Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

[stevecanuck]

Happy Birthday, since it's your Birthday, here you go:

The contradiction in your argument is glaring, as you trip yourself up with your own quotes. Verse 16:89 says, "We have sent down to you the Book [Qur'an] as clarification for all things".

It is not only absurd, but blasphemous of you, to suggest that Allah thinks He has clarified all things in the Qur'an, only to have Mohamed feel the need to step up and further explain said "clarifications". Do you really not see the spectacular illogic in that?????

 

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The contradiction in your argument is glaring, as you trip yourself up with your own quotes. Verse 16:89 says, "We have sent down to you the Book [Qur'an] as clarification for all things".

It is not only absurd, but blasphemous of you, to suggest that Allah thinks He has clarified all things in the Qur'an, only to have Mohamed feel the need to step up and further explain said "clarifications". Do you really not see the spectacular illogic in that?????

It has a clarification of all things, but it can't perceived without the Sunnah. The Quran and Sunnah go together.

 

[stevecanuck]

Is this the case? People is not the primary meaning of the word. Family is. It can only mean people when it's obviously not family.

It's the same word used here:

وَاجْعَلْ لِي وَزِيرًا مِنْ أَهْلِي | Appoint for me a minister from my family, | Taa-Haa : 29

Quran surah Taha 29 (QS 20: 29) in arabic and english translation - Alquran english

Why did all translators translate it as family here and not people. Because "people" with this word, is a secondary meaning. The primary meaning is family. And since it was not impossible, for it to mean family, none of them translated it as people.

I apply the same principle to the "family of the reminder", while most translators, don't perceive the possibility of this as an expression.

"All translators"? Show me even one here who translated it as "family". Just one. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

 

[Link]

"All translators"? Show me even one here who translated it as "family". Just one. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

They translate the word as family other places, they just don't with the "reminder" because they don't perceive the possibility of the expression. I was talking about why 20:29 was translated like that and not as people.

 

[KWED]

That’s because they ARE ill-informed and irrational. So, tell me which point(s) of yours that are NOT irrational and ill-informed to be worth responding to??

There you go again, just repeating the same baseless assertion.
If they really are so ill-informed and irrational, you would be able to refute them easily.
However, you have now spent more time and words avoiding doing that than would have take to do it in the first place. It is clear that you are not only unable to do it, but you realise that you can't.

Is it almost embarrassing to do so or is it if you did, it would further expose your inability to think rationally and logically??

You claimed that disbelief in god was a sign of an inability to think logically or rationally.
I showed that some of the greatest scientific minds of our time do not believe in god.
Therefore you claim was disproved (not that it needed it anyway, as it was so infantile as to barely be worth a response).

Let’s find out - tell me what evidence(s) do you have for the non-existence of God??

Which particular version of god are you referring to?
As you are a Muslim, I assume you are referring to the god of Islam, as described in the Quran.

Firstly, what evidence do you have for the non-existence of all the others gods?

Islam claims that the Quran is the actual, verbatim, infallible record of the word of god himself, not some man's inspired writings.
The Quran calms that if it contains any error or contradiction then it cannot be from god.
Therefore if the Quran contains any error or contradiction is is not from god.
If it is not from god, then the god it describes does not exist.
There are many errors and contradictions in the Quran, but one is all that is required to disprove the god of Islam.
41:12 describes the earth being created before the stars were hung in the sky. This is categorically wrong as many of the stars visible from earth existed before the earth did.

 

[stevecanuck]

Is this the case? People is not the primary meaning of the word. Family is. It can only mean people when it's obviously not family.

It's the same word used here:

وَاجْعَلْ لِي وَزِيرًا مِنْ أَهْلِي | Appoint for me a minister from my family, | Taa-Haa : 29

Quran surah Taha 29 (QS 20: 29) in arabic and english translation - Alquran english

You're only becoming more dishonest. This example uses the 1st person singular possessive pronoun, and literally means "my people", not just "people". Of course "my people" could mean family in the right instance. In this case it's Moses talking about Aaron.

Why did all translators translate it as family here and not people. Because "people" with this word, is a secondary meaning. The primary meaning is family. And since it was not impossible, for it to mean family, none of them translated it as people.

"All" again? That is simply not so. Why do you think you can get away with this deception?

