Questions of interest to Bahai's

[firedragon]

Do Baha'is even believe in demons/gins?

As far as I know the Bahai's believe Gin's are a symbolic reference.

Muslims vary far and wide when it comes to Gins.

The word means "Nomad". And is not absolutely clear of what it means. Must think through the text.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. So the standard is that anyone who produces verses like those many who made up chapters in arabic are God's. Thats invalid.

2. Ah. So now you are asking for what is signs of God! And about science, pure scienceetc etc. Can you explain something because you say there is no miracle whatsoever and its all pure science? Okay.

Thanks for asking about Big Bang. You asked me if I know, well, most people in the world know because it was probably taught to them in school at some point. But maybe you think I didn't go to school for some reason. Thats good. Good for you seriously.

You should know that the Big Bang theory is based on the radius on in the universe exactly accelerating in length at the optimal point enough to maintain the universe without a Big Crunch. Its as stable an expansion as any one could ever imagine. Thus, the theory of the Big Bang was born. This theory of the Big Bang though not by name was cited in the Qur'an 1400 years ago in two ways and corresponds to the new discovery in the 20th century by Edwin Hubble. One is the single point or Ratqan that was cloven apart indicating the Big Bang directly and the lamoosioona in the Qur'an which means a "steady/stable expansion of the universe" just as discovered by scientists in the 20th century. So yes. That is about Big Bang.

3. You said I have not brought in one claim to disprove Bab's claim. See, this thread was not created to disprove anything. It was to seek answers. You have not provided anything. It was you who brought in the Qayyoom al Asma as a book in the style of the Qur'an. SO it is your burden to provide the evidence which you have not. All you have said is its in arabic. But you dont even know what this book is about and you already have claimed its personal to ask what you know. See what you dont understand is when you claim something, it is your burden of proof and it is your burden to have knowledge of it. You have no knowledge of it whatsoever and by the way you have responded its simple to see. Now asking me to provide some kind of debunking to Bab's claim is called the "burden of proof fallacy". That happens generally when people make claims they cannot substantiate but needs it established.

How do you define a miracle?
A miracle is an act, that can be done extremely rarely. Something that people normally cannot do. For example, in the history, it is said, Moses had a stick which turned to a big snake. Assuming this really happened, it was something extremely rare. Something that normally, people cannot do.
Likewise in the history of mankind very few people brought verses in Arabic, which claimed to be the Words of God. This act is extremely rare, and in fact Since Muhammad, almost 1500 years passed, Only the Bab did the same claim, that is bringing verses in Arabic, and claiming them to be Word of God. You seem to overlook this! Of course there has been many people who claimed to be Mahdi, or a Prophet after Muhammad, but non of them, brought verses, claiming to be the words and commands from God. This is a miracle, since in the history, it happened extremely rare, which is what the Quran claimed, that, no one other than God can reveal it. It is only for this reason that, the Quran is a miracle, otherwise, if many people could bring verses and claim them to be from God, then there was nothing miracle about the Quran.

 

[firedragon]

How do you define a miracle?
A miracle is an act, that can be done extremely rarely. Something that people normally cannot do. For example, in the history, it is said, Moses had a stick which turned to a big snake. Assuming this really happened, it was something extremely rare. Something that normally, people cannot do.
Likewise in the history of mankind very few people brought verses in Arabic, which claimed to be the Words of God. This act is extremely rare, and in fact Since Muhammad, almost 1500 years passed, Only the Bab did the same claim, that is bringing verses in Arabic, and claiming them to be Word of God. You seem to overlook this! Of course there has been many people who claimed to be Mahdi, or a Prophet after Muhammad, but non of them, brought verses, claiming to be the words and commands from God. This is a miracle, since in the history, it happened extremely rare, which is what the Quran claimed, that, no one other than God can reveal it. It is only for this reason that, the Quran is a miracle, otherwise, if many people could bring verses and claim them to be from God, then there was nothing miracle about the Quran.

But it’s nothing like the Quran. Quran doesn’t say bring a verse in Arabic, it says all the fins and humans put together cannot bring signs like this.

Anyway, the babs book has chapter names. Tell me where the chapter names in the Quran came from.

 

[CG Didymus]

As far as I know the Bahai's believe Gin's are a symbolic reference.

Bahais believe Ginns have symbolic meaning. Feel free to find its symbolic meaning.

Thanks, I didn't think so. But, in the physical universe there are opposing forces. Then, as usual, in religions make it seem like demons and evil gods do exist. But, with the Baha'i Faith, without them, then that means in the spiritual worlds there are no "evil" or "negative" forces at work tempting and testing the spirts/souls of men?

 

[firedragon]

Thanks, I didn't think so. But, in the physical universe there are opposing forces. Then, as usual, in religions make it seem like demons and evil gods do exist. But, with the Baha'i Faith, without them, then that means in the spiritual worlds there are no "evil" or "negative" forces at work tempting and testing the spirts/souls of men?

