Qur'an question: what's the significance of direct revelation?

[Superscript]

You are twisting the actual word in the verse which say sky and not heavens,as the verse is talking about one sky whereas there are still 6 more upper skies which differ from our sky

الَّذِي جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ فِرَاشًا وَالسَّمَاءَ بِنَاءً وَأَنْزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَخْرَجَ بِهِ مِنَ الثَّمَرَاتِ رِزْقًا لَكُمْ فَلَا تَجْعَلُوا لِلَّهِ أَنْدَادًا وَأَنْتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ
Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better). (22)

So i think your claim failed to prove that the sky isn't protecting our earth as the quran confirmed,that is clear scientific fact my friend that the sky protecting our earth,so i don't know why you are still insisting to disagree just because the quran had mentioned it.

No the verse is very clear and have been explained perfectly but of course it is up to you whether you want to accept it or not.

Stop equating sky with Ozone layer, they're not the same and claiming that this verse is speaking about the Ozone layer would mean that this is a scientific error. The Ozone layer is in the sky, NOT the sky. A sophisticated knowledgeable being would know how to explain it if he knew what it was, but clearly they did not know what an Ozone layer was and they simply meant the sky is a ceiling. Furthermore, the verse I was talking about is this:

الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا ۖ مَّا تَرَىٰ فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ مِن تَفَاوُتٍ ۖ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَىٰ مِن فُطُورٍ

ثُمَّ ارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ كَرَّتَيْنِ يَنقَلِبْ إِلَيْكَ الْبَصَرُ خَاسِئًا وَهُوَ حَسِيرٌ

The word فُطُورٍ means broken, cracked, or opening. This is a challenge asking if there are any cracks in the heavens. If you swing this verse indicating that this is the sky, then the Quran treats the sky as a ceiling (Scientifically wrong), and if the Quran treats this as the Ozone layer (Which is still scientifically wrong considering that the Ozone is not the sky), then the Quran fails the challenge because the Ozone has a hole in it.

Earlier in this thread I believe you mentioned that the Quran is a miracle because of the way it's written. If this is the Quran's way of explaining the Ozone layer, then I must say that it's a quite disappointing description.

Regarding that silly argument that the words isn't directly from god because there is few words which you believe wasn't arabic before some thousands of years ago is itself a prove that it is a nonsense argument aimed to put some doubts on the dignity of the holy quran.

I believe the word is not direct not because of some silly arguments about non-Arabic words, but of how silly religion is to begin with. There's no evidence for a direct message or any message for that matter. It's a human made up religion just like all the other religions.

 

[FearGod]

Stop equating sky with Ozone layer, they're not the same and claiming that this verse is speaking about the Ozone layer would mean that this is a scientific error. The Ozone layer is in the sky, NOT the sky. A sophisticated knowledgeable being would know how to explain it if he knew what it was, but clearly they did not know what an Ozone layer was and they simply meant the sky is a ceiling. Furthermore, the verse I was talking about is this:

الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا ۖ مَّا تَرَىٰ فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ مِن تَفَاوُتٍ ۖ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَىٰ مِن فُطُورٍ

ثُمَّ ارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ كَرَّتَيْنِ يَنقَلِبْ إِلَيْكَ الْبَصَرُ خَاسِئًا وَهُوَ حَسِيرٌ

The word فُطُورٍ means broken, cracked, or opening. This is a challenge asking if there are any cracks in the heavens. If you swing this verse indicating that this is the sky, then the Quran treats the sky as a ceiling (Scientifically wrong), and if the Quran treats this as the Ozone layer (Which is still scientifically wrong considering that the Ozone is not the sky), then the Quran fails the challenge because the Ozone has a hole in it.

Earlier in this thread I believe you mentioned that the Quran is a miracle because of the way it's written. If this is the Quran's way of explaining the Ozone layer, then I must say that it's a quite disappointing description.

Now you are mixing things up as the verse you are presenting now is talking about the 7 heavens and not our sky

الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا مَا تَرَىٰ فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ مِنْ تَفَاوُتٍ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَىٰ مِنْ فُطُورٍ
[Hallowed be] He who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no fault wilt thou see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn thy vision [upon it] once more: canst thou see any flaw? (67:3)

ثُمَّ ارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ كَرَّتَيْنِ يَنْقَلِبْ إِلَيْكَ الْبَصَرُ خَاسِئًا وَهُوَ حَسِيرٌ
Yea, turn thy vision [upon it] again and yet again: [and every time] thy vision will fall back upon thee, dazzled and truly defeated.... (67:4)

Now your problem is that the ozone layer is not the sky but a part of the sky.
and by same logic i found a problem that god said that he made earth a living place for us,then there is a mistake that there are oceans in earth then how it is a place of living for us,he should say the lands of earth and not the whole earth,that is your logic which looks funny.

