Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

Where in my statement do I claim you stated that we should end our lives? Nowhere! Just more of your made up misrepresentations. However, the next sentence is worst. You are suggesting(you will deny later) that, "if we knew about the afterlife we would not be able to bear one more minute in this world". I can't wait to see how you will spend-doctor the meaning of this comment. Never mind.

I never said that you claimed that I stated that. YOU stated that maybe we should end our lives. That is not a misinterpretation of what YOU SAID.

You said: “Now this is truly disturbing, "The afterlife is our real existence... The material world is insignificant by comparison. We are here for only a short time". Maybe we should end it all now, since the material world is so insignificant?Maybe we should hurry-up the process and join the virgins, beyond the land of poison Kool-Aid?”

You have no idea of what our purpose is for being in this world. If so, how do you know? Our existence in this world is to survive long enough to pass-on our genetic information to our offspring. Any other purpose is irrelevant from a survival perspective.

Survival and passing and genes is not the purpose of our existence. The purpose of our existence is to prepare our soul for the afterlife:

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

The purpose for which we were created is to know and love God.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness. Whoso hath recognized the Day Spring of Divine guidance and entered His holy court hath drawn nigh unto God and attained His Presence, a Presence which is the real Paradise, and of which the loftiest mansions of heaven are but a symbol. Such a man hath attained the knowledge of the station of Him Who is “at the distance of two bows,” Who standeth beyond the Sadratu’l-Muntahá. Whoso hath failed to recognize Him will have condemned himself to the misery of remoteness, a remoteness which is naught but utter nothingness and the essence of the nethermost fire. Such will be his fate, though to outward seeming he may occupy the earth’s loftiest seats and be established upon its most exalted throne.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71​

My statement was the that it is the nature of many humans to be greedy and selfish. They are genetically predisposed and physically predisposed with these attributes. My question was how does this relate to the existence of God?

Regarding people being greedy and selfish, I said “That has nothing to do with God.” Therefore, the tendency for many humans to be greedy and selfish does not relate to the existence of God. However, the way to overcome being greedy and selfish is to follow the teachings of the Messenger of God.

 

[joelr]

Maybe in the future more will be revealed about the universe through a divine revelation, but that is not what we need at this time in history. Humans cannot even get along with each other in the world we live in do that has to be remedied before anything else.

Here is the reason we get a divine revelation:

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

There is less conflict now then there ever was. So that doesn't seem to add up.

That statement practically debunks itself - "progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples" exactly, our progress out of the dark ages was through technological advancements and advances in medicine. Everyone already knows about "glory to the most high god who sits on the highest shiny throne and love everyone and manifest love and think happy thoughts". These messengers can teach us medicine to cure cancer and teach us to make food and resources cheaper and teach us science to make our lives better and longer.
A messenger from most high god shows up and all he can do is read pages from Chicken Soup For the Soul??? WTF?

Be nice to each other? That's his message? The same message already embedded in ALL RELIGIONS EVER!? Like this one will suddenly break through and create total world peace when we already have billions and billions of people trying to preach the same message?


It doesn't need to be said but if a real divine messenger came around they would know that something more was obviously needed to get peoples attention. They would have to demonstrate supernatural knowledge of science or have magic powers.
Why do you think people follow Christianity? Because they think the founder could do magic. That's it.
Those quotes sound like every guru on every block in India. Nice enough stuff to say.
It's not supernatural though.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Yet you cannot give me ANY reason why it is not rational. How else do you think God could communicate, with a loudspeaker, writing on the sky? How do you think God could communicate the equivalent of what Baha’u’llah wrote, over 15,000 Tablets, any way other than scriptures?

Do you always change the goal posts when it suits you, or do you argue only from inertia(just to go the distance)? It is clear that you are not a rational or a critical thinker, if you need to resort to this level of intellectual dishonesty. Let's look at some of your desperate misrepresentations, distortions, and denials.

