• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Quran criticism

firedragon

Veteran Member
The word criticism used here is not about making some insults against the Quran or some cut and paste from an Anti Islamic website. Criticism is using criticism techniques.

This thread was to be opened several years ago and sprung up due to another discussion within another topic. Though I cannot really remember the exact discussion due, I presume this is a good enough start.

I look forward to some constructive discussions.

1. What criticism of the Quran have you applied in a structured manner? E.g. Form Criticism!
2. Is every thing you use against the Quran just polemics picked from other peoples apologetics?
3. When a linguistic analysis of a particular narrative is presented are you already prepared to dismiss it?
4. Textual criticism came into play. Thus what are your text critical analyses that needs a response to?

I would like to recommend an approach to something like a word analysis. If a meaning is presented, one must analyse that meaning, not just say "My opinion is this or that". E.g. The English word Awful several centuries ago meant Awesome. The exact opposite. An awful king was a very good king. Full of awe. Lets say someone presents this meaning of the word and explains it, and someone else comes along and just makes a statement like "my opinion is awful means awful as in the 21st century and it always meant that way" and the only analysis he presents is "its my opinion", it is a childish retort so its better to be avoided.

Let me give you an example of useless polemics that people embrace sometimes. This is just a start. There is a gentleman called Mario Joseph in India who supposedly was a MUSLIM IMAM who became a catholic priest and of course his most prominent function is to insult islam. Ill just give one or two things he says about the Quran which is impossible to be so wrong about that it is impossible he could have ever been an Imam. Thus, I am sorry but I must say "its a lie".

  • He says the Quran 6,666 verses. Its not true. I have heard some people repeat this out of sheer ignorance, but an "IMAM" to say this, its kind of unnatural. An Imam cannot be so ignorant.
  • He says that the Quran calls Jesus by the word Kalimathullah. Oh yes. Some Christian apologists have said this. Well, its not true. Yet I must admit that most Christians who say this are doing so out of ignorance. But "AN IMAM"??? You get what I am saying.
Thats just two of his umpteen number of bogus Imam-clad ignorant apologetic remarks.

Now this is the type of polemics people engage in sometimes thinking "This is criticism". Nope. Thats not.

Hope to see some value in this thread. Peace.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi @firedragon -

We've talked before :)

As you might recall, I look at ALL scripture from the perspective of cognitive science. And as I recall, you prefer to assess scripture by understanding the historical context? Something like that?

==

From my perspective, the Quran is an amazing propaganda tool. Apparently, Muhammad had some insights into how the human brain works, and he constructed the Quran as a sort of brain-washing tool. As you know, the book is EXTREMELY repetitive. This is a key aspect of brainwashing.

So, one example of this is that - over 500 times - the Quran criticizes non-Muslims. This establishes a strong "us vs. them" mentality in the reader's brain. From a cognitive science perspective, it doesn't matter what the "mind" thinks in terms of historical analysis. The brain and the mind are not always in agreement. So a scholar's mind can do all sorts of complex analysis and find ways to justify what's in the book. But the reader's "brain" is operating on a different level and is just picking up on the pattern that the book criticizes non-Muslims every which way, over and over again.

Now it is true that you can find websites critical of the Quran that mention this 500+ number. But having read the Quran myself, I can tell you that that number is probably pretty close, even if it's not perfect. And from a brainwashing perspective, it wouldn't matter if the real number was 300 or 400 or 500 or 600 - it would still have a brainwashing impact on the "brain".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
We've talked before :)

Yeah I remember a little. Yet I can't remember about what.

Hi @firedragon -

We've talked before :)

As you might recall, I look at ALL scripture from the perspective of cognitive science. And as I recall, you prefer to assess scripture by understanding the historical context? Something like that?

==

From my perspective, the Quran is an amazing propaganda tool. Apparently, Muhammad had some insights into how the human brain works, and he constructed the Quran as a sort of brain-washing tool. As you know, the book is EXTREMELY repetitive. This is a key aspect of brainwashing.

So, one example of this is that - over 500 times - the Quran criticizes non-Muslims. This establishes a strong "us vs. them" mentality in the reader's brain. From a cognitive science perspective, it doesn't matter what the "mind" thinks in terms of historical analysis. The brain and the mind are not always in agreement. So a scholar's mind can do all sorts of complex analysis and find ways to justify what's in the book. But the reader's "brain" is operating on a different level and is just picking up on the pattern that the book criticizes non-Muslims every which way, over and over again.

Now it is true that you can find websites critical of the Quran that mention this 500+ number. But having read the Quran myself, I can tell you that that number is probably pretty close, even if it's not perfect. And from a brainwashing perspective, it wouldn't matter if the real number was 300 or 400 or 500 or 600 - it would still have a brainwashing impact on the "brain".