I believe the word is not direct not because of some silly arguments about non-Arabic words, but of how silly religion is to begin with. There's no evidence for a direct message or any message for that matter. It's a human made up religion just like all the other religions.

it is of course up to you if you don't believe about the deity and that you think everything have been occured by coincidences and you came to earth by coincidence and to live for a specific limited years and that you have to exploit each second of your life for entertainment.

Whomsoever God desires to guide, He expands his breast to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his breast narrow, tight, as if he were climbing to heaven. So God lays abomination upon those who believe not. (6:125)

i think that is true and god knows better whom deserved to be guided.

[youtube]mkGw8lXVRUA[/youtube]
Street Dawah Australia 6 Reverts in One day - YouTube

 

[Superscript]

Now you are mixing things up as the verse you are presenting now is talking about the 7 heavens and not our sky

الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا مَا تَرَىٰ فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ مِنْ تَفَاوُتٍ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَىٰ مِنْ فُطُورٍ
[Hallowed be] He who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no fault wilt thou see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn thy vision [upon it] once more: canst thou see any flaw? (67:3)

ثُمَّ ارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ كَرَّتَيْنِ يَنْقَلِبْ إِلَيْكَ الْبَصَرُ خَاسِئًا وَهُوَ حَسِيرٌ
Yea, turn thy vision [upon it] again and yet again: [and every time] thy vision will fall back upon thee, dazzled and truly defeated.... (67:4)

Now your problem is that the ozone layer is not the sky but a part of the sky.
and by same logic i found a problem that god said that he made earth a living place for us,then there is a mistake that there are oceans in earth then how it is a place of living for us,he should say the lands of earth and not the whole earth,that is your logic which looks funny.

Ironically, if you search in world history about the 7 heavens and read up on ancient Astrology, you'll find that the 7 heavens were what the ancient (Pagan) people believed in (Another thing Islam adopted). This same concept is found in the likes of Judaism and Hinduism today. It's basically the 7 objects/planets that humans were able to observe in the ancient times in the sky which were the Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, Venus, and Mercury. Either way, the whole thing sounds unscientific, which is further proof on the lack of scientific knowledge in the Quran.

Btw, whether God makes sense in the Quran or not is not my issue (I already know there are many things he makes no sense in), so your whole thing about him saying the earth is a living place but the oceans should not be included is what you believe in. Even though the oceans IS a living place with many creatures living down there which even includes mammals like us. So once again you're wrong.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

....science found out that the ozone got the ability to heal itself Ozone hole shrinking, says scientist - National - NZ Herald News

My quetion is, Quran says sky or Heaven.... How do Muslims know, that the intention of Quran is to say, the Ozon Layer? Are there any Hadithes to back this up? I understand that, Muhammad spoke according to the words that existed at that time, and perhaps Ozon was unknown. But at least, is there a Hadith to explain these verses farther and what does the sky protects us against? For example against the light of the Sun, agains the falling objects?

For example, the sky cannot protect us against falling stones from sky. Or if there is big hails falling down, it can still harm us. So, how does sky protect us?

Because, Quran says in verse 3:7, that no one knows its interpretation, so, my question is, if there is an Authentic Hadith from Muhammad that we can rely on 100% in order to understand Quran. It seems to me, there are a lot of man-made tafseers, but how can we really trust, to know what was for sure the meaning of the verses?

 

[FearGod]

Ironically, if you search in world history about the 7 heavens and read up on ancient Astrology, you'll find that the 7 heavens were what the ancient (Pagan) people believed in (Another thing Islam adopted). This same concept is found in the likes of Judaism and Hinduism today. It's basically the 7 objects/planets that humans were able to observe in the ancient times in the sky which were the Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, Venus, and Mercury. Either way, the whole thing sounds unscientific, which is further proof on the lack of scientific knowledge in the Quran.

This short video explain it in an easy way that you could understand.