The evidence that supports the belief in the existence of a Messenger and thus a God is everything the surrounds the life and revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His authorized Interpreter wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

This evidence validates a belief in Baha’u’llah, thus it validates a belief in the existence of a Messenger and a God.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

Fine then, you can read a bunch of lies about the Baha’i Faith written by enemies of the Faith, which makes no logical sense at all.

Why would the enemies of the Baha’i Faith present accurate information about the Baha’i Faith? I do not know how much more I can say. The enemies of the new religion have tried to bring it down with calumny.

You are so naïve, to believe the smut posted in the internet. It is so obvious why they post these things. There are no secrets, nothing we have not been told. This is utter calumny. Go ahead, believe it if you want to. I do not care, why should it matter to me? It is not me who will suffer from believing calumny. I know the truth.

Why do you think people go to the trouble to attack the Baha’i Faith? Are we attacking or threatening them? Do we have beliefs that are harmful to humanity? Do you see them attacking any other religions online? No, only true religions are attacked. It has been that way throughout recorded history.

The Baha’i sources do not promote the Baha’i Faith any more than the Bible promotes Christianity. They are just the accurate information about the history of the Faith written by those who were closest to it, those who lived in the nineteenth century and knew Baha’u’llah. After all, it was Baha’is who were closest to Baha’u’llah, and they are the ones who documented the history. How do you think anyone else could know the truth about what happened back then? The Baha’i Faith has not yet been researched by historians and written about so it is not part of academia yet. So what we have is the Baha’i version and the detractor’s version. The Baha’is have NO motive to present inaccurate information about their religion, none at all. We know the Baha’i Faith will reign victorious no matter how many people try to bring it down. The more they attack it the more it will grow, because their attacks cause rational people to look at what the Baha’i Faith really is, according to the Baha’i Faith. Any rational person would know that is how one gets accurate information.

Also, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are what they are. Nobody can ever change them because we have the originals. The detractors have tried to distort the history because they cannot distort the original writings of Baha’u’llah. Some detractors have tried to translate the Writings into English to say the exact opposite of the official translations; that is how desperate they are. But they were caught with their pants down because there are many Baha’is whose native languages are Persian and Arabic so they know what those Writings say in the original language.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The Baha’i Faith has been under attack since its inception and the reason is so obvious... Some men wantedfame, power and control so they wanted to usurp the rightful successors that were appointed by Baha’u’llah. Then there are the Christians who write false histories. Of course they have a motive. Once they realizethatBaha’u’llah claimed to be the return of Christ, they are so threatened by the Baha’i Faith they cannot see straight. There have been many men who claimed to be the return of Christ, but nobody ever paid them any attention. The more the Baha’i Faith comes into the limelight, the more they will attack it and try to bring it down but they will never succeed. The Cause of God will reign victorious.

If you wanted to know what the KKK believes in and teaches its followers you would go straight to the KKK and ask them. That is the only way you are going to get accurate information. If you read anything about the KKK other than from the source, it is going to be biased one way or the other. Who knows better about what the KKK teaches than the members themselves, like duh? They believe in what they are doing so they will be happy to explain it to outsiders. Likkewise, the Baha’is are not trying to hide anything.

There is plenty of evidence. You just don’t like it.

I do not know God’s limits, but God has no limits, but that does not mean God is going to do what you think He should do. God only does what God wants to do because God is All-Powerful. He does not take orders from humans. God is not going to speak directly to each and every human being on earth just because a few atheists don’t like the idea of God using messengers. That is so utterly inane. Also, nobody could EVER understand God if God spoke to them. That is another reason why God uses Messengers, since they have a divine mind that is capable of receiving communication from God. If God wanted to communicate some other way other than Messengers, why has He not done so?

God did not fail; God did His duty when He sent Baha’u’llah. Humanity failed when they did not recognize Baha’u’llah and rejected Him. God did His is not responsible for this in any way.

