I see a Muslim is one that Submits to One God. So I see your view is valid.
We should not veil ourselves by the Names God has sent the Messengers in.
Have to go, have a great day. Regards Tony
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Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan
- Start date
I see a Muslim is one that Submits to One God. So I see your view is valid.
We should not veil ourselves by the Names God has sent the Messengers in.
Have to go, have a great day. Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A few months ago, I posted this to a Muslim who was asking me if the Baha'i Faith has five pillars:
The Baha'i Faith has five pillars but they are not practiced the same as the Muslims.
1. Baha'is have a Profession of Faith. The belief that "There is no god but God, and Baha'u'llah is the Messenger of God for this age is central to the Baha'i Faith.
2. The Obligatory Prayers
3. 161. payment of Zakát # 146
4. Nineteen-Day Fast
5. Baháʼí pilgrimage
Thank you, I haven't looked into it yet (maybe the person you wrote to before was also just me again), but I'll be studying the obligatory prayers thing to see how they do it and if the whole thing is the same pretty much or enough, in which case I wouldn't be able to see how the Bahai are not also Muslims pretty much and should be fine and left alone, being superior to most Christians then in my view (since the Christians seem to rarely worship God in any formal or regular fashion like the Ancient variants may have and some today in some Old types of sects).
How about the butt washing thing?
If we can see that or get people to basically believe in One God and that they worship this One God throughout the day, in a Muslim fashion or similar enough, and keep their bodies clean with ablution and thoroughly hygiene regularly or when they go to the bathroom, then even if people are using different names for God, they are in my opinion identical mainly to Muslims and fulfilling the suggested procedures mentioned in the Qur'an which were practiced also by ancient people, early Christians, Zoroastrians, a lot of people, Buddhists even.
If they do those things, then we have more following the One Religion, whether called Bahai with only the slightest differences or differences in who they consider founders or leaders for themselves, or called Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, whatever.
All it would need is One God/Intelligent Power responsible for bringing things about and answering prayers, that is worshipped (in the Muslim fashion or pretty much close enough, with ablutions and prostrations), and then also maybe the importance of kindness, charity, some fasting (in the Muslim fashion, ideally covering a month throughout the year, not to let the mainstream Muslims out do anyone or be the most in this regard but to match them or exceed them otherwise and never be deficient), and then some sort of pilgrimage for whoever can do it, a journey "for God" as a devotional act of worship.
That would then be sufficient I think, for any member of any of the major religions, to be actually Muslims and save themselves on the day of Judgment before God (if what the Qur'an threatens is true). It would also fulfil the One Religion of Baha'u'llah, even if Baha'u'llah or Muhammed are not mentioned by the people, I don't think either of them are as necessary to the religion as there being only the One God (Intelligent Power) and worshipping the One God (in the Muslim fashion or similar enough, with ablutions and prostrations for example), and being charitable and kind, giving in charity, fasting, and pilgrimage.
If one can get anyone there, even they prefer to call God "Satan" or "Devil" or something, I don't think it makes a difference, so long as their concept is that there is Only One Power and they are calling on it alone as there is nothing else to call on which can answer their prayers.
That is my religion, so I think I am mainly covering all the bases of a Muslim / Bahai, as well as many of the bases of many of the other religions also, which I believe are all sufficiently covered by the Islamic System in the Qur'an.
If you do these things, which I perceive that you probably do, then you're a Muslim and not being outdone by any of the Muslims either (like if you worship Allah at least 5 times a day formally, more being better even and for your own sake, and if the Bahai fashion of ablution and worship is pretty much near identical or very close to that of the Muslims, with praises of Allah and pleas to Allah and statements regarding Allah, reciting prayers, and motions like standing, bowing, prostrating, kneeling, and affirmations of Monotheism and the Oneness of God and all that).
Whoever does those things, shouldn't really have anything to fear when facing the Judgment, because they lived and practiced as a Muslim (which for anyone who doesn't know, it is often said to mean One Who Surrenders to God, and in an extended meaning may mean One who finds relief/healing/peace in acceptance or acknowledgment (of the truth regarding The Reality/God)).
