Quran give answer to why humans can not find physical being called Allah

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I am happy that you found the way which was suitable for you, as I have found my way in Non-duality.

 

[Spirit of Light]

People believe for three reasons. One is indoctrination from childhood. The other is the fear that they will be ostracized by society or even killed in some countries. The third reason is that a person may not be able to see the untruth hidden in the words. Apologists try to make it as sweet as possible.
How high? Finally he chose a human to do it, and an uneducated human for that matter. If an uneducated human could understand what Allah was trying to say, why would not other humans also be able to understande his message?

A prophet is not uneducated example is Muhammad was in training by an Angel for a long time, and the quran was not given in one go. so Muhammad had spiritual guidance. (except i think skeptics will now ask, how can you know angels exist

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well, I am happy that you found the way which was suitable for you, as I have found my way in Non-duality.

And you know i am happy for you too, that you found answers to your own path

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't give us blah-blah from what some one writeth or sayeth or speaketh. Give me evidence, give me a proof of existence of Allah and his choosing any one as his messenger, this time an uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher.

The whole point of that passage is that God does not give anyone proof of His existence because God wants everyone to sincerely search for Him and determine that He exists by using our own innate intelligence.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The whole point of that passage is that God does not give anyone proof of His existence because God wants everyone to sincerely search for Him and determine that He exists by using our own innate intelligence.

I can relate to this

 

[RestlessSoul]

OK. Just two questions as it applies to skeptics..

Why is there always a need to hide Allah behind a veil?

Dosent it therefore raise a valid red flag that only through someone 'authorized or permitted' can be a messenger or a proxy speaking on behalf of Allah, might suggest something other than what one is led to believe?

The veil is a metaphor for human incomprehension, perhaps? Our human consciousness, miraculous as it is, is simply not up to the job of knowing God; certainly not in the intellectual sense; certainly not in this world. There will always be misunderstanding when man tries to heed and interpret divine inspiration.
The paradox or puzzle here, for me, is that Islam claims to have received, through the Prophet, the precise and unequivocal word of God. Yet words have many meanings, often personal to the hearer or reader.

 

[Shakeel]

because they are often asking for "proof" of Allah, and this verse seems to say they will not find a physical evidence like they wish for, to be able to believe.

But of course there can be other answers too

There are signs everywhere.

Surat ya sin, ayah 71 "Do they not see that We have created for them from what Our hands have made, grazing livestock, and [then] they are their owners?" 72 "And We have tamed them for them, so some of them they ride, and some of them they eat."

Surat Al-Hajj, ayah 73 "O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued."

Surat al-Isra, ayah 88 "Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."

Surat Hud, ayah 13 "Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful."'

Surat al-Nisaa, ayah 82 "Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction."

As for the disbelievers claiming they would believe if they saw this or that.

Surat Al-Baqarah, ayah 6 "As for those who persist in disbelief, it is the same whether you warn them or not—they will never believe."

Surat al-A'raf, ayah 146 "I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. And if they see the way of consciousness, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them."

Surat Al-An'am, ayah 111 "And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant."

 

[Spirit of Light]

There are signs everywhere.

Surat ya sin, ayah 71 "Do they not see that We have created for them from what Our hands have made, grazing livestock, and [then] they are their owners?" 72 "And We have tamed them for them, so some of them they ride, and some of them they eat."

Surat Al-Hajj, ayah 73 "O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued."

Surat al-Isra, ayah 88 "Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."

Surat Hud, ayah 13 "Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful."'

Surat al-Nisaa, ayah 82 "Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction."

As for the disbelievers claiming they would believe if they saw this or that.

Surat Al-Baqarah, ayah 6 "As for those who persist in disbelief, it is the same whether you warn them or not—they will never believe."

Surat al-A'raf, ayah 146 "I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. And if they see the way of consciousness, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them."

Surat Al-An'am, ayah 111 "And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant."

Yes, a believer do see the sign, a disbeliever do not see the sign ( they see it but do not take it as a sign from Allah)

 

[Altfish]

Does this verse in the Quran tell us that we as human beings will not find conclusive evidence of Allah?
Note here that in this discussion/debate I do not ask for critique of Quran or of Allah, only about what a seeker may find of "evidence" or faith when searching for Allah.

Sura 42:51-52
"It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise. And thus have We, by Our command, sent inspiration to thee: thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and What was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will...

So what is the kind of inspiration we can gain from Allah?
Does this verse tell skeptics that they will not find the "solid" evidence they need to believe? (note again, not critique of Allah)

What is the light that is spoken about when the verse say "we have made the quran a light" ?

This is a circular argument.
The Qu'ran tells us all about Allah; including why you can't find him.

 

[Spirit of Light]

This is a circular argument.
The Qu'ran tells us all about Allah; including why you can't find him.