[youtube]CVKJWzH2uC4[/youtube]
The ScientificMiracles Of The Holy Quran 05 ( The Sky as a Protected Roof ) - YouTube

Btw, whether God makes sense in the Quran or not is not my issue (I already know there are many things he makes no sense in), so your whole thing about him saying the earth is a living place but the oceans should not be included is what you believe in. Even though the oceans IS a living place with many creatures living down there which even includes mammals like us. So once again you're wrong.

The ocean isn't a living place for us,god in the quran is talking to us and not to animals.

amazingly you are accepting the earth as whole to be a living place for us whereas you are refusing to accept the ozone as part of our sky.

 

[Superscript]

This short video explain it in an easy way that you could understand.

Once again, your videos are preaching what you're preaching by taking into assumption that the Ozone layer in the Quran is being called sky. This is incorrect scientifically.

The ocean isn't a living place for us,god in the quran is talking to us and not to animals.

amazingly you are accepting the earth as whole to be a living place for us whereas you are refusing to accept the ozone as part of our sky.

a) We are animals according to science.

b) The Ozone layer is "PART" of the sky, NOT the sky. If the Quran was so sophisticated it would have been capable enough to explain it in such manner. It's not very hard to say "We put a ceiling in the sky to protect you" is it? Instead, it says "we made the sky a ceiling".

 

[FearGod]

Once again, your videos are preaching what you're preaching by taking into assumption that the Ozone layer in the Quran is being called sky. This is incorrect scientifically.

No it isn't preaching but you are thinking of it to be so

a) We are animals according to science.

b) The Ozone layer is "PART" of the sky, NOT the sky. If the Quran was so sophisticated it would have been capable enough to explain it in such manner. It's not very hard to say "We put a ceiling in the sky to protect you" is it? Instead, it says "we made the sky a ceiling".

So you are thinking that they were thinking of the sky as a solid matter,but that can't be true when checking other verses which make it clear that the sky is a space and not a solid matter.

Do they not see the birds held (flying) in the midst of the sky? None holds them but Allah [none gave them the ability to fly but Allah]. Verily, in this are clear proofs and signs for people who believe (in the Oneness of Allah). (16:79)

So what do you think ,the birds were flying on the ceiling.

 

[Superscript]

So you are thinking that they were thinking of the sky as a solid matter,but that can't be true when checking other verses which make it clear that the sky is a space and not a solid matter.

Do they not see the birds held (flying) in the midst of the sky? None holds them but Allah [none gave them the ability to fly but Allah]. Verily, in this are clear proofs and signs for people who believe (in the Oneness of Allah). (16:79)

So what do you think ,the birds were flying on the ceiling.

It's very interesting how you jump to a different verse yet somehow find a way to dig yourself in more trouble. Ok, let's examine the verse you just provided in Arabic:

أَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى الطَّيْرِ مُسَخَّرَاتٍ فِي جَوِّ السَّمَاءِ مَا يُمْسِكُهُنَّ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ إِنَّ فِي ذَ*ٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Do you know what the word جَوِّ means?

It means atmosphere, do you know what the scientific definition of atmosphere is? It means "The mixture of gases surrounding the Earth or other celestial body, held in place by gravity". What does this mean for this verse? The following:

a) The sky is not a celestial body nor does it have gravity.

a) Based on the scientific definition, the birds don't fly in the sky's atmosphere, but the Earth's (Another scientific error in the Quran since it claims the sky's atmosphere).

b) It's funny how the Quran uses the word "Atmosphere" here (Which is a more fitting word for a protective shield for the Earth), yet not be capable enough to use it in the same manner to explain it as a ceiling for the Earth, instead, it uses sky.

So where do we go from here? I don't know, but maybe anyone thinking of joining a religion or a cult should think twice before jumping ahead and believing this non-sense without proper inspection. But that's up to the individual I guess, if they want to believe in flying pigs, fire dragons, and santa clause, who am I to stop them?

 

[FearGod]

It's very interesting how you jump to a different verse yet somehow find a way to dig yourself in more trouble. Ok, let's examine the verse you just provided in Arabic:

No,i'm not in trouble because i trust my faith,so don't worry.

أَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى الطَّيْرِ مُسَخَّرَاتٍ فِي جَوِّ السَّمَاءِ مَا يُمْسِكُهُنَّ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ إِنَّ فِي ذَ*ٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍلِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Do you know what the word جَوِّ means?

i know what it means,but is it a joke that caused you to laugh

It means atmosphere, do you know what the scientific definition of atmosphere is? It means "The mixture of gases surrounding the Earth or other celestial body, held in place by gravity". What does this mean for this verse? The following:.