Nothing of value in that post to respond. Just some opinion. So I can say thanks.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I like how you frame, what the rest of us must do.
I have no criticism of the Quran. I just don't believe in it. That is all. I don't need to believe in it to have a life. That is a falsification of not just your approach but in general all humans, who try to frame in the end what is the meaning with life, the universe and all the rest for us all.
If you like it is a criticism of how one must approach another belief system. I just don't believe in the Quran and other religious systems than my own. The evidence for that is that I can do it. That is how simple it is.
Now that is because it is subjective. For the objective part I use science and for the social part I am of the Western variant. I believe in cognitive, moral, cultural relativism, Human Rights, humanism, a secular society and am a Scandinavian Social Democrat.

So as long as you don't claim objective authority, then that is it. Now I can critique objective authority, but that is not limited to religion.

Regards
Mikkel
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
From my perspective, the Quran is an amazing propaganda tool. Apparently, Muhammad had some insights into how the human brain works, and he constructed the Quran as a sort of brain-washing tool. As you know, the book is EXTREMELY repetitive. This is a key aspect of brainwashing.
Brainwashing also has a positive sound to me, knowing the "dirty" brains many people have. In that case repetition is a good thing.

So, one example of this is that - over 500 times - the Quran criticizes non-Muslims. This establishes a strong "us vs. them" mentality in the reader's brain. From a cognitive science perspective, it doesn't matter what the "mind" thinks in terms of historical analysis. The brain and the mind are not always in agreement. So a scholar's mind can do all sorts of complex analysis and find ways to justify what's in the book. But the reader's "brain" is operating on a different level and is just picking up on the pattern that the book criticizes non-Muslims every which way, over and over again.
This kind of brainwashing is really the worst (not in my humble opinion; as it does violate RF Rules)

Now it is true that you can find websites critical of the Quran that mention this 500+ number. But having read the Quran myself, I can tell you that that number is probably pretty close, even if it's not perfect. And from a brainwashing perspective, it wouldn't matter if the real number was 300 or 400 or 500 or 600 - it would still have a brainwashing impact on the "brain".
Once is already too much for me to digest, hence it's kind of problematic for me to finish reading the Koran; unless I would redact all these verses.

Nothing of value in that post to respond. Just some opinion. So I can say thanks.
You forgot to mention that this is your opinion, with which I strongly disagree.
In my opinion @icehorse nailed it here; criticizing feelings of others is "not done"
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The word criticism used here is not about making some insults against the Quran or some cut and paste from an Anti Islamic website. Criticism is using criticism techniques.

This thread was to be opened several years ago and sprung up due to another discussion within another topic. Though I cannot really remember the exact discussion due, I presume this is a good enough start.

I look forward to some constructive discussions.

1. What criticism of the Quran have you applied in a structured manner? E.g. Form Criticism!
2. Is every thing you use against the Quran just polemics picked from other peoples apologetics?
3. When a linguistic analysis of a particular narrative is presented are you already prepared to dismiss it?
4. Textual criticism came into play. Thus what are your text critical analyses that needs a response to?

I would like to recommend an approach to something like a word analysis. If a meaning is presented, one must analyse that meaning, not just say "My opinion is this or that". E.g. The English word Awful several centuries ago meant Awesome. The exact opposite. An awful king was a very good king. Full of awe. Lets say someone presents this meaning of the word and explains it, and someone else comes along and just makes a statement like "my opinion is awful means awful as in the 21st century and it always meant that way" and the only analysis he presents is "its my opinion", it is a childish retort so its better to be avoided.

Let me give you an example of useless polemics that people embrace sometimes. This is just a start. There is a gentleman called Mario Joseph in India who supposedly was a MUSLIM IMAM who became a catholic priest and of course his most prominent function is to insult islam. Ill just give one or two things he says about the Quran which is impossible to be so wrong about that it is impossible he could have ever been an Imam. Thus, I am sorry but I must say "its a lie".

  • He says the Quran 6,666 verses. Its not true. I have heard some people repeat this out of sheer ignorance, but an "IMAM" to say this, its kind of unnatural. An Imam cannot be so ignorant.
  • He says that the Quran calls Jesus by the word Kalimathullah. Oh yes. Some Christian apologists have said this. Well, its not true. Yet I must admit that most Christians who say this are doing so out of ignorance. But "AN IMAM"??? You get what I am saying.
Thats just two of his umpteen number of bogus Imam-clad ignorant apologetic remarks.

Now this is the type of polemics people engage in sometimes thinking "This is criticism". Nope. Thats not.

Hope to see some value in this thread. Peace.
Awesome! Hopefully this thread will be quite productive.