Out of curiosities sake, why do you think Gin's are "Negative" or "Evil"?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But it’s nothing like the Quran. Quran doesn’t say bring a verse in Arabic, it says all the fins and humans put together cannot bring signs like this.

Anyway, the babs book has chapter names. Tell me where the chapter names in the Quran came from.

One of the surrahs of Quran does not start with Bismillah alrahmaan alraheem. Why? Looks like sometimes there are inconsistencies in the Quran, even it was Authored by the same Person. If Quran was really revealed by God, it must be perfectly consistent, don't you think so? What do you think about this kind of criticizing? I think it is shallow, but if we are looking for a reason to reject, we can certainly find one!

 

[firedragon]

One of the surrahs of Quran does not start with Bismillah alrahmaan alraheem. Why? Looks like sometimes there are inconsistencies in the Quran, even it was Authored by the same Person. If Quran was really revealed by God, it must be perfectly consistent, don't you think so? What do you think about this kind of criticizing? I think it is shallow, but if we are looking for a reason to reject, we can certainly find one!

The question was "Anyway, the babs book has chapter names. Tell me where the chapter names in the Quran came from."

Your answer "a Surah doesn't have a basmalah".

Its like a person asking "where are you off too" and the other responds "I have coconuts at home".

Absolutely irrelevant.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks, I didn't think so. But, in the physical universe there are opposing forces. Then, as usual, in religions make it seem like demons and evil gods do exist. But, with the Baha'i Faith, without them, then that means in the spiritual worlds there are no "evil" or "negative" forces at work tempting and testing the spirts/souls of men?

Gins are not considered demons unless you mean demons are faithful servants of God except for one.

Demons is an English word that has a certain connotation to you. Gins in the Quran does not mean that. Gins are faithful servants of God. Satan was "one of those Gin's". Thats it.

So Satan is the only negative force in spirituality FYI. Gins in general are not any kind of negative force. Demons is not an Islamic concept.

Also when it comes to satan, its not the one you understand in the English language we have inherited. Shayatheeena means "rebellious deviation".

Anyway, that's another conversation. Bottomline is, you have understood Gin's as something evil. Dont mix Gins with this idea of Demons.

I hope you understand.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The question was "Anyway, the babs book has chapter names. Tell me where the chapter names in the Quran came from."

Your answer "a Surah doesn't have a basmalah".

Its like a person asking "where are you off too" and the other responds "I have coconuts at home".

Absolutely irrelevant.

I know. But my friend, your question is also not much related to OP.
I also did not read where the name of Surrahs of Quran came from.
But I think, you want to say, Muhammad did not name the Surrahs, but the Bab named them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Out of curiosities sake, why do you think Gin's are "Negative" or "Evil"?

Oh, I was going under the assumption they were the same as the Christian demons. So they can be either good or bad or neutral? Each religion has different ways of explaining the mysterious spiritual realm and what kind of spirit beings exist there. (I see there is another post where you explain it. Thanks.)

 

[CG Didymus]

Gins are not considered demons unless you mean demons are faithful servants of God except for one.

Demons is an English word that has a certain connotation to you. Gins in the Quran does not mean that. Gins are faithful servants of God. Satan was "one of those Gin's". Thats it.

So Satan is the only negative force in spirituality FYI. Gins in general are not any kind of negative force. Demons is not an Islamic concept.

Also when it comes to satan, its not the one you understand in the English language we have inherited. Shayatheeena means "rebellious deviation".

Anyway, that's another conversation. Bottomline is, you have understood Gin's as something evil. Dont mix Gins with this idea of Demons.

I hope you understand.

Kind of like the Jewish HaSatan is not the same as the Christian Satan? Thanks, your knowledge astounds me. I'm learning a lot from you and many others here on the forum.

 

[firedragon]

I know. But my friend, your question is also not much related to OP.
I also did not read where the name of Surrahs of Quran came from.
But I think, you want to say, Muhammad did not name the Surrahs, but the Bab named them.

It was you quoted and shared the book and made many many claims about it and suddenly its irrelevant? Also, in a post that is opened to ask question about the Bahai faith?

Of course there were no chapter headings in the Quran and of course the Bab thought it had because at that time many in the place did.

If the Bab was God he would have know the Quran being his own revelation never had chapter names and told us "I did not reveal chapter names in the Quran but this book is very different and I am including chapter names strange to the Quran" rather than claiming its "in the Quranic style".

So that's a huge blunder, because these are headings, not one or two words inside a chapter.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Kind of like the Jewish HaSatan is not the same as the Christian Satan? Thanks, your knowledge astounds me. I'm learning a lot from you and many others here on the forum.

Brother. In the Qur'an, sometimes the word Shaythan or Satan as we know is mentioned as a standalone without a handle "al". Though a lot of people think and do translate both as "Satan", in arabic the word has a root meaning which means a deviance with rebellion. e.g. when a space degree or a comet is coming directly at earth its deviating form its normal path. Thats called "Shayatheena" or rebellious deviation. That is not Satan. Its just a simple word.