Very few people these days clean themselves, are clean throughout the day, and very few worship God in any formal fashion or the Muslim fashion (except the huge amount of Muslims, and now probably the Bahai as well, and then some of the other people from other religions but not as many or in the fashion of the Muslims as closely as the Muslims and Bahai, though there are even Jews who worship like Muslims still, and did so in the past more probably).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know if there is anything about that but there is a lot about cleanliness in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas which is Bahá'u'lláh's book of laws, written in Arabic around 1873 while He was still imprisoned within the city of 'Akká. It is considered the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith. As I recall, it was translated into English in 1982.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Geez...
Your Baha’u’llah bombastic gobbledygook decoder ring must be defective.
But hell, if you knew how to read you would have noticed that HE keeps on using the term THEY, meaning OTHERS, and NOT himself.
Unbelievable!
And besides all that misunderstanding of your's, if you really knew about true spiritual matters, you would know that EVERYONE'S SOUL is a minuscule "manifestation of God".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
My decoder works just fine. Did I say that Baha'u'llah was referring only to Himself in that passage? I know that Baha'u'llah was referring to all the Manifestations of God (THEY), but since He was a Manifestation of God, the passage also applies to Him.
Please provide verifiable evidence that shows that you have a way to know anything about true spiritual matters.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Sorry, but your decoder ring IS broken.
Baha'u'llah did not refer to himself even once. All his bumblings were THEY.
Do you have even a fundamental understanding of the English language?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
When did I say that he was referring to Himself? Go back and read what I posted to that poster.
I never said that Baha'u'llah was referring to Himself.
I said: "Baha'u'lah was a Manifestation of God and a Messenger of God and a Servant of God. The Only Sense in which Baha’u’llah was God is that He manifested the Attributes and Names of God. He was the Voice of God, but He was not God. The following passage explains this:"
Do you? If you do, please provide verifiable evidence that shows that you have a way to know anything about true spiritual matters.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Benovalent! That is very funny. He ex-communicated many of the fellow Babis and nearly all his family. He was like Emperor Ashoka who is reported to have killed his 99 brothers to get the throne.
Not any that you have presented in the forum. A napkin is not a proof.
That is what many forum members are saying. A claim is not evidence, and you have nothing more than a claim for your 19th Century Iranian preacher.
Actually there is none at all in any monotheist or Abrahamic religion, not even with Hare-Krishnas of Hinduism.
Character is a complicated thing. That he was claiming something without any showing any evidence shows his character. His revelation is a rehash of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. His words are a Greek salad.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never said that a claim is evidence. I said a claim is not evidence.
I have more than a claim and I have posted the evidence many times on this forum. It might not be evidence to other people but that does not mean it is not evidence.
There is no such thing as universal evidence.
What is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person.
It is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.
It is not evidence to you since it does not indicate to you that my beliefs are true.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
On the other thread you asked: "Have you listed out all the evidence you have in detail anywhere? Who cares if people mock it, but I'd like to see at least."
I believe that Messengers if God are evidence for God's existence and that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the greatest proof of God's existence.
Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims
All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:
In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.
This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.
Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.
Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.
With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.
https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night
The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
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PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Baha'is believe a new race of Man are required to see Baha'is thinking to be fulfilled.
So why is god sending messages to the old race of Man? Knowing we are ignoring them.
So why is god sending messages to the old race of Man? Knowing we are ignoring them.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Bahaullah says he's the messenger from god.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, that is not true. A new race of Man is not required to recognize Baha'u'llah and follow His teachings and laws.
God is sending messages to the old race of man so that they can become a New Race of Men.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, He does. He has to say that so people will know that.
What is He supposed to say, that He is an garbage collector?
"I believe that Messengers of God are evidence for God's existence and that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the greatest proof of God's existence."
When the atheists ask for proof, I think they are asking for something else, and could not be satisfied by pointing to a now historical figure and saying that they were the proof, especially with no floating around and laser beam eyes or anything, which still shouldn't convince anyone.
I will have to read your writing in that post more carefully, but it is already pretty amazing and makes me wonder a lot how a person could be the proof.
You wrote:
"Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims
All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:"
Jerky response:
They didn't have any power in my view though, they were nobodies.
You wrote:
In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.
This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions."
Jerky response:
I can agree that its young, and like most young people, sounding like it wants to be all grown up already, and having little respect for its elders. Reminds me of me!