The 93% believe in God based upon the evidence which are the scriptures of the various religions. The fact that you do not think it is evidence does not change a thing. It is the evidence God provides through His Messengers. Most everyone in the world can understand that except a few atheists who think they are so smart. That is their problem, their ego, and that is what bars them form the truth. God is not going to change His Method of communication to accommodate a few atheists.

You've stated that the only way God could communicate with us, is through a Messenger. This means there is no other way God can communicate with us. If you need proof that this claim is ludicrous, let me help you. God by the nature of His OMNI'S, should be able to do anything. Now Anything also includes being able to communicate with us in an infinite amount of ways. ONE of which is through a Messenger. Are you saying that an entity that can create a Universe and all living things, is now limited on how He can communicate with us? It is silly, absurd, and illogical. If you can't understand this simple train of logic, then you ARE illogical. Also claiming that if God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He, is not only a fallacious but is also irrational.

Again, you are simply parroting and deflecting rote learned dogma. You are simply making inferences about things, not stating the evidence for things. I am not interested in the Baha'u'llah's life, history, character, mission, or anything that he wrote. I am only interested in the evidence(extraordinary) that clearly makes him a Messenger for a God, and not just a man that you believe is a Messenger for a God. What are these revelations and predictions, that can be objectively interpreted as extraordinary?

I've asked you to demonstrate that what others say about the history of your faith is a lie. I even gave you a few examples, that you have so far ignored. You could have clearly demonstrated WHY their facts are untrue. Or, stated that this simply didn't happen and why. Or, that these are not the rules and practices of your faith. You do nothing but deny, insult me for even searching for the truth, and simply dismiss their comments as enemies attacking your faith. Most cults adapt this strategy, as a distraction and to appeal to the Pathos(emotion) of their audience. You are no different. So I'll asked again. What specifically is wrong with any of their claims? This should certainly matter to you, since as you say, you are also a searcher of the truth. Or, maybe you are just the victim of the truth of others? How do you know that only true religions are attacked? Another fallacy.

If you wanted to know what the KKK believes in and teaches its followers you would go straight to the KKK and ask them. That is the only way you are going to get accurate information. If you read anything about the KKK other than from the source, it is going to be biased one way or the other. Who knows better about what the KKK teaches than the members themselves, like duh?

More cultist logic. Conmen just love people like you. So if you want to find the best dining experience, the best movies, the best hire cars, the best product, etc, you simply ignore the reviews, and simply listen to the sources themselves? Gullible is the first word that comes to mind. A true seeker of the truth must first be objective and impartial. You are obviously neither.

There are many reasons why most of the population believe in a God. And, it has very little to do with evidence. Just like a belief in your faith, it has nothing to do with any independent or impartial evidence. There is NO EVIDENCE at all for any atheist to reject or not accept. Writings, experiences, testimonials, unsupported revelations and predictions, convoluted logic, or one fallacy after another, does not constitute objective evidence. No matter how much you try to shame atheists into accepting non-evidence blindly. as you have. Why can't you simply admit that this is simply your belief and nothing more? I am only convinced of things that I can support with evidence. You obviously do not need the evidence to support your claims. Especially if it is irrelevant if I accept it or not. We are certainly different.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am not trying to justify my belief. I am not trying to defend anything. I do not have to justify or defend anything to anyone. That is not my job. I already know what I believe. I am just responding to posts, but I am getting tired of your insults, be they direct or indirect. Do you even realize that this constant criticism is disrespectful, or maybe you do not care? It does not bother me because I know I am not doing the things you say and I am not the person you are trying to define. I am just pointing out that most everything you say is a barrage of criticism, and it is always negative.

I do not need your psychoanalysis. I have an MA in Counseling Psychology and I was a client in counseling for over 15 years. I know myself only too well. People who try to define other people instead of looking at themselves have serious problems. They are deflecting and projecting their own uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. They criticize others only do so to make themselves look smarter, and to feel superior to others. This is psych 101 stuff.

