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Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just something to note with regards to opening post. There are hadiths that show that the verse was revealed when a Muslim who converted from Christianity his kids didn't want to change to Islam. He asked Mohammad (s) what he should do with his kids, and this verse was revealed.

When it comes to laws, there needs to be often lawyers who clarify what is meant by a phrase. The Sunnah and context of when it was revealed, show it to be about freedom of religion should not be forced outwardly, and not about just free-will (inwardly) in religion.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Just something to note with regards to opening post. There are hadiths that show that the verse was revealed when a Muslim who converted from Christianity his kids didn't want to change to Islam. He asked Mohammad (s) what he should do with his kids, and this verse was revealed.

Apparently we don't need to know that because it's not explained in the Qur'an. (btw, if you don't quote or reference me, there's no guarantee I'll see your posts).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Apparently we don't need to know that because it's not explained in the Qur'an. (btw, if you don't quote or reference me, there's no guarantee I'll see your posts).

This is your paradigm, which is wrong per Quran.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
If my arguments really were ill-informed and irrational, you would be able to easily point this out and rebut them. But you can't. And everyone can see that. And presumably you are also aware of it. It must be awful for you.
I genuinely can't fathom what you are hoping to achieve here. You must have realised by now that your incessant trolling won't discourage me, so your approach merely serves to highlight your inability to defend your position.
Why are you repeating your nonsense?? You already said that in your post #116 and I have responded to that in my post #118!

Are your ignorance and inability to think logically and rationally confusing you??? Hardly surprising!!
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Why are you repeating your nonsense?? You already said that in your post #116 and I have responded to that in my post #118!
No you didn't. You simply said that you weren't going to address any of my points because they were ill-informed and irrational.

If you look back over your posts, most of them are simply insults, ad homs and deflection. The occasional point you do make (like disbelieving in god shows an inability to think rationally and logically) are so easily refuted that it is almost embarrassing to do so.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
You don't see anything in Quran so what you see or don't see doesn't count. Your blind per Quran itself. Keep that in mind.

Cop out by mixing the literal with the figurative. If there were such a verse you would provide it.

Of course Mohamed told Muslims to obey him (via the verses he invented while pretending to receive messages from god). That's the whole point of creating the religion in the first place.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Cop out by mixing the literal with the figurative. If there were such a verse you would provide it.

Of course Mohamed told Muslims (via the verses he invented while pretending to receive messages from god) to obey him. That's the whole point of creating the religion in the first place.

I've already provided such a verse. And explained it as well. Like I said your blindness is not a measurement of what is or isn't in Quran.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I've already provided such a verse. And explained it as well. Like I said your blindness is not a measurement of what is or isn't in Quran.

You have not quoted any verse in this thread. Your first post is on this page. Are you talking about a different thread?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sigh. It really doesn't have to be this hard. Can you please direct me there?

Happy Birthday, since it's your Birthday, here you go:

Salam

There are two instances of this, the context of each slightly changes their meaning.

The first is in Surah Nahl. Some verses to give context in the Surah:

وَعَلَى اللَّهِ قَصْدُ السَّبِيلِ وَمِنْهَا جَائِرٌ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَهَدَاكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ | With Allah rests guidance of the path, and from it are deviations and had He wished He would have guided you all. | An-Nahl : 9

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ مِنْ كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا ثُمَّ لَا يُؤْذَنُ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَلَا هُمْ يُسْتَعْتَبُونَ | The day We shall raise a witness from every nation, the faithless will not be permitted [to speak], nor will they be asked to propitiate [Allah]. | An-Nahl : 84

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَىٰ هَٰؤُلَاءِ ۚ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ تِبْيَانًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَىٰ لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ | The day We raise in every nation a witness against them from among themselves, We shall bring you as a witness against these. We have sent down the Book to you as a clarification of all things and as guidance, mercy and good news for the Muslims. | An-Nahl : 89

وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَسُولًا أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُوا الطَّاغُوتَ ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ هَدَى اللَّهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلَالَةُ ۚ فَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ | Certainly We raised an apostle in every nation [to preach:] ‘Worship Allah, and shun fake deities.’ Among them were some whom Allah guided, and among them were some who deserved to be in error. So travel over the land and observe how was the fate of the deniers. | An-Nahl : 36


Now the mini-context:

الَّذِينَ صَبَرُوا وَعَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ يَتَوَكَّلُونَ | —those who are patient and who rely on their Lord. | An-Nahl : 42

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | And We did not send before you except as men to whom We revealed to therefore ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | An-Nahl : 43

بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ ۗ وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ | [We sent them] with manifest proofs and scriptures. We have sent down the reminder to you so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect. | An-Nahl : 44

Mohammad's (s) role to clarify Quran is talked about here in flow, and his family succeed him and take this role. The verse before talks about relying on God and so the "and..." connects asking the family of reminder to the fact it's relying on God.