Sahih International: And appoint for me a minister from my family -

Pickthall: Appoint for me a henchman from my folk,

Yusuf Ali: "And give me a Minister from my family,

Shakir: And give to me an aider from my family:

Muhammad Sarwar: Appoint a deputy (for me) from my own people.

Mohsin Khan: "And appoint for me a helper from my family,

Arberry: Appoint for me of my folk a familiar,

That could mean family, but even though Moses is talking about Aaron, some translators still refer to "people" or "folk".

 

[Link]

You're only becoming more dishonest. This example uses the 1st person singular possessive pronoun, and literally means "my people", not just "people". Of course "my people" could mean family in the right instance. In this case it's Moses talking about Aaron.



"All" again? That is simply not so. Why do you think you can get away with this deception?

Sahih International: And appoint for me a minister from my family -

Pickthall: Appoint for me a henchman from my folk,

Yusuf Ali: "And give me a Minister from my family,

Shakir: And give to me an aider from my family:

Muhammad Sarwar: Appoint a deputy (for me) from my own people.

Mohsin Khan: "And appoint for me a helper from my family,

Arberry: Appoint for me of my folk a familiar,

That could mean family, but even though Moses is talking about Aaron, some translators still refer to "people" or "folk".

Some translators might be obsessed with opposing Ahlulbayt (a) in Quran. You don't know Arabic but are calling me dishonest. The primary meaning of "ahl" is family. People is the parable meaning, not the other way. It takes on "followers" "people" only when family can't be the meaning.

 

[stevecanuck]

It has a clarification of all things, but it can't perceived without the Sunnah. The Quran and Sunnah go together.

According to you, not the Qur'an. Again, your position is a direct contradiction to Allah's claim that he has "made the Qur'an easy".

 

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According to you, not the Qur'an. Again, your position is a direct contradiction to Allah's claim that he has "made the Qur'an easy".

The Quran is made easy but if you don't so Salah, you won't be guided by it. If you don't do prayers to God often, per itself, you won't be guided by it. And certainly, if you don't come to the family of the reminder thirsty, you won't be guided by it.

Per it's own words, it only increases the oppressors/unjust in loss. It doesn't benefit them.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Quran is made easy but if you don't so Salah, you won't be guided by it. If you don't do prayers to God often, per itself, you won't be guided by it. And certainly, if you don't come to the family of the reminder thirsty, you won't be guided by it.

Per it's own words, it only increases the oppressors/unjust in loss. It doesn't benefit them.

I hope you realize that you've just admitted that one doesn't need hadiths, etc to understand Islam. One only needs the Qur'an, faith, and dedication to be a properly guided Muslim. I believe we are done since we've come to an agreement.

 

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I hope you realize that you've just admitted that one doesn't need hadiths, etc to understand Islam. One only needs the Qur'an, faith, and dedication to be a properly guided Muslim. I believe we are done since we've come to an agreement.

I disagree. But you can approach life however you like, there is no force in religion. If you want to say Quran says Quran should be studied without hadiths and explanation of the Messengers, you perish by your own creation with no basis in either Quran or reasoning.

Salah can't even be known in details without the Sunnah. None of us would see it all in Quran, although the interior reasoning of the Sunnah details is in Quran, none of us or maybe a few without being able to prove it to others, would've seen it.

 

[stevecanuck]

I disagree. But you can approach life however you like, there is no force in religion. If you want to say Quran says Quran should be studied without hadiths and explanation of the Messengers, you perish by your own creation with no basis in either Quran or reasoning.

Salah can't even be known in details without the Sunnah. None of us would see it all in Quran, although the interior reasoning of the Sunnah details is in Quran, none of us or maybe a few without being able to prove it to others, would've seen it.

2:118 - We have made clear the signs unto people who are sure.
2:266 - Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His) Signs.
3:138 - This (the Quran) is a plain statement for mankind.
6:65 - See how We display the revelations so that they may understand.
6:157 - So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Quran) from your Lord.
7:58 - Thus do We explain variously the Ayat.
10:5 - (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail.
10:24 - Thus do We explain the Ayat in detail for the people who reflect.
13:2 - He regulates all affairs, explaining the Ayat in detail, that you may believe with certainty.
17:12 - All things have We explained in detail.
19:97 - We have given you the Book (the Quran) in your own language so that you could easily give the glad news to the pious ones and warn the quarrelsome ones.
27:93 - Praise be to Allah, Who will soon show you His Signs, so that ye shall know them.
44:58 - So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.
54:17 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:22 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:32 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:40 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
57:17 - We have made clear Our revelations for you.

