenous, polytheistic heritage. Some may call this raicial segregation while others would call this cultural conservation. Homophobia isn't officially addressed in this organization but, because of the themes, is lightly higher than in other organizations.Stephen McNallen's wife told me personally that it'd be better that I seek The Troth.

Odinism- A movement ither more or less "folkish" depending on whom you talk to than The Asatru Folk Assembly. Some say "in the eyes of the gods there is no chosen peoples", while others define Odinism as the spiritual veneration of the "Aryan ancestral gods indented to embed the white races in a sacred worldview that supports their tribal feeling" (Nordic Racial Paganism).

Wotanism- A white supremacist, neo-Nazi, Heathen movement.

Most Independent Heathen Kindreds, like my own, tend to be either Universalist or having a mix of members with Universalist and Folkish views, but permitting people of other ethno-linguistic origins to become members.

Myself and another member are, technically, "Universalist" while two have no opinions on ancestralism regarding race and the other two are Folkish in ideology but mutually agree that discrimination based on ethnicity shouldn't be an aspect of the kindred.

I can personally tell you that as Heathens looking to reconstruct the worldview of our ancestors, from what I can see, "race" and the idea of ethnic identity, is very arbitrary and would be very foreign to the ancestors as opposed to cultural identity

That is great info, thank you. Very glad you cleared that up. Looks like I need to look into either The Troth and other universalist side of the house, or possibly find out my actual genetic ancestry and see how much Germanic (if any) that I actually have , if I decide later to pursue Asatru.
Thanks again.

 

[The Hammer]

13th Warrior is good stuff

The 13th warrior is such an awesome freaking movie!!! I loved every minute of it ^_^