The other place is in Surah Anbiya. In this Surah, the context is not simply to ask clarification of Quran, but to ask them for miracles. That's seen here:

بَلْ قَالُوا أَضْغَاثُ أَحْلَامٍ بَلِ افْتَرَاهُ بَلْ هُوَ شَاعِرٌ فَلْيَأْتِنَا بِآيَةٍ كَمَا أُرْسِلَ الْأَوَّلُونَ | But they said, ‘[They are] muddled dreams!’ ‘Indeed, he has fabricated it!’ ‘Indeed, he is a poet!’ ‘Let him bring us a sign, like those sent to the former generations.’ | Al-Anbiyaa : 5

مَا آمَنَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا ۖ أَفَهُمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ | No town that We destroyed before them believed. Will these then have faith [if they are sent signs]? | Al-Anbiyaa : 6

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | And We did not send before you except as men to whom We revealed to therefore ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7


The context is slightly different, in that, in Surah Anbiya, it's talking about signs in form of miracles like previous Messengers were sent with. It warns they most likely won't believe just as past nations who were destroyed did not, but then goes on to say, in the past it was all men who God revealed to as well, therefore go ahead and ask the family of the reminder. The context here is miracles, while in Surah Nahl, the context is about guidance and clarifying what is revealed.

Surah Anbiya emphasizes on the reminder a lot, the new reminder, to be Quran.

Aside from that, we see it also emphasizes on a family of the reminder of the past:

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُ إِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ نَافِلَةً ۖ وَكُلًّا جَعَلْنَا صَالِحِينَ | And We gave him Isaac, and Jacob as well for a grandson, and each of them We made righteous. | Al-Anbiyaa : 72

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ الْخَيْرَاتِ وَإِقَامَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءَ الزَّكَاةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا لَنَا عَابِدِينَ | We made them Imams, guiding by Our command, and We revealed to them [concerning] the performance of good deeds, the maintenance of prayers, and the giving of zakat, and they used to worship Us. | Al-Anbiyaa : 73

And the reminder is both Quran and Mohammad (s). To show this, we read else where:

أَعَدَّ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۖ فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ قَدْ أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْرًا | Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. So be wary of Allah, O you who possess intellect and have faith! Allah has already sent down to you a reminder, | At-Talaaq : 10

رَسُولًا يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ لِيُخْرِجَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۚ وَمَنْ يُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ وَيَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۖ قَدْ أَحْسَنَ اللَّهُ لَهُ رِزْقًا | an apostle reciting to you the manifest signs of Allah that He may bring out those who have faith and do righteous deeds from darkness into light. And whoever has faith in Allah and does righteous deeds, He shall admit him into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them forever. Allah has certainly granted him an excellent provision. | At-Talaaq : 11


His family is also the same reminder and are the living Quran as well whence the fullest appreciation of it's glory and beauty is found, and hence "the family of the reminder".

Where do you get that the message and clarification is the Quran?

Nubuwa is about reception, Quran is a reception from God, it's not Mohammad's (s) message. God's words are channeled through Mohammad's (s) and is a clear message, but they aren't Mohammad's (s) message nor his role as a Messenger. Mohammad's (s) role as a Messenger is to clarify Quran through his own words.

Messenger and message is a different role then Nubuwa (receiving and channeling scripture), it's about his own words in clarifying the revelation.

Nubuwa also has two components, there is receiving physical words, but then there is also how they take form in the 7 heavens and how they descend and ascend back to God. This reception that he understands revelation as it meant to be also shows, that his role as a receiver (Nubuwa) is not enough, but he need to clarify and be a Messenger.

Some proofs of this:

5:67 Mohammad (s) is told to convey what is revealed to him, while saying "convey Quran, if you don't convey Quran, you have not conveyed Quran" would be a meaningless thing to say. You know, if you didn't jump, you didn't jump. That's too obvious. So the real meaning, is that, he has to clarify something essential that has been revealed, or the message would not have been conveyed. This can't be in Quran, so Mohammad (s) and his message is not the Quran.

Musa (a) and Haroun (a) were both "Messengers" before they received the Torah or their respective revelation.... this shows their role of Messengers were not scripture.

