Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

[JerryMyers]

Swing and a miss. I was referring to the point I made.

A ‘point’ that only demonstrated your inability to think logically and rationally? Sure, I will take a miss on that!

‘No submission in religion’ means exactly that -'NO SUBMISSION IN RELIGION'! Period.

Why take a simple and straightforward statement and try to make a pretzel out of it?? Do you think ‘no submission in religion’ means there is submission in religion??!

Gee, ya think?

You tell me. Or are you ashamed to tell me?? I understand.

100% dodge. The point of the OP is to discuss the context surrounding that quote and to show how quoting it alone can lead to a misunderstanding. You refuse to do that. Noted.

How can a simple and straightforward statement like ‘No compulsion in religion’ lead to a misunderstanding?? I supposed you find ‘No swimming in the sea’, ‘No trespassing’ can also lead to a misunderstanding, right??

Btw, your response that the phrase is "very clear by itself" precludes you from ever demanding that surrounding verses are necessary to glean proper meaning.

What other ‘proper meaning’ can there be to such a simple and straightforward statement like ‘No compulsion in religion’???! Do you think there are other ‘proper meanings’ to statements like ‘No swimming in the sea’ and ‘No trespassing’ too???

 

[JerryMyers]

That's because there is no difference.

No difference?? And yet you find there’s a difference between ‘No compulsion in religion’ and ‘There will be no compulsion in religion’??? Lol.

YES. That is EXACTLY what it means. I'm beginning to see that the way your 'logical' processes 'work' might lead you to believe Islam is a desirable belief.

So you see helping an elderly man from being robbed as interfering with the affair of the robber?? And if the robber was caught and taken to court, the judge will free the robber and put the man who helped the elderly man from being robbed in jail for interfering with the affair of the robber, right? I'm beginning to see that the way your 'logical' processes 'work' might lead you to believe that non-existence of a God is a desirable belief!

Is this a joke? The entire Qur'an is an attempt by Allah to change the habits of the world. And then there are little things like the flood.

Yes, I would think claiming ‘The entire Qur'an is an attempt by Allah to change the habits of the world’ is a joke! You might as well claim all the scriptures and all the laws around the world are an attempt to change the habits of the world too!! What a joker!

 

[JerryMyers]

It would save a lot of time if you just answered, "IS NOT" to every post.

Are you serious?? You cannot even understand a simple and straightforward statement like ‘No compulsion in religion’, and you expect me to believe that you can understand “IS NOT”??

 

[JerryMyers]

Ok, you are a sophisticated atheist troll, presenting a ridiculous parody of an irrational Muslim who will say literally any old nonsense simply to appear to be "refuting" a sceptic's argument.

What?? Do you mean you still have not figured out that I do believe in the existence of a God, for you to tell me I am an ‘atheist troll’?? Or maybe you are referring to yourself as an atheist troll?

This response alone leaves no other possible conclusion. No one can really be that dim, can they?

Well, you are proving it yourself that you can be that dim - if this response alone leaves no other possible conclusion, then, this response alone is THE ONLY POSSIBLE conclusion! If you are lost in a jungle and you find an exit path and you cannot find any other possible exits, then, that exit that you found is THE ONLY POSSIBLE exit! Only dimwits cannot figure that out!

If you intervene in a robbery to help the victim and prevent the robbery, you are interfering in the affairs of both the robber and the victim.
(I can't believe that I have actually gone to the trouble of explaining this. )

Let me get this right, you see preventing a robbery as interfering with the affairs of both the robber and the victim??!

So, the guilty party here is the one who prevented the robbery as he’s interfering in the affairs of both the robber and the victim (who, to you, was probably upset that his plan to be robbed was spoilt), right?
(I can't believe that I have actually gone to the trouble of responding to this.)

Erm, revealing the Quran? (Again, can't believe I'm still biting)

What??! Revealing the Quran (or for that matter, the Torah, the Gospel) is an example of God interfering in the affairs of man??! That’s like saying a key witness revealing the truth in court is interfering with the affairs of those on trial! (Again, can't believe I'm still biting)

Come on. I've sussed you out. You can stop playing now.

Come on, how further low can you stoop? Have you forgotten that I already exposed your dishonesty when you slyly changed the word ‘cults’ with ‘religions’ in my original statement to suit your response??