Really,you are still making silly arguements by claiming that the atmosphere is not a part of our sky,you are not knowing such information while you are in the 21th century.

For your information and hope it will help you to understand and stop such nonsense

The sky, also known as the celestial dome, commonly refers to everything that lies a certain distance above the surface of Earth, including the atmosphere and the rest of outer space.

a) The sky is not a celestial body nor does it have gravity.

The atmosphere is part of sky.

a) Based on the scientific definition, the birds don't fly in the sky's atmosphere, but the Earth's (Another scientific error in the Quran since it claims the sky's atmosphere).

Really the birds don't fly in the sky.are you kidding

[youtube]bxaFNjdIKDw[/youtube]
Bird Flying In The Sky - YouTube

b) It's funny how the Quran uses the word "Atmosphere" here (Which is a more fitting word for a protective shield for the Earth), yet not be capable enough to use it in the same manner to explain it as a ceiling for the Earth, instead, it uses sky.

:areyoucra Still you can't understand that it is a part of our sky similar to the ozone,oh my god.

So where do we go from here? I don't know, but maybe anyone thinking of joining a religion or a cult should think twice before jumping ahead and believing this non-sense without proper inspection. But that's up to the individual I guess, if they want to believe in flying pigs, fire dragons, and santa clause, who am I to stop them?

Yes you are the wise and they are lost.

 

[Superscript]

I'm laughing because the Quran says the sky has an atmosphere when in reality it's the earth's atmosphere, and it's even more funnier that there are people following such non-sense and preaching it as a modern science.

If these are your scientific evidences and you want to shut yourself from modern science, be my guest.

 

[FearGod]

I'm laughing because the Quran says the sky has an atmosphere when in reality it's the earth's atmosphere, and it's even more funnier that there are people following such non-sense and preaching it as a modern science.

If these are your scientific evidences and you want to shut yourself from modern science, be my guest.

Good reason to laugh but the problem that the atmosphere is part of eath's sky.
so if you say the earth's ozone,then in your logic it isn't belong to sky,but to earth.

We are not preaching but discussing and i am not asking you to believe in anything.

 

[Superscript]

Good reason to laugh but the problem that the atmosphere is part of eath's sky.
so if you say the earth's ozone,then in your logic it isn't belong to sky,but to earth.

Well that's how you put it, not what the Quran says. Anyways, this feels like beating a dead-horse. I have my my scientific evidence that I'm happy with, and I'm pretty sure you're happy with what you have. I think it's all there for everyone to read and they can read it in any way they please.

 

[FearGod]

Well that's how you put it, not what the Quran says. Anyways, this feels like beating a dead-horse. I have my my scientific evidence that I'm happy with, and I'm pretty sure you're happy with what you have. I think it's all there for everyone to read and they can read it in any way they please.

Yes,true
everone got the free-will to think and choose the way he wish.

 

[F0uad]

The verse comes across as a challenge which says do you actually see a break in the sky? If you equate this sky with the Ozone layer, then the challenge is failed due to the hole. The other thing is, the verse has no clue what the Ozone layer is, because the word used here is "سموت" (On a different note, this shows the background of the real Arabic, like Aramaic and Hebrew, because in modern Arabic this would be "سموات"). Anyways, this word means "Heavens", the Ozone layer is made out of gasses, the Quran explains that God created the "Heavens" as a ceiling or a roof. The Ozone layer is not "Heavens", it's a layer of gas similar to air.

Well you seem confused you first say that there is a contradiction if the Quran did say that there is a Ozone-Layer but then later agree.

Secondly your misinterpreting the verse this is what it says: And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and wellguarded.

A roof is something that is above your head and that roof is protected with other words: The Sky (Called heaven this time) is our roof and is protected. I never put Ozone-Layer in the story you did, you said it was a scientific error and put the Ozone in the discussion not me.

You see this is the problem when you try to interpret things. In some verses, when the words are clear, you jump right away and say there it is in black and white, but when the verse says something you have a hard time with, you try to manipulate things to fit your agenda. Either you accept the book for what it is or you don't, there's no in between.

Who was the one interpreting the verse saying Ozone-Layer you did not us or me go back several pages and look at your statements.