There are also many dozens of other verses such as 12:16 - "Surely in that are signs for a people who understand" - that claim Allah's works are so obviously of divine and miraculous origin that they, in and off themselves, are so clear as to obviate the need for further explanation.

Just look at all the verses above that say in no uncertain terms that Allah "Explains in detail". In no verses that speak of Allah's signs is it even remotely suggested that more explanation is necessary. That means nothing more needs to be said. Your position is utterly untenable. You. Are. Wrong. Period.

 

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Quran is clear but due to the Sunnah clarifying it, and Sunnah is clear only through Quran and being seen proven in it. Together, they are one.

 

[stevecanuck]

Quran is clear but due to the Sunnah clarifying it, and Sunnah is clear only through Quran and being seen proven in it. Together, they are one.

And that's the part you made up.

I gave you indisputable verses that say "Allah's signs" are clear, yet you blindly stick to your fantasy. You are denying the words of your god. I guess we'll eventually meet in Hell.

 

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And that's the part you made up.

I gave you indisputable verses that say "Allah's signs" are clear, yet you blindly stick to your fantasy. You are denying the words of your god. I guess we'll eventually meet in Hell.

God and his Messengers are linked. The family of the reminder cannot be separated from the reminder. They go together.

 

[JerryMyers]

There you go again, just repeating the same baseless assertion.
If they really are so ill-informed and irrational, you would be able to refute them easily.
However, you have now spent more time and words avoiding doing that than would have take to do it in the first place. It is clear that you are not only unable to do it, but you realise that you can't.
You claimed that disbelief in god was a sign of an inability to think logically or rationally.
I showed that some of the greatest scientific minds of our time do not believe in god.
Therefore you claim was disproved (not that it needed it anyway, as it was so infantile as to barely be worth a response).

There you go again, just repeating the same baseless assertion.

Well, anyone who can think logically and rationally (and we know you can’t) will know that ‘some of the greatest scientific minds of our time do not believe in god’ don’t make it true just as some Americans believe Trump won the last Presidential Election don’t make it true either. Therefore, your claim was disproved (not that it needed it anyway, as it was so infantile as to barely be worth a response).

Which particular version of god are you referring to?
As you are a Muslim, I assume you are referring to the god of Islam, as described in the Quran.
Firstly, what evidence do you have for the non-existence of all the others gods?
Islam claims that the Quran is the actual, verbatim, infallible record of the word of god himself, not some man's inspired writings.
The Quran calms that if it contains any error or contradiction then it cannot be from god.
Therefore if the Quran contains any error or contradiction is is not from god.
If it is not from god, then the god it describes does not exist.
There are many errors and contradictions in the Quran, but one is all that is required to disprove the god of Islam.
41:12 describes the earth being created before the stars were hung in the sky. This is categorically wrong as many of the stars visible from earth existed before the earth did.

Actually, my question is very straightforward and simple that even 6 years old kids can understand… and why would I need to say which version of God? After all, it’s not about which version of God as atheists just don’t believe in the existence of (any) God. Period.

So, again - tell me what evidence(s) do you have for the non-existence of God?

Try NOT to spend more time and words avoiding this very straightforward question. It is clear that not only you are unable to answer it, but you realize that you can't.

 

[stevecanuck]

Quran is clear but due to the Sunnah clarifying it, and Sunnah is clear only through Quran and being seen proven in it. Together, they are one.

Please give me just one example from another topic in which a "Clear proof" needs further explanation.

 

[stevecanuck]

tell me what evidence(s) do you have for the non-existence of God?

tell me what evidence(s) do you have for the non-existence of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Asking someone to prove a negative is a tactic of a disingenuous debater. That would be you. Your unending stream of ad-hom attacks is another.

I suspect you became a Muslim to **** your old man off.

 

[Link]

Please give me just one example from another topic in which a "Clear proof" needs further explanation.

Documents in law need interpretation clarification from lawyers. Text books go hand to hand with professors often. They help reinforce one another.

 

[stevecanuck]

Documents in law need interpretation clarification from lawyers. Text books go hand to hand with professors often. They help reinforce one another.

I sure you could be more vague if you really tried.