Let me refresh your memory –
My original statement (Post#57) was ‘Many people claimed they received revelation from God, but none have been proven legit. How do you think cults came to existence??’

However, in your Post#64 response, you edited that statement of mine to fool everyone that you are responding to ‘Many people claimed they received revelation from God, but none have been proven legit. How do you think religions came to existence??’

How low is that?? And you have the audacity to say you sussed me out??? You can stop playing now cause you have been exposed!!

 

[JerryMyers]

I also considered that, but the one thing that kept me from expressing doubt is his detailed knowledge (Battle of Uhud details for example). If he is trolling, then he's putting a scary amount of time into his little game. However, I agree that his spectacular display of cognitive dissonance and ability to point at black and call it white makes one wonder....

LOL! You guys are hilarious!!

 

[KWED]

How can a simple and straightforward statement like ‘No compulsion in religion’ lead to a misunderstanding??

Because there are other passages that clearly describe compulsion. It is yet another apparent contradiction in the Quran.

 

[KWED]

What?? Do you mean you still have not figured out that I do believe in the existence of a God, for you to tell me I am an ‘atheist troll’?? Or maybe you are referring to yourself as an atheist troll?

Fair enough. You are what you claim to be. Takes all sorts, I guess.

Let me get this right, you see preventing a robbery as interfering with the affairs of both the robber and the victim??!

It's not a matter of what I see. It is the definition of the word.

So, the guilty party here is the one who prevented the robbery as he’s interfering in the affairs of both the robber and the victim (who, to you, was probably upset that his plan to be robbed was spoilt), right?

The word does not imply guilt or innocence. It simply describes someone intervening to change the course of events.
Is English not your first language?

What??! Revealing the Quran (or for that matter, the Torah, the Gospel) is an example of God interfering in the affairs of man??! That’s like saying a key witness revealing the truth in court is interfering with the affairs of those on trial! (Again, can't believe I'm still biting)

Correct.
What do you think "interfere" means?

Come on, how further low can you stoop? Have you forgotten that I already exposed your dishonesty when you slyly changed the word ‘cults’ with ‘religions’ in my original statement to suit your response??

Let me refresh your memory –
My original statement (Post#57) was ‘Many people claimed they received revelation from God, but none have been proven legit. How do you think cults came to existence??’

However, in your Post#64 response, you edited that statement of mine to fool everyone that you are responding to ‘Many people claimed they received revelation from God, but none have been proven legit. How do you think religions came to existence??’

How low is that?? And you have the audacity to say you sussed me out??? You can stop playing now cause you have been exposed!!

The two words are synonymous.
Cult: A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. - Oxford English dictionary.
The only practical difference is size. All religions start as "cults", even Islam.

So, stop complaining about nothing and address the point. Why do you think that Muhammad's claimed revelations have been "proved legit" whereas none of the others have? Why was the cult of Islam the only true one?

 

[JerryMyers]

Because there are other passages that clearly describe compulsion. It is yet another apparent contradiction in the Quran.

Such as...??
Go ahead and expose your ignorance. Don't disappoint me now.

 

[JerryMyers]

Fair enough. You are what you claim to be. Takes all sorts, I guess.

Yup, it takes all sorts, for instance, take this unethical guy who has this bad habit of replacing words from a statement of another poster to correspond with his response and then trying to defend and justify his action! Can you believe that?? You think it has something to do with his upbringing?? I think so. Poor guy.

It's not a matter of what I see. It is the definition of the word.
The word does not imply guilt or innocence. It simply describes someone intervening to change the course of events.
Is English not your first language?

Definition, or rather the usage/application of the word, is dependent on the circumstances of the situation. Is that too complicated for you to understand??

Correct.
What do you think "interfere" means?

Interfere is to negatively impact a process from being completed. Then again, knowing you are such a simpleton who lacks logic and rationale, you would not understand that anyway.

The two words are synonymous.
Cult: A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. - Oxford English dictionary.
The only practical difference is size. All religions start as "cults", even Islam.

LOL. Why do you have to continuously display your inability to think maturely and intelligently??