This basically tells me that the Quran was written by Arab men of that era that wrote and spoke in a language that was influenced by neighboring languages of the region. Sounds like a pretty normal situation to me, nothing miraculous as you claim about the divinity of the Quran (Which is what the topic is all about anyways). More on this point below.

Serious? Well i never made such allegations please provide me some evidence for this. Also you haven't addressed anything i said.

1- We first need to prove that there was an Ishmael before we can prove what language he spoke/wrote in, until then, this point is moot.

Well if your not a Christian or a Jew then ok since the idea in all three religion is that Ishmeal son of Abraham (peace be upon them) are the fore-fathers of the Arabs some have traced back there lineage.

2- Unlike some other major regions, Mecca and Medina were not as major as you think in terms of trading places due to their location. Even if they were major trading places, it would be mostly merchants that pass through. Words entering a language like that are usually due to a major population influence (Invasions, migrations, etc). Out of the few foreign merchants, it's illogical to think that they were able to change their populations when they went back home.

Populations? What are you saying. Its well recorded and maybe if you took some history lessons you would know that people copied words from different cultures if they didn't have words for it. I can take my own Berber Culture as a example.

Now speaking of migrations, you will agree with me because it's in your history that the city of Yathrib had many Jewish families that migrated there around the 2nd/3rd century. If you know anything about the Jews of those times you would know that their first language was Aramaic, but they still had knowledge of Hebrew and have been exposed to the likes of Greeks, Romans, Iranians (Persians, Medes, Parthians), etc (they ran away there due to the Roman-Persian wars). Fast forward 300-500 years and you have a decent explanation where the Quran might have gotten its foreign elements from. On the other hand, let's not forget that Arabic did indeed influence many other languages after the expansion of Islam. Ironically, a lot of these words in question are not used in modern Arabic. This indicates that the writers of the Quran were indeed influenced by these foreign languages, but the same cannot be said for all the Arabs. Which means either the writers of the Quran were influenced themselves, or they themselves were ethnically non-Arab.

These are theories without evidence and laughable since we have detailed information regarding the preservation, who memorized it, who quoted and said what. Not to forget that the Quresh dialect only existed between Arabs your mixing the Tribes of Medina with those of Mecca and the Quresh. Your also forgetting the notion that the first revelation came into the Quresh dialect. Aramaic is not a different language from Hebrew its simply a different dialect.

3- What's your dictionary of choice? We can use that if you like. Some of the words will be found, while others won't. Unless future Muslims start taking notice of these issues and create newer dictionaries, it is what it is. You don't have to take my words, but I know where the scholarly opinion stands.

Sure show me Arab dictionary prior to Mohammed(saws) that directly comes from the Quresh Tribe that uses different words. Not to forget even if you do provide such evidence it still means nothing since Tabari himself said there are foreign words.

4- I don't understand what you're asking here.

You made a bold statement by saying ''Then you have the argument against the pureness of the Arabic in the Quran'' i gave you a counter argument that goes as follow: 16:103- And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: "It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad SAW)." The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur'ân) is a clear Arabic tongue. The Word here is clear and not Pure.

5- There's hardly any proper evidence what Mohammad or his companions really did, let alone how they interpreted things? You need to differentiate between evidence, speculations, and traditions. In this matter:

a) Evidence = Solid proof
b) Speculations = Educational guesses
c) Traditions = Faith

Seems like I lean between a and b while you and the rest of the other Muslims sit between c and b.

I think its hypocrisy to take accept one but reject the other when they come from the same Authors/Chain of Narrations also your conclusions here makes no sense.

I have already read tafseers and disagree, so they mean nothing to me. What I'm telling you is my own tafseer.

And you lived with Mohammed(saws) during hes live-time i am not going to take your serious if you haven't something important to say.

For the record, you should do the further research. I'm fluent in Arabic and Aramaic and understand a fair bit of Hebrew too. So when it comes to the Semitic languages and their foundations I have a good background.

What has a preservation to do with Hebrew or Aramaic it seems contradiction one first has to learn Hebrew before learning Aramaic you also sound as troll who just wants to let us belief that your superior in a way. Knowing Arabic or Hebrew doesn't mean anything most of the Muslims know Arabic the problem is to learn Classic Arabic and the depth of it.

Advice: Stop mixing your arguments

 

[Superscript]

Well you seem confused you first say that there is a contradiction if the Quran did say that there is a Ozone-Layer but then later agree.

Secondly your misinterpreting the verse this is what it says: And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and wellguarded.