Part 2:
You wrote:
Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.
Jerky response:
I don't believe in the "returning Messiah/Savior" thing, and the Qur'an never mentions it. Plus, its not even Judgment Day apparently, and nothing seemed to happen, ever since the time of Jesus, who people have been waiting for also for a long time.
You wrote:
Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.
With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.
https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jerky response:
I don't think he even seemed to know too much about the other world religions, I probably know more about them because I read about them.
You wrote:
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106 "
Jerky Response:
I've heard that his laws are even harsher than those found in the Qur'an, and did he know that he was going to be executed and that the future of his movement would not seem to achieve much overall in the next hundred years or however long it has been? It seemed that the prior religions at least spread a lot more somehow and had a lot more success overall.
You wrote:
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
Jerky Response:
It seems though that his legacy is that he announced himself after the Bab could not reject him thoroughly, and that he was killed by the government or whatever and made laws and rulings harsher than those of the Qur'an before him? The guy who made the Iphone seemed to have more of an impact on humanity overall, now everyone is on their little devices scrolling around, what was the name of the guy made the Iphone? Satan something?
You wrote:
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
Jerky Response:
I'll have to read up on that, because as far as I can tell, he didn't really achieve much overall, and may have gotten a lot of people killed, including himself, for what amounts to a very small movement overall to this day in comparison to those he was supposed to overtake and be the bigger, better, version of.
You wrote:
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night
Jerky Response:
What about all of us who don't even believe in the Bible though or any of their "prophecies" anyway? How did he fulfil them all though? The Second Coming of Jesus Christ was supposed to end IN ANOTHER EXECUTION? THAT IS SO ANNOYING!
You wrote:
The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
Jerky Response:
Lets say he could see into the future, what does that mean? There are lots of psychics and people claiming they have seen into the future, predictions that sometimes appear to be true, are these all big shots for it even? I thought with the second coming of Christ things were supposed to be set straight and Jesus Christ would reign and blah blah, not that he would get killed AGAIN, and make people wait AGAIN. Isn't that just infuriating? Jesus, in whatever form, seems to be cheating us and ripping us off, wasting our time.
You wrote:
Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.
Jerky response:
I don't believe in the "returning Messiah/Savior" thing, and the Qur'an never mentions it. Plus, its not even Judgment Day apparently, and nothing seemed to happen, ever since the time of Jesus, who people have been waiting for also for a long time.
You wrote:
Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.
With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.
https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jerky response:
I don't think he even seemed to know too much about the other world religions, I probably know more about them because I read about them.
You wrote:
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106 "
Jerky Response:
I've heard that his laws are even harsher than those found in the Qur'an, and did he know that he was going to be executed and that the future of his movement would not seem to achieve much overall in the next hundred years or however long it has been? It seemed that the prior religions at least spread a lot more somehow and had a lot more success overall.
You wrote:
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
Jerky Response:
It seems though that his legacy is that he announced himself after the Bab could not reject him thoroughly, and that he was killed by the government or whatever and made laws and rulings harsher than those of the Qur'an before him? The guy who made the Iphone seemed to have more of an impact on humanity overall, now everyone is on their little devices scrolling around, what was the name of the guy made the Iphone? Satan something?
You wrote:
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
Jerky Response:
I'll have to read up on that, because as far as I can tell, he didn't really achieve much overall, and may have gotten a lot of people killed, including himself, for what amounts to a very small movement overall to this day in comparison to those he was supposed to overtake and be the bigger, better, version of.
You wrote:
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night
Jerky Response:
What about all of us who don't even believe in the Bible though or any of their "prophecies" anyway? How did he fulfil them all though? The Second Coming of Jesus Christ was supposed to end IN ANOTHER EXECUTION? THAT IS SO ANNOYING!
You wrote:
The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
Jerky Response:
Lets say he could see into the future, what does that mean? There are lots of psychics and people claiming they have seen into the future, predictions that sometimes appear to be true, are these all big shots for it even? I thought with the second coming of Christ things were supposed to be set straight and Jesus Christ would reign and blah blah, not that he would get killed AGAIN, and make people wait AGAIN. Isn't that just infuriating? Jesus, in whatever form, seems to be cheating us and ripping us off, wasting our time.
You make his words sound delicious and full of Feta Cheese!