Mainstream faiths such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, are NOT associated with pejorative or negative connotations to be labeled as ‘cults’ while associations/groups that are often associated with pejorative and negative connotations are labeled as ‘cults’. Mainstream faiths are accepted by the masses while cults are NOT accepted by the masses as cults are often viewed as abnormal.

You think your simple mind can understand the real differences between a religion and a cult, instead of thinking ‘the only practical difference is size’?? Maybe you are thinking size does make the difference if you know what I mean…hmm.

So, stop complaining about nothing and address the point.

Well, that’s one way to divert attention away from one's unethical conduct and the inability to think logically and rationally. I am sure you are making a living out of it.

Why do you think that Muhammad's claimed revelations have been "proved legit" whereas none of the others have??
Why was the cult of Islam the only true one?

When you tell me logically and rationally why the cult ‘atheism’ is legit, I will tell you logically and rationally why the Islam Faith is legit. Fair?

Any more demonstrations of your lack of logic and rationale thinking?? Keep them coming, ya?

 

[KWED]

Such as...??
Go ahead and expose your ignorance. Don't disappoint me now.

Every one where Allah says "Worship me or I will torture you forever", for starters.
Have you not read the Quran?

I suppose you are going to argue that if a mugger pulls a knife and says "hand over your wallet or I'll stab you", you are not compelled to hand it over by the threat of violent consequence of not complying with his request.

Of course, your poor standard of English vocabulary probably means that you don't know what "compulsion" means.

 

[JerryMyers]

Every one where Allah says "Worship me or I will torture you forever", for starters.
Have you not read the Quran?
I suppose you are going to argue that if a mugger pulls a knife and says "hand over your wallet or I'll stab you", you are not compelled to hand it over by the threat of violent consequence of not complying with his request.

And you have read the Quran?? So tell me where in the Quran did Allah says "Worship me or I will torture you forever"??

Of course, your poor standard of English vocabulary probably means that you don't know what "compulsion" means.

And your standard of English is ‘so good’ that when the Quran clearly said ‘(let there be) no compulsion in religion’, you understood that as ‘(let there be) compulsion in religion’!! And you said my standard of English is poor!! LOL. You need to stop cracking jokes, buddy!!

 

[KWED]

And you have read the Quran?? So tell me where in the Quran did Allah says "Worship me or I will torture you forever"??

Ok. So either you have never read the Quran or you are just trolling. Either way, not a good look.
Anyway, here are a few examples, from many...
[2:39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide
[2:161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all; Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be given respite.
[2:257] those who disbelieve, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
[3:10] (As for) those who disbelieve, these it is who are the fuel of the fire.
[3:12] Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.
[3:56] Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.

And your standard of English is ‘so good’ that when the Quran clearly said ‘(let there be) no compulsion in religion’, you understood that as ‘(let there be) compulsion in religion’!! And you said my standard of English is poor!! LOL. You need to stop cracking jokes, buddy!!

I can see you are confused.
The verse that says "no compulsion in religion" is contradicted by the verses that clearly show compulsion in religion. Not just the many where Allah says "worship me or I will torture you forever", but also the ones where he promotes fighting to spread Islam, and where he admits to causing disbelief himself.

You really should read the Quran itself rather than just watching Islamic propaganda videos.

As a convert, what was it about the Quran that persuaded you it was all true?

 

[KWED]

Yup, it takes all sorts, for instance, take this unethical guy who has this bad habit of replacing words from a statement of another poster to correspond with his response and then trying to defend and justify his action! Can you believe that?? You think it has something to do with his upbringing?? I think so. Poor guy.

In the context of people claiming to be messengers of god, there is no real difference.
Cult - A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. - Oxford English Dictionary.
Remember that Islam was a cult for its first decade or so.

You still haven't addressed the point I made, and that co inadvertently conceded - that no so-called "messenger of god" has ever proved to be legit. They are simply believed by the people who believe them. As the followers of Muhammaed and the cult of Islam did 7th century Mecca.

TBH, I'm not surprised that you keep running from that issue. It can't be comfortable for you to know you are essentially a member of a cult (albeit a pretty big one).

Definition, or rather the usage/application of the word, is dependent on the circumstances of the situation. Is that too complicated for you to understand??

"Interfere" means "Intervene in a situation without invitation or necessity; Prevent (a process or activity) from continuing or being carried out properly."
None of that implies context of "guilt".

