Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

[stevecanuck]

First, there are well known and much respected translators who put phrases like, "Let there be" (Yusuf Ali), and, "There shall be", (Sahih International) in front of, "no compulsion in religion". But, IMO, they are editorializing. If you look at the word-for-word translation, you'll see it simply says, "No compulsion in religion". Even the, "There is", is an understood concession required when converting Arabic sentence structure into English syntax.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

Muhammad Sarwar and many others translate it minus unnecessary additions: There is no compulsion in religion. Certainly, right has become clearly distinct from wrong. Whoever rejects the devil and believes in God has firmly taken hold of a strong handle that never breaks. God is All-hearing and knowing.

This is probably the Islamopropagandists favorite sentence in the Qur'an. Accusations of 'cherry picking' and 'taking a verse out of context' be damned. They only trot those dodges out when they're trying to discredit critics of Islam.

They like to simply drop this sentence (not even the whole verse) into a conversation and let the sophistry come to life on its own. If read casually, it appears to be telling Muslims not to force others to adopt Islam, and of course that's exactly how apologists want it to be understood. In fact, all it is saying is that Allah's word is so obviously true, that a person will come to Islam on his own. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not to force others into Islam.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

In fact, all it is saying is that Allah's word is so obviously true, that a person will come to Islam on his own. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not to force others into Islam.

I like that interpretation.
Let's be patient and see what happens.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In Arabic, there are different forms and grammatical functions of the word la (which most commonly means "no" but also expresses general negation or absence), with which that verse starts. One of them--the form used in this verse--is la al nafiya lel gens ("an attribute-negating la"), that is, a la expressing a comprehensive and general negation or absence of a quality or attribute (in this case, compulsion) from a noun or another attribute (in this case, religion).

The grammatical structure of the sentence indeed makes it clear the negation of compulsion applies to religion--it has been widely interpreted by Islamic scholars as referring to forced conversion. However, some fundamentalist schools of thought argue that the verse was later abrogated or that it only applies to People of the Book, which leaves room for forced conversion of pagans, atheists, etc. This is only one interpretation, though, and from a strictly linguistic/grammatical standpoint, the verse speaks against compulsion in religion.

 

[stevecanuck]

In Arabic, there are different forms and grammatical functions of the word la (which most commonly means "no" but also expresses general negation or absence), with which that verse starts. One of them--the form used in this verse--is la al nafiya lel gens ("an attribute-negating la"), that is, a la expressing a comprehensive and general negation or absence of a quality or attribute (in this case, compulsion) from a noun or another attribute (in this case, religion).

Correct. I believe I said the same thing in lot fewer words. The generality of the negation in this verse leads to me accept that, "There is no", is more appropriate here than, "Let there be no".

The grammatical structure of the sentence indeed makes it clear the negation of compulsion applies to religion--it has been widely interpreted by Islamic scholars as referring to forced conversion. However, some fundamentalist schools of thought argue that the verse was later abrogated or that it only applies to People of the Book, which leaves room for forced conversion of pagans, atheists, etc. This is only one interpretation, though, and from a strictly linguistic/grammatical standpoint, the verse speaks against compulsion in religion.

Just the fact that so many people can read whatever they want to into it proves that Allah didn't do a very good job of getting his message across.

 

[syo]

There is no compulsion in religion. Certainly, right has become clearly distinct from wrong. Whoever rejects the devil and believes in God has firmly taken hold of a strong handle that never breaks. God is All-hearing and knowing.

Amazing.

 

[stevecanuck]

Amazing.

Okaaayyyyyy? What exactly is amazing?

 

[syo]

Okaaayyyyyy? What exactly is amazing?

It perfectly explains the man-religion relationship.

 

[Valjean]

Reminds me of the preface in the US constitution's 2nd ammendment: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state...."

Good point, Stevecanuck. Context can change the whole interpretation of things.

 

[stevecanuck]

Okaaayyyyyy? What exactly is amazing?

Not at all. If there were a part two of my post, it would have been to point out that the Qur'an is based on compulsion. Literally many hundreds of verses say, "Believe in me and obey me, or I will torture you in Hell for eternity". Now, that is what I call compulsion.

 

[syo]

Not at all. If there were a part two of my post, it would have been to point out that the Qur'an is based on compulsion. Literally many hundreds of verses say, "Believe in me and obey me, or I will torture you in Hell for eternity". Now, that is what I call compulsion.

I see. I guess I'm mistaken. Too hasty.

 

[stanberger]

Correct. I believe I said the same thing in lot fewer words. The generality of the negation in this verse leads to me accept that, "There is no", is more appropriate here than, "Let there be no".



Just the fact that so many people can read whatever they want to into it proves that Allah didn't do a very good job of getting his message across.

the disbeliever will always find an excuse. revert to islam in 2002 from church

 

[stanberger]

Not at all. If there were a part two of my post, it would have been to point out that the Qur'an is based on compulsion. Literally many hundreds of verses say, "Believe in me and obey me, or I will torture you in Hell for eternity". Now, that is what I call compulsion.

not really. god warns to not be a disbeliever. its good he warns us of the consequences beforehand

 

[stevecanuck]

not really. god warns to not be a disbeliever. its good he warns us of the consequences beforehand

Are you smart enough to realize you've just agreed with me?