So the first thing I want to question is the basis of moving forward in this discussion:

Can someone come to a good understanding of the Quran by reading an English translation of it? Because whenever I come to a conclusion from reading the English translation of the Quran that muslims I interact with do not like, they say that I am not reading the Quran in Arabic therefore my point is invalid. If I cannot understand the Quran through the english translation then I cannot contribute to this thread.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Awesome! Hopefully this thread will be quite productive.

So the first thing I want to question is the basis of moving forward in this discussion:

Can someone come to a good understanding of the Quran by reading an English translation of it? Because whenever I come to a conclusion from reading the English translation of the Quran that muslims I interact with do not like, they say that I am not reading the Quran in Arabic therefore my point is invalid. If I cannot understand the Quran through the english translation then I cannot contribute to this thread.
I speak only from my own understanding of your question and from what my teacher told me when I asked the same questions:)

If you just want to recite the Quran, yes you do have to learn arabic. To say the recitation correctly and to understand what you say.

If you want to "walk the Qur'an" meaning live it and breath it ( taking the Qur'an in to your heart). You would benefit from being with someone who already has become a walking Qur'an so you can ask questions, so you your self gain the deep wisdom of the teachings. In this you do not need to know arabic (in the beginning) since those you speak with, will guide you and explain the Arabic meaning to you in for example english.

Muhammad was the first walking Qur'an on earth.

My answer here is of course based on sufi teaching and comes from those i communicate within sufism :)
 
Last edited:

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I speak only from my own understanding of your question and from what my teacher told me when I asked the same questions:)

If you just want to recite the Quran, yes you do have to learn arabic. To say the recitation correctly and to understand what you say.

If you want to "walk the Qur'an" meaning live it and breath it ( taking the Qur'anin to your heart). You would benefit from being with someone who already has become a walking Qur'an so you can ask questions, so you your self gain the deep wisdom of the teachings. In this you do not need to know arabic (in the beginning) since those you speak with, will guide you and explain the Arabic meaning to you in for example english.

Muhammad was the first walking Qur'an on earth.

My answer here is of course based on sufi teaching and comes from those i communicate within sufism :)

From a ritualistic and religious standpoint I understand the necessity of learning arabic. For a critique on what the Quran teaches on the other hand, I need to know if using an english translation is valid according to muslims (I do see english translations as being valid as one doesnt need to understand the nuance of words in original languages to understand a what it says when translated. What is said doesn't fundamentally change. Also English translations would be done by muslims themselves, people who understand arabic, so I would trust their accuracy).
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
From a ritualistic and religious standpoint I understand the necessity of learning arabic. For a critique on what the Quran teaches on the other hand, I need to know if using an english translation is valid according to muslims (I do see english translations as being valid as one doesnt need to understand the nuance of words in original languages to understand a what it says when translated. What is said doesn't fundamentally change. Also English translations would be done by muslims themselves, people who understand arabic, so I would trust their accuracy).
I would say, on a basic level you can discuss the teaching of the Qur'an by reading the translated version yes. But if a person truly want to understand the meaning that is hidden within the Qur'an, after some time they must also be able to read arabic. Arabic words and english words does not always grasp the truth at the same level.

But you can get far with only english translation.

There are many muslims who daily recite the words of the Qur'an, but have no understand of what they say because they do not know Arabic but use the Arabic version of the Qur'an to recite. That is not a good way of getting close to Allah:)

Personally at this time i do use english translation of the Qur'an. But i have now people around me who do speak Arabic and understand it very well.
But yes at one point i would benefit more from knowing Arabic too.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I would say, on a basic level you can discuss the teaching of the Qur'an by reading the translated version yes. But if a person truly want to understand the meaning that is hidden within the Qur'an, after some time they must also be able to read arabic. Arabic words and english words does not always grasp the truth at the same level.
Can you provide an example of this?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I will need some time to do that ( as i said my Arabic is not good enough to discuss on a deeper level right now. I will ask my teacher for help on this :)

But i am sure some of RF more skilled Arabic speakers can help :)

You know, the Greek texts and Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Bible have a similar issue when it comes to words, but there are quite a few concordances of that. So one doesn't need to know Greek or Hebrew to get the deeper meaning of words, the reader just has to check the original word in the concordance, see its various meanings and then get a nuanced understanding of it. It is quite affective. Does the Quran have a concordance?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
You know, the Greek texts and Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Bible have a similar issue when it comes to words, but there are quite a few concordances of that. So one doesn't need to know Greek or Hebrew to get the deeper meaning of words, the reader just has to check the original word in the concordance, see its various meanings and then get a nuanced understanding of it. It is quite affective. Does the Quran have a concordance?
I can only speak for the part of Islam i belong to in sufi order. But as far as i have come to understand, there is commentaries about meanings in the quran or other texts we study. But i have not yet gotten hold of such teaching of Concordance to help me. maybe i should find it :)
 
Top