Interfere is to negatively impact a process from being completed. Then again, knowing you are such a simpleton who lacks logic and rationale, you would not understand that anyway.

So if you interfered to prevent a mugging, you would negatively impact the process of the mugging, and negatively impact the mugger's actions.
Really not that difficult.

LOL. Why do you have to continuously display your inability to think maturely and intelligently??

Oh dear. So now quoting the definitions of words from the OED is "display your inability to think maturely and intelligently". Yet more words you don't seem to know the meaning of.

Mainstream faiths such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, are NOT associated with pejorative or negative connotations to be labeled as ‘cults’ while associations/groups that are often associated with pejorative and negative connotations are labeled as ‘cults’. Mainstream faiths are accepted by the masses while cults are NOT accepted by the masses as cults are often viewed as abnormal.

So you admit that the only difference is the number of followers or social acceptance.
You do realise that all the faiths you mentioned were cults when they first began? No, of course you don't.

 

[KWED]

When you tell me logically and rationally why the cult ‘atheism’ is legit, I will tell you logically and rationally why the Islam Faith is legit. Fair?

Firstly, atheism does not qualify as a "cult/religion" because it does not involve any worship or veneration of any leader of power. It is simply the rejection of a claim on the basis of lack of evidence or argument/evidence or argument against.

Atheism is a legitimate position because of the complete lack of evidence or rational argument to support any of the thousands of different claims of gods or the supernatural. It is not even necessarily a claim that no such thing exist, just that there is no reason to believe they exist.
The "evidence" presented by believers of any particular faith never stands up to examination. It always seems to rely on circular logic, an existing belief that the belief is true. It also usually applies to al the other beliefs.

Now your turn.
1. Why do you believe in the supernatural?
2. Why do you believe that Islam is the right version of the supernatural out of all the possible options?
(Remember that any anecdotes to do with personal feelings or experiences does not count as evidence or rational argument)

 

[stevecanuck]

And you have read the Quran?? So tell me where in the Quran did Allah says "Worship me or I will torture you forever"??

29:68 - "Who does greater wrong than he who invents a lie concerning Allah, or denies the truth when it comes to him? Is not there a home in hell for disbelievers?".

That's just one of many hundreds, but I'm sure you'll find a way to pretend it doesn't mean 'believe or burn'.

And your standard of English is ‘so good’ that when the Quran clearly said ‘(let there be) no compulsion in religion’, you understood that as ‘(let there be) compulsion in religion’!!

No he didn't. That's a lie.

Still can't figure out if you're having a laugh or if you're as deluded as you sound.

 

[JerryMyers]

Ok. So either you have never read the Quran or you are just trolling. Either way, not a good look.
Anyway, here are a few examples, from many...
[2:39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide
[2:161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all; Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be given respite.
[2:257] those who disbelieve, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
[3:10] (As for) those who disbelieve, these it is who are the fuel of the fire.
[3:12] Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.
[3:56] Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.

Those are the examples of where God says "worship me or I will torture you forever"???!!!

Do you know what ‘Hell’ is and do you know the meaning of ‘a warning’?? If you do, do you know what kind of people are destined to be in it??

You really should read the Quran itself rather than just watching Islamic propaganda videos.

Exactly what you should do!!!! Were you facing a mirror when you wrote that??

As a convert, what was it about the Quran that persuaded you it was all true?

It’s not only the Quran, it’s also people like you who lack the ability to think logically and rationally that convinced me of the truth of Islam.

 

[JerryMyers]

In the context of people claiming to be messengers of god, there is no real difference.
Cult - A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. - Oxford English Dictionary.
Remember that Islam was a cult for its first decade or so.

Let me say it again – “Mainstream faiths such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, are NOT associated with pejorative or negative connotations to be labeled as ‘cults’ while associations/groups that are often associated with pejorative and negative connotations are labeled as ‘cults’. Mainstream faiths are accepted by the masses while cults are NOT accepted by the masses as cults are often viewed as abnormal”.

Your simple mind STILL cannot see the difference??

You still haven't addressed the point I made, and that co inadvertently conceded - that no so-called "messenger of god" has ever proved to be legit. They are simply believed by the people who believe them. As the followers of Muhammaed and the cult of Islam did 7th century Mecca.