There's a lot of evidence to show the role of clarification and message is the role of the Sunnah. Another clear distinction of the two is seen in role of Mohammad (s) as a ruler and judge, and this shown in 4:59-60. Referring to God's Messenger is different then referring to God. Coming to what is revealed from God (Quran) and the Messenger (Mohammad (s)) is necessary, and his judgment to be referred to, is not simply assessing Quran. People can assess Quran guided or misguided, it was necessary to refer the disputes to Mohammad (s) and submit to his judgment. Not simply God's book.

And this is the balance. Interpretation of Quran is important. While hadiths can be made up, so we need to rely on Quran, Quranic interpretations can be conjecture and off-point, and so need hadiths to support. Both are needed.

The Quran is clarified by Mohammad (s) so we need to rely on hadiths. And his family preserve the interpretation of Mohammad (s) and even expand on it. The other thing is because Mohammad's (s) words are calculated keeping in mind Quran, and Quran is a clarification of all things, we are to refer to Quran to see if a hadith is true.

Together this is the way to insights and clear guidance. The sent ones from God are to be given a voice for the revelation of God.

Mohammad (s) is emphasized to be seal of Anbiya, but in the same verse, it says he is a Messenger and didn't say he was the last Messenger. This indicates it's two different roles.

Also, punishment does not come in this world to a people without a Messenger. Yet Quran warns of destruction of all cities if they disbelieve and deny before day of judgment, and so a Messenger is coming.

This is the Mahdi. He is not a Nabi but is a Messenger.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
No you didn't. You simply said that you weren't going to address any of my points because they were ill-informed and irrational.
That’s because they ARE ill-informed and irrational. So, tell me which point(s) of yours that are NOT irrational and ill-informed to be worth responding to??

If you look back over your posts, most of them are simply insults, ad homs and deflection.
I know.. truth does hurt and because of that, sometimes telling the truth to someone about who they really are, is often mistaken as insults, but they are not. so accept that instead of trying to deflect the truth.

The occasional point you do make (like disbelieving in god shows an inability to think rationally and logically) are so easily refuted that it is almost embarrassing to do so.
Is it almost embarrassing to do so or is it if you did, it would further expose your inability to think rationally and logically?? Let’s find out - tell me what evidence(s) do you have for the non-existence of God??
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Happy Birthday, since it's your Birthday, here you go:

With Allah rests guidance of the path, and from it are deviations and had He wished He would have guided you all. | An-Nahl : 9

That has nothing to do with hadiths.

The day We shall raise a witness from every nation, the faithless will not be permitted [to speak], nor will they be asked to propitiate [Allah]. | An-Nahl : 84

Neither does this. Also this is simply not true. The only "witness" raised in the name of Islam in the world was your self-appointed friend, Mohamed.

Certainly We raised an apostle in every nation [to preach:] ‘Worship Allah, and shun fake deities.’ Among them were some whom Allah guided, and among them were some who deserved to be in error. So travel over the land and observe how was the fate of the deniers. | An-Nahl : 36

It wasn't true the first time, and it still isn't true. This is clearly 'Allah' getting it wrong. Who was raised in China, India, Japan, Peru, etc., etc.?

[We sent them] with manifest proofs and scriptures. We have sent down the reminder to you so that you may clarify for the people that which has been sent down to them, so that they may reflect. | An-Nahl : 44

Ermmmm, this is a reference to the Qur'an, so we're still waiting for anything that even remotely suggests hadiths.

Mohammad's (s) role to clarify Quran

Nope, it's clearly saying that the Qur'an itself is the clarification. Read the words.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Happy Birthday, since it's your Birthday, here you go:

And We did not send before you except as men to whom We revealed to therefore ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7

That's just plain dishonest. "Ahla" means "the people", not "the family".
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's just plain dishonest. "Ahla" means "the people", not "the family".

Is this the case? People is not the primary meaning of the word. Family is. It can only mean people when it's obviously not family.

It's the same word used here:

وَاجْعَلْ لِي وَزِيرًا مِنْ أَهْلِي | Appoint for me a minister from my family, | Taa-Haa : 29

Quran surah Taha 29 (QS 20: 29) in arabic and english translation - Alquran english

Why did all translators translate it as family here and not people. Because "people" with this word, is a secondary meaning. The primary meaning is family. And since it was not impossible, for it to mean family, none of them translated it as people.

I apply the same principle to the "family of the reminder", while most translators, don't perceive the possibility of this as an expression.
 
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