A roof is something that is above your head and that roof is protected with other words: The Sky (Called heaven this time) is our roof and is protected. I never put Ozone-Layer in the story you did, you said it was a scientific error and put the Ozone in the discussion not me.


Who was the one interpreting the verse saying Ozone-Layer you did not us or me go back several pages and look at your statements.

I was not the one who brought up the Ozone layer, FearGod did. I was simply saying that the Quran does not say anything about an Ozone layer.

Second, the verses over and over again consider the sky as a roof. Perhaps in your own interpretation you can manipulate the meaning of it to those who don't understand Arabic. I don't need Muslim tafseers.

One more thing, the sky is an open space and does not need to be well guarded, but if you're implying this to the Earth, it's actually not very well guarded and science has proven that we've been blasted by many asteroids that have caused major damage in the past. Quite a shield God has put up to protect us, ohh wait a second, all these asteroids are from Allah I guess

Serious? Well i never made such allegations please provide me some evidence for this. Also you haven't addressed anything i said.

The proof is right there in your language. If you don't deny the existence of foreign words in the Quran, then what's the logical explanation? Did God run out of Arabic words or something? Or perhaps he was in the mood to say the words sometimes in Arabic while other times in foreign words.

Well if your not a Christian or a Jew then ok since the idea in all three religion is that Ishmeal son of Abraham (peace be upon them) are the fore-fathers of the Arabs some have traced back there lineage.

I think I've made it very clear that I don't believe in religion, and I agree, it's an idea based on faith, not evidence.

Populations? What are you saying. Its well recorded and maybe if you took some history lessons you would know that people copied words from different cultures if they didn't have words for it. I can take my own Berber Culture as a example.

Yea, a few merchants are gonna change a nation's entire lexicon, that's logical.

These are theories without evidence and laughable since we have detailed information regarding the preservation, who memorized it, who quoted and said what. Not to forget that the Quresh dialect only existed between Arabs your mixing the Tribes of Medina with those of Mecca and the Quresh. Your also forgetting the notion that the first revelation came into the Quresh dialect. Aramaic is not a different language from Hebrew its simply a different dialect.

This reminds me of a few Pakistani friends I had who swore by everything they owned that they came from Mohammad's family. They carried the Sayyid surname and had all kind of family traditions from family trees to oral claims. Then one day I convinced them to test their Y-DNA (Which is an unbroken chain passed down from fathers to sons). Long and behold, their Y-DNA turned out to be native to South Asia. Instead of finally waking up and accepting the reality, being devoted Muslims they quickly dismissed the DNA test

The point is, you can claim that you preserve the Quran all you want, it does not make a difference because Islam is not the only religion that preserved things orally. And unless you show me an original copy dating back to Mohammad's days and compare it with what you say today, what you say is simply a claim, nothing more nothing less.

Btw, Aramaic and Hebrew are not different dialects, they're different language. Not sure where you're getting that from but it sounds funny.

Sure show me Arab dictionary prior to Mohammed(saws) that directly comes from the Quresh Tribe that uses different words. Not to forget even if you do provide such evidence it still means nothing since Tabari himself said there are foreign words.

You made a bold statement by saying ''Then you have the argument against the pureness of the Arabic in the Quran'' i gave you a counter argument that goes as follow: 16:103- And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: "It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad SAW)." The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur'ân) is a clear Arabic tongue. The Word here is clear and not Pure.

You're correct, but many Muslims I've met claim the Quran is in pure Arabic. While we agree that the Quran has foreign words, a logical thinker would see this as the writers used a dialect that has outside influences. Because a perfect being that produces perfect books does not let outside influences interfere. Specially when the language itself already has a word that is used in the same source (Tur vs Jabal for example).

And you lived with Mohammed(saws) during hes live-time i am not going to take your serious if you haven't something important to say.

Based on this, you're claiming that I don't know what Mohammad did right? You're right, but we're both on the same boat. Perhaps it's time you admit it too.

What has a preservation to do with Hebrew or Aramaic it seems contradiction one first has to learn Hebrew before learning Aramaic you also sound as troll who just wants to let us belief that your superior in a way. Knowing Arabic or Hebrew doesn't mean anything most of the Muslims know Arabic the problem is to learn Classic Arabic and the depth of it.