You can not find physical body of Allah (in my understanding) But there is sign all over the place of Allah`s existence, you just have to understand the sign

 

[Altfish]

You can not find physical body of Allah (in my understanding) But there is sign all over the place of Allah`s existence, you just have to understand the sign

...or, Allah doesn't exist.


Now which is it more likely to be?

 

[firedragon]

Maybe the focus should be less on if god exist to answer god questions and more on curiousity and insight.

That will not happen with those who have an obsession and a one track mind.

But, what you said is absolutely right.

 

[Spirit of Light]

...or, Allah doesn't exist.


Now which is it more likely to be?

To me, that Allah exist

 

[firedragon]

The veil is a metaphor for human incomprehension, perhaps?

This veil here is "Hijab" in arabic. You honestly made a good observation, but maybe I can add some light to your statement.

The Quran repeatedly uses this word Hijab to denote a separation, a barrier. As in "Veil of Darkness" which is something that covers your physical vision, not a psychological or intellectual vision. In Arabic the word Khamar is used to denote this intellectual vision or/and psychological vision. A word often referred to Alcohol due to its effect.

Thus in this verse it is definitely speaking about a barrier or veil that causes you to never see with your physical eyes. God will only inspire you, or behind a barrier, or through a messenger. He will never be seen physically.

This understanding also comes from reading the book. As in, its holistic context. The Quran says that there is nothing like God. As in we can never see anything that resembles God. He is not like anything, and there is nothing like him.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

You can not find physical body of Allah (in my understanding) But there is sign all over the place of Allah`s existence, you just have to understand the sign

This is exactly what the Quran is saying. It states in many places exactly what you said.

 

[firedragon]

The whole point of that passage is that God does not give anyone proof of His existence because God wants everyone to sincerely search for Him and determine that He exists by using our own innate intelligence.

Thats not what it states sister my sister.

All over the Quran it speaks of evidence for God lies in observation of the world and universe at large. The proof of God's existence lies there and is stated in the Quran. This particular verse is talking about how God will interact with humans. It is only through Wahy, behind a Hijab, or through a Rasool. Thats it. Lam yakullahu kufuwan ahadun. There is nothing like him. Thus, we can never in our lives see God. Thats the whole point.

 

[RestlessSoul]

This is exactly what the Quran is saying. It states in many places exactly what you said.

Can you recommend a good English translation of the Quran? Does such a thing even exist? I’m a bit old to learn Arabic (or Japanese, or Russian...)

 

[firedragon]

Can you recommend a good English translation of the Quran? Does such a thing even exist? I’m a bit old to learn Arabic (or Japanese, or Russian...)

I recommend Laleh Bakhthiar to you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What inspiration can one get from things which have no evidence?
Why is it not fitting for Allah to speak directly to a person (when he has all the powers to do so) and why only through a mediator?

Things like this convince me it's a mental puppet as it applies to monotheism or puppets in case of polytheism where humans pulls and controls all the strings essentially bringing their God or Gods to life.

It's clearly not the other way around because no God never ever shows up for anything at all.

 

[Nimos]

Sura 42:51-52
"It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise. And thus have We, by Our command, sent inspiration to thee: thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and What was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will...

So what is the kind of inspiration we can gain from Allah?
Does this verse tell skeptics that they will not find the "solid" evidence they need to believe? (note again, not critique of Allah)

What is the light that is spoken about when the verse say "we have made the quran a light" ?

Being an atheist im probably not the type of person you would prefer listening too, so take my opinion for what it is.

But to me this is the same as all other religious text which talk about having faith and trust in something/someone else, because God can't be bothered to deal with those that believe in him.

To me this verse might as well be rewritten into this:

"You as a person is not important enough for Allah to be wanting to spend time on you.. therefore certain "special" people (which Allah apparently trust) will tell you how to understand the Qur'an, So you should just trust in them, because they know best, because Allah say so."

This is nothing, but you putting your trust into what these "special" people tells you is correct, because they know better than you. The question ought to be, how do you know that these people are special? What exactly makes them special and not you? If you don't know why these people are in fact special, then you have no idea if they are inspired by Allah or not, how could you?

The light they are speaking of, is just another way of saying "the ultimate authority", "unquestionable" etc. as I see it.

For a sceptic, it is as I said above, someone claiming to know better, without providing any evidence for it and believers (people like you) just blindly having to accept it without asking for proof of such claim.

Its not unique for the Qur'an, basically all religions follow this approach, someone with "authority", because they have studied something longer than you, and have gotten a title that makes them special knows better than everyone else. Anyone can study to become a priest or whatever title one assign authority too if they want. They might offer an interesting opinion, but they have no valid authority given to them by God.