So what proof have you got that all ‘messengers of God’ are NOT legit??? Because they don’t preach what the cult atheism preaches??

TBH, I'm not surprised that you keep running from that issue. It can't be comfortable for you to know you are essentially a member of a cult (albeit a pretty big one).

Lol… what a funny guy you are!!! Have you ever considered stand-up comedy as a profession?? You are such a natural and could make tons of money in that profession!!

"Interfere" means "Intervene in a situation without invitation or necessity; Prevent (a process or activity) from continuing or being carried out properly."
None of that implies context of "guilt".

I suppose you don’t see much difference between ‘interfere’ and ‘intervene’ either, right?? Is English your first language??

And what ‘guilt’ got to do with it?? You mean if a criminal did not feel guilty of his crime, it means he’s innocent of his crime??

So if you interfered to prevent a mugging, you would negatively impact the process of the mugging, and negatively impact the mugger's actions.
Really not that difficult.

Looks like you don’t know what ‘negatively impart’ means!!

Oh dear. So now quoting the definitions of words from the OED is "display your inability to think maturely and intelligently". Yet more words you don't seem to know the meaning of.

Oh dear. Yes, it does display your inability to think maturely and intelligently. Do you know when to apply the word ‘interfere’ and when to apply the word ‘intervene’??

So you admit that the only difference is the number of followers or social acceptance.

It’s about acceptance, not numbers, and cults are NOT accepted by the masses. Never mind, don’t think your simple mind can understand that.

You do realise that all the faiths you mentioned were cults when they first began? No, of course you don't.

No, mainstream faiths are not cults when they began. They have few followers in their early days because they were unknown to the masses but they grew in numbers through time. Cults have few followers in their early days AND remain few through time even when they are known to the masses. Atheism is a good example of a cult.

 

[JerryMyers]

Firstly, atheism does not qualify as a "cult/religion" because it does not involve any worship or veneration of any leader of power. It is simply the rejection of a claim on the basis of lack of evidence or argument/evidence or argument against.

Well, believing in the non-existence of a Supreme Creator/God is a belief. Like all beliefs, you don’t become an atheist all on your own, you became an atheist because you are influenced and convinced of someone’s else perception of a no-gods world. So don’t tell me atheism does not qualify as a cult because it does not involve any veneration of any leader – it does! Did you become an atheist because you look up to someone like Charles Darwin and his ‘Theory of Evolution’???

Atheism is a legitimate position because of the complete lack of evidence or rational argument to support any of the thousands of different claims of gods or the supernatural. It is not even necessarily a claim that no such thing exist, just that there is no reason to believe they exist.
The "evidence" presented by believers of any particular faith never stands up to examination. It always seems to rely on circular logic, an existing belief that the belief is true. It also usually applies to al the other beliefs.
Now your turn.
1. Why do you believe in the supernatural?
2. Why do you believe that Islam is the right version of the supernatural out of all the possible options?
(Remember that any anecdotes to do with personal feelings or experiences does not count as evidence or rational argument)

As I said before, the signs of the existence of a Supreme Creator/God are all around you, even in yourself.

I gave you a short video that clearly shows, logically and rationally that even Science is beginning to accept that the existence of a Supreme Creator/God is the best explanation of our very own existence, BUT because you lack the ability to think logically and rationally, your mind just cannot process the facts as shown in that video!! Fact is, you got no evidence for the non-existence of God other than your inability to think logically and rationally.

 

[JerryMyers]

29:68 - "Who does greater wrong than he who invents a lie concerning Allah, or denies the truth when it comes to him? Is not there a home in hell for disbelievers?".
That's just one of many hundreds, but I'm sure you'll find a way to pretend it doesn't mean 'believe or burn'.

Do you know what ‘Hell’ is???

Did you also think that when you entered a country like Singapore where drug trafficking is punishable by death, it means Singapore is saying ‘obey me or I will kill you’??

No he didn't. That's a lie.

He didn’t say that? He could have fooled me!
What did you think he was saying??

Still can't figure out if you're having a laugh or if you're as deluded as you sound.

You bet I am having a laugh! As I said before you guys are hilarious!!

 

[stevecanuck]

Do you know what ‘Hell’ is???

Trying to converse with you.