Questions regarding Surah At-Tariq verse 4-6

[Aquitaine]

Errm. Did I say that it means Semen?

It was a refutation of those who say Sperm. I was asking them where did you get that from? It is not from the Quran nor is it from any translation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you wrote:

Semen as I said already comes from the prostate glands and seminal vesicle. These are not close to the testes, they are above, between the loins and the ribs.

I interpreted this as you essentially implying that the Quran refers to Semen, and that (lo and behold!) the verse magically loses its error.

 

[Augustus]

If the "science" in the Quran wasn't imported in/plagiarized then what is your alternative possibility?

Why would someone in the 7th C referring to ideas well know in their cultural environment be best described as 'plagiarism'?

 

[Aquitaine]

Why would someone in the 7th C referring to ideas well know in their cultural environment be best described as 'plagiarism'?

If they are trying to pass it off as their own, as in from the Quran. Yes it is true that the "science" in the Quran was already discovered before the time of Muhammad, in different cultures across the planet and in history.
What is your alternative opinion on where these "scientific miracles" came from?

 

[Augustus]

If they are trying to pass it off as their own, as in from the Quran. Yes it is true that the "science" in the Quran was already discovered before the time of Muhammad, in different cultures across the planet and in history.
What is your alternative opinion on where these "scientific miracles" came from?

They came from Saudi Arabia in the 1980s as part of an organised campaign ti find them.

There is no 'science' to speak of. Do you really think something like this is 'scientific' knowledge?

We created man of an extraction of clay, (12)then We set him, a drop, in a receptacle secure, (13)then We created of the drop a clot then We created of the clot a tissue then We created of the tissue bones then We garmented the bones in flesh; thereafter We produced him as another creature. So blessed be God, the fairest of creators!

Even if you do, Galen wrote 500 years before this, ample time for such ideas to be fairly widely known and thus 'common knowledge', which is very different from 'plagiarism'.

 

[Aquitaine]

They came from Saudi Arabia in the 1980s as part of an organised campaign ti find them.

There is no 'science' to speak of. Do you really think something like this is 'scientific' knowledge?

We created man of an extraction of clay, (12)then We set him, a drop, in a receptacle secure, (13)then We created of the drop a clot then We created of the clot a tissue then We created of the tissue bones then We garmented the bones in flesh; thereafter We produced him as another creature. So blessed be God, the fairest of creators!

Even if you do, Galen wrote 500 years before this, ample time for such ideas to be fairly widely known and thus 'common knowledge', which is very different from 'plagiarism'.

I am talking about the people who deny the influence of Galen (and others) on the authors of the Quran, the people who claim that such ideas independantly arose in the Quran and that they are scientifically valid. What I am saying seems to be essentially the same as what you are saying: that people already held such models and ideas well before the introduction of Islam.

 

[Shad]

Loins are not gentiles but the area between the lowest ribs and above the pelvis. The prostate gland is within the pelvis area not above it, its actually very low in the pelvis. The verse using loins as a translation is still wrong.

 

[firedragon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you wrote:



I interpreted this as you essentially implying that the Quran refers to Semen, and that (lo and behold!) the verse magically loses its error.

Nope. I think you should read this post in the beginning of the thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...surah-at-tariq-verse-4-6.186202/#post-4702324

 

[Aquitaine]

Nope. I think you should read this post in the beginning of the thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...surah-at-tariq-verse-4-6.186202/#post-4702324

So. . . your conclusion is that the majority of the "mixture" is the liquid the Quran is talking about?

 

[firedragon]

So. . . your conclusion is that the majority of the "mixture" is the liquid the Quran is talking about?

Its not a conclusion, its a theory in answer to the question in the OP.

 

[firedragon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you wrote:



I interpreted this as you essentially implying that the Quran refers to Semen, and that (lo and behold!) the verse magically loses its error.

Magic.

 

[Aquitaine]

Its not a conclusion, its a theory in answer to the question in the OP.

So it's your own hypothesis? Do you have an Islamic authority whom you can ask on the subject - an Imam etc?
Such a verse cannot be left unresolved, for very crucial reasons.

 

[firedragon]

So it's your own hypothesis? Do you have an Islamic authority whom you can ask on the subject - an Imam etc?
Such a verse cannot be left unresolved, for very crucial reasons.

If you think it cannot be, just say it with reason.

This kind of thing cannot sent through Islamic authority or Imams etc.

 

[Aquitaine]

If you think it cannot be, just say it with reason.

This kind of thing cannot sent through Islamic authority or Imams etc.

It can't be interpreted/guided by an Islamic authority, why not?

 

[firedragon]

It can't be interpreted/guided by an Islamic authority, why not?

Already interpreted as Liquid or water.

 

[Aquitaine]

Already interpreted as Liquid or water.

Yes, but it doesn't offer any further insight. If it was not for biological science people may falsly misattribute it. Hell even with the science of human anatomy we're still blind as to what exactly this verse is referring to, other than a liquid.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, but it doesn't offer any further insight. If it was not for biological science people may falsly misattribute it. Hell even with the science of human anatomy we're still blind as to what exactly this verse is referring to, other than a liquid.

Bro. It just says Liquid or water. We can have a theory no matter how plausible it is or not. But its just a theory, unless we speak to the author himself.

 

[Aquitaine]

Bro. It just says Liquid or water. We can have a theory no matter how plausible it is or not. But its just a theory, unless we speak to the author himself.

So in that case this verse is useless, as its message cannot be understood accurately by humans, right?
So what is the point in this verse?

 

[codex]

So in that case this verse is useless, as its message cannot be understood accurately by humans, right?
So what is the point in this verse?

Mate. When someone out of humility says that this is just a theory, dont take it as a suggestion only. Your questions are only to try and draw weakspots for argument.

 

[Aquitaine]

Mate. When someone out of humility says that this is just a theory, dont take it as a suggestion only. Your questions are only to try and draw weakspots for argument.

I guess my expectations are just too high for documents which claim to be divinely authoured. . .

 

[FearGod]

The point of this thread is to gain deeper understanding in verses 4-6 of the 86th Surah (At-Tariq). There are some controversies on this forum surrounding these verses, so I'd like to go over them thoroughly. =) Here are two different translations that give vastly different explanations... (http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/)

Yusuf Ali: (4) Now let man but think from what he is created! (5) He is created from a drop emitted― (6) Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Pickthal: (4) So let man consider from what he is created. (5) He is created from a gushing fluid (6) That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Now, even though the verse itself doesn't say "semen" outright (in fact, some translations say "water"), it seems that the verses are describing semen; after all, what other liquid ejecting from a person's body creates people?

The problem is that the ejaculatory duct is found in the pelvis (bellow the bladder), and some translations say that this liquid comes from between the ribs and the backbone. Other translations say that the liquid comes from between between the ribs and the loins; depending on the meaning of the word "loins" this could have vastly different implications (one area being along the spine, the other being down by the sexual organs).

So I guess my first questions are, "Is the Arabic word for 'loins' and 'spine' really the same word," and "What specifically are the word's meanings?" =/

Thanks!

Edit: Oh, by the way, I believe these are the verses in Arabic?

إِن كُلُّ نَفۡسٍ۬ لَّمَّا عَلَيۡہَا حَافِظٌ۬ (٤) فَلۡيَنظُرِ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (٥) خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ۬ دَافِقٍ۬ (٦)

Compare the 2 verses 86:6-7 with the Arabic words in the image
Best English translation

He was created from gushing liquid (86:6)
Going out between the loins (Or: backbone) and the breastbones (86:7)