 

[stanberger]

Are you smart enough to realize you've just agreed with me?

Are you smart enough to realize you've just agreed with me?

miracles happen once in awhile

 

[KWED]

First, there are well known and much respected translators who put phrases like, "Let there be" (Yusuf Ali), and, "There shall be", (Sahih International) in front of, "no compulsion in religion". But, IMO, they are editorializing. If you look at the word-for-word translation, you'll see it simply says, "No compulsion in religion". Even the, "There is", is an understood concession required when converting Arabic sentence structure into English syntax.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

Muhammad Sarwar and many others translate it minus unnecessary additions: There is no compulsion in religion. Certainly, right has become clearly distinct from wrong. Whoever rejects the devil and believes in God has firmly taken hold of a strong handle that never breaks. God is All-hearing and knowing.

This is probably the Islamopropagandists favorite sentence in the Qur'an. Accusations of 'cherry picking' and 'taking a verse out of context' be damned. They only trot those dodges out when they're trying to discredit critics of Islam.

They like to simply drop this sentence (not even the whole verse) into a conversation and let the sophistry come to life on its own. If read casually, it appears to be telling Muslims not to force others to adopt Islam, and of course that's exactly how apologists want it to be understood. In fact, all it is saying is that Allah's word is so obviously true, that a person will come to Islam on his own. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not to force others into Islam.

On the "cherry-picking" and "context" accusations so frequently levelled at critics, it is interesting that when citing the "no compulsion" quote mine, apologists never give the context of all the other passages that clearly describe, condone or instruct force or coercion in "encouraging" people to submit to Islam.
It's almost as if it's one rule for some, and another rule for others.

 

[KWED]

not really. god warns to not be a disbeliever. its good he warns us of the consequences beforehand

So you agree that Allah uses threats of violence to persuade people to submit to Islam against their will. So there is "compulsion in religion".
Glad we sorted that out without pages of nonsense.

 

[stanberger]

On the "cherry-picking" and "context" accusations so frequently levelled at critics, it is interesting that when citing the "no compulsion" quote mine, apologists never give the context of all the other passages that clearly describe, condone or instruct force or coercion in "encouraging" people to submit to Islam.
It's almost as if it's one rule for some, and another rule for others.

On the "cherry-picking" and "context" accusations so frequently levelled at critics, it is interesting that when citing the "no compulsion" quote mine, apologists never give the context of all the other passages that clearly describe, condone or instruct force or coercion in "encouraging" people to submit to Islam.
It's almost as if it's one rule for some, and another rule for others.

sorry but if the shoe fits

 

[KWED]

sorry but if the shoe fits

So you agree that many apologists who cry "But Context!" or "Cherry Picking!" are hypocrites.

 

[icehorse]

In Arabic, there are different forms and grammatical functions of the word la (which most commonly means "no" but also expresses general negation or absence), with which that verse starts. One of them--the form used in this verse--is la al nafiya lel gens ("an attribute-negating la"), that is, a la expressing a comprehensive and general negation or absence of a quality or attribute (in this case, compulsion) from a noun or another attribute (in this case, religion).

The grammatical structure of the sentence indeed makes it clear the negation of compulsion applies to religion--it has been widely interpreted by Islamic scholars as referring to forced conversion. However, some fundamentalist schools of thought argue that the verse was later abrogated or that it only applies to People of the Book, which leaves room for forced conversion of pagans, atheists, etc. This is only one interpretation, though, and from a strictly linguistic/grammatical standpoint, the verse speaks against compulsion in religion.

It's handy for us critics that Muslims claim the book is perfect and timeless. That makes the book easier to criticize.

So even if we take "no compulsion" at face value. We have to weigh that against the countless times that the book describes the literal hell fire that awaits non-believers. Seems coercive to me. And then we're told that non-believers can't fool Allah. We can pretend to be Muslims, but Allah will know if we're lying. (And BTW, you have to read only the first two Surahs to learn this.) So we're told over and over that Allah is merciful, but we're also told that he created non-believers to be irredeemably flawed and doomed. All nicely spelled out in the first handful of pages.

Good thing there is no compulsion!

 

[stevecanuck]

It's handy for us critics that Muslims claim the book is perfect and timeless. That makes the book easier to criticize.

So even if we take "no compulsion" at face value. We have to weigh that against the countless times that the book describes the literal hell fire that awaits non-believers. Seems coercive to me. And then we're told that non-believers can't fool Allah. We can pretend to be Muslims, but Allah will know if we're lying. (And BTW, you have to read only the first two Surahs to learn this.) So we're told over and over that Allah is merciful, but we're also told that he created non-believers to be irredeemably flawed and doomed. All nicely spelled out in the first handful of pages.

Good thing there is no compulsion!

The flaws and contradictions in the Qur'an are the bleedin' obvious to anyone who reads it objectively. Muslim don't.