Thats what I tried to say. So hope I didnt confuse you. And yes, its exactly like Ha Satan in Hebrew.

 

[CG Didymus]

Brother. In the Qur'an, sometimes the word Shaythan or Satan as we know is mentioned as a standalone without a handle "al". Though a lot of people think and do translate both as "Satan", in arabic the word has a root meaning which means a deviance with rebellion. e.g. when a space degree or a comet is coming directly at earth its deviating form its normal path. Thats called "Shayatheena" or rebellious deviation. That is not Satan. Its just a simple word.

Thats what I tried to say. So hope I didnt confuse you. And yes, its exactly like Ha Satan in Hebrew.

Thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If the Bab was God he would have know the Quran being his own revelation never had chapter names and told us "I did not reveal chapter names in the Quran but this book is very different and I am including chapter names strange to the Quran" rather than claiming its "in the Quranic style".

I don't think God owes us to explain things like that.
Adding chapters name by God, is better than if people invented Quran's chapter names.
The Quran itself is not consistent either always. Why a chapter does not start with Bismillah alrahmaan....? According to your logic, if Quran was from God, it would have explained why one of the chapters does not have Bismillah.... so, maybe Muhammad simply forgot to add that there?
But do all Surrahs of Qayyoom Alasma start with Bismillah...? Maybe that is another difference between Qayoom alasmaa and Quran.

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahais believe Ginns have symbolic meaning. Feel free to find its symbolic meaning.

Can you quote something from the writings that clearly states that demons and Ginns are symbolic? It is rather important since many Christians even today believe demons and the devil and out there trying to get them.

 

[firedragon]

I don't think God owes us to explain things like that.
Adding chapters name by God, is better than if people invented Quran's chapter names.
The Quran itself is not consistent either always. Why a chapter does not start with Bismillah alrahmaan....? According to your logic, if Quran was from God, it would have explained why one of the chapters does not have Bismillah.... so, maybe Muhammad simply forgot to add that there?
But do all Surrahs of Qayyoom Alasma start with Bismillah...? Maybe that is another difference between Qayoom alasmaa and Quran.

Well. In your own logic, does God really have to explain why a Basmalah is not there? Or is there another significance by having 114 basmalahs in the Quran anyway? Well, there is. So if you think from that angle, maybe it was done on purpose. 114 chapters, 114 basmalahs.

Sorry to say this, but the way you are trying to explain the Qayyoom al asma, you dont seem to know what it is. But I can see that in the same source you shared regarding the book of the Bab, they have explained what it is which I honestly think you seem to have missed.

Anyway, I think there is no point discussing this any further. I have learned something from you about the Bahai faith and that's interesting to me.

One thing I would like to urge you to do is understand the Quran further. I dont mean that condescendingly but I dont know how you would take it. And if you have a problem with the Quran or anything like that, I would first ask the question rather than making statements.

Peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well. In your own logic, does God really have to explain why a Basmalah is not there? Or is there another significance by having 114 basmalahs in the Quran anyway? Well, there is. So if you think from that angle, maybe it was done on purpose. 114 chapters, 114 basmalahs.

Sorry to say this, but the way you are trying to explain the Qayyoom al asma, you dont seem to know what it is. But I can see that in the same source you shared regarding the book of the Bab, they have explained what it is which I honestly think you seem to have missed.

Anyway, I think there is no point discussing this any further. I have learned something from you about the Bahai faith and that's interesting to me.

One thing I would like to urge you to do is understand the Quran further. I dont mean that condescendingly but I dont know how you would take it. And if you have a problem with the Quran or anything like that, I would first ask the question rather than making statements.

Peace.

The example I mentioned from Quran was just show, if one is looking for defects in the Quran, certainly could find them. It doesn't mean, I personally see it as defects. I believe it is a direct word of God. But, if we weigh the Books of Prophets according to our own standards, we think we found errors and defects in them! This is the point I am trying to make here, and that is what Bahaullah taught:

"Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 198-199

 

[firedragon]

The example I mentioned from Quran was just show, if one is looking for defects in the Quran, certainly could find them.

When you dont read a book, or/and know the book intricately, you can find things you think are mistakes but could be such a lame one.

When you find a so called "defect" before making that statement as a fact, one must ask about it, clarify it, then make the case. Not just blurt things out they dont understand.

The Qur'an says to ponder over things, not believe blindly. For when a person brings a piece of information verify it says God.

You have questions? Ask first prior to making your case. I had questions I asked you, I didnt make a case before asking. I just did not get any answers that moved me. You are making statements about the Quran just to make a point which are ones that some evangelists make by learning those tactics from their mission. I know how that works. But when that kind of rhetoric reaches its so silly that you feel sorry for them to be mislead by falsehood to this length.

You made the same "error seeking" that they did just to give an example. Thats invalid. First you should be able to provide insight to your own book that was questioned about.

Anyway, cheers.