Advice: Stop mixing your arguments

Knowing more Semitic language helps you understand further. For example did you know that the Arabic alphabets used during Mohammad's time were only 22 letters? Not only that, but if you tried to read the earliest manuscripts you won't be able to because they don't resemble today's Quran. Furthermore, there has been an old Quran discovered in Yemen (Sana'a manuscript) that not only was different, but differed quite badly that the Muslims tried their best to cover the story. Don't believe me? Go look it up. I guess it's your own version of corruption (Which is what you blame the Christian and Jewish texts with)

The bottom line is, what you have today is a copy of Uthman's Quran, we might as well tag Uthman as the Paul of Islam

 

[Dingbat]

I was not the one who brought up the Ozone layer, FearGod did. I was simply saying that the Quran does not say anything about an Ozone layer.

Second, the verses over and over again consider the sky as a roof. Perhaps in your own interpretation you can manipulate the meaning of it to those who don't understand Arabic. I don't need Muslim tafseers.

One more thing, the sky is an open space and does not need to be well guarded, but if you're implying this to the Earth, it's actually not very well guarded and science has proven that we've been blasted by many asteroids that have caused major damage in the past. Quite a shield God has put up to protect us, ohh wait a second, all these asteroids are from Allah I guess



The proof is right there in your language. If you don't deny the existence of foreign words in the Quran, then what's the logical explanation? Did God run out of Arabic words or something? Or perhaps he was in the mood to say the words sometimes in Arabic while other times in foreign words.

I think I've made it very clear that I don't believe in religion, and I agree, it's an idea based on faith, not evidence.

Yea, a few merchants are gonna change a nation's entire lexicon, that's logical.

This reminds me of a few Pakistani friends I had who swore by everything they owned that they came from Mohammad's family. They carried the Sayyid surname and had all kind of family traditions from family trees to oral claims. Then one day I convinced them to test their Y-DNA (Which is an unbroken chain passed down from fathers to sons). Long and behold, their Y-DNA turned out to be native to South Asia. Instead of finally waking up and accepting the reality, being devoted Muslims they quickly dismissed the DNA test

The point is, you can claim that you preserve the Quran all you want, it does not make a difference because Islam is not the only religion that preserved things orally. And unless you show me an original copy dating back to Mohammad's days and compare it with what you say today, what you say is simply a claim, nothing more nothing less.

Btw, Aramaic and Hebrew are not different dialects, they're different language. Not sure where you're getting that from but it sounds funny.

You're correct, but many Muslims I've met claim the Quran is in pure Arabic. While we agree that the Quran has foreign words, a logical thinker would see this as the writers used a dialect that has outside influences. Because a perfect being that produces perfect books does not let outside influences interfere. Specially when the language itself already has a word that is used in the same source (Tur vs Jabal for example).

Based on this, you're claiming that I don't know what Mohammad did right? You're right, but we're both on the same boat. Perhaps it's time you admit it too.

Knowing more Semitic language helps you understand further. For example did you know that the Arabic alphabets used during Mohammad's time were only 22 letters? Not only that, but if you tried to read the earliest manuscripts you won't be able to because they don't resemble today's Quran. Furthermore, there has been an old Quran discovered in Yemen (Sana'a manuscript) that not only was different, but differed quite badly that the Muslims tried their best to cover the story. Don't believe me? Go look it up. I guess it's your own version of corruption (Which is what you blame the Christian and Jewish texts with)

The bottom line is, what you have today is a copy of Uthman's Quran, we might as well tag Uthman as the Paul of Islam

What an odd exageration of the Sana'a manuscript.
Sana'a manuscript - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Superscript]

What an odd exageration of the Sana'a manuscript.

Of course a Muslim would say that.

 

[Dingbat]

Of course a Muslim would say that.

If you read through the link even non-Muslim academics were saying that. Nice bigotry though bro. Grind that axe a little more.

 

[FearGod]

I was not the one who brought up the Ozone layer, FearGod did. I was simply saying that the Quran does not say anything about an Ozone layer.

i said the Ozone is just a part of sky similar as to the atmosphere is a part of the sky,i can't put words better than god,yes the sky as a whole
is the better word for describing the protecting roof and not just the ozone or the atmosphere separately.

But the argument was that you don't agree that the ozone and atmosphere do belong to sky.so how can i explain it to you.

[youtube]fL6wbsGx9qw [/youtube]

 

[Superscript]

If you read through the link even non-Muslim academics were saying that. Nice bigotry though bro. Grind that axe a little more.

Actually Islamic scholars had admitted that these manuscripts differ from today's Qurans.