You are projecting what you do onto me. If I mention the same cues again, you will respond in the same way again. Ever noticed how you keep repeating yourself and saying the same things over and over again, or can you only see that in other people? You do not even try to understand where I am coming from, you just keep criticizing and labeling, over and over again. You do not listen to anything I say or try to understand it. You just criticize it. This is not a problem I have with anyone else so it cannot be because of the way I communicate. I just respond to what you say. How do you expect me to respond when you robotically keep saying the same things over and over again? I am finally saying something different, but will you respond to that or will you just keep repeating what you said before? Maybe you are not even aware you are doing this, I don’t know.

Believe whatever you want to. It is no skin off my nose or off God’s nose. Nobody needs your belief. You say things are irrational but you really cannot give a REASON why they are irrational. Just because they do not make sense to YOU does not mean they are irrational.

I do know that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Will of God. Exactly how I know is not something you can understand. I do not know God’s limitations but that is a moot point because God has never communicated to humanity any way other than His Messengers. There is no reason to think God is suddenly change His Method of communication.

I am about done putting up with your derogatory labels and analyses. I am not a cultist and I do not have cognitive dissonance. Who do you think you are to label and define me? Nobody else but me would have put up with this as long as I have. It is so rude and disrespectful to define other people. Why don’t you look at yourself and speak for yourself instead of for me? What is your motive for looking at me and telling me how it is for me?

In general, the reason people label people and call them irrational and other derogatory things is to raise themselves up so they can feel superior.In your mind I have to be a cultist because otherwise I might actually have a legitimate religion. In your mind the only way I would believe what I do is if I had cognitive dissonance, but I do not have it. I have reasons for my beliefs that you do not understand. Why can’t you just leave it at that? If you really wanted to know you could ask and I could explain it, but that would just lead to more criticism because you won’t accept that I am a different person from you, a separate person with my own life history and reasons for believing, my own thought processes.

I have been going this same road with atheists on several forums for six years so I know the drill like the back of my hand, only I finally stopped putting up with it. Eventually several atheists stopped attacking me and my beliefs and we are now friends. They know I am not trying to convince them of anything and they can talk to me anytime they want to. I would never define any other person as anything. That is disrespectful. Just because people can get away withit as an anonymous person on a forum does not make it right.

You just don’t quit do you? You just keep repeating the same things over and over again. Impartial and critical thinking is not impossible for me at all just because I have certain beliefs you think are unrealistic. Everything I believe makes perfect rational sense, but you think from a completely different perspective so you will never view it that way. Why not just agree to disagree?

You twist everything to make it look negative – imaginary new world order, dead revolutionist.

I do not care if you think it is unusual for me to tell people they have to do their own independent investigation. It makes sense that everyone does their own independent investigation so they will know for themselves, rather than getting information second hand. If I explained what it means to me that would just be my interpretation.

Me feeding you evidence makes NO sense at all. I do not care what you are used to. That is not the way the Baha’i Faith is learned. I have told you what the evidence is and all those categories of evidence can be researched.

The Baha’i Faith is the only religion that makes any sense at all. Everything fits together perfectly and it addresses individual spiritual needs and the needs of humanity as a whole. It is so all-encompassing I do not even understand it all.

I'm afraid my tertiary qualifications are not in the Behavioral Sciences, or in the Humanities. In ether case it is irrelevant. Our discourse is about the evidence for one aspect of your belief. That is, that a Messenger for a God exists. This has nothing to do with your vocation. And everything thing to do with your cognitive processes. Do you even understand we you twist, distorts, and misrepresent the clear meaning of my comments?

I am not trying to justify my belief. I am not trying to defend anything. I do not have to justify or defend anything to anyone. That is not my job. I already know what I believe. I am just responding to posts, but I am getting tired of your insults, be they direct or indirect. Do you even realize that this constant criticism is disrespectful, or maybe you do not care? It does not bother me because I know I am not doing the things you say and I am not the person you are trying to define. I am just pointing out that most everything you say is a barrage of criticism, and it is always negative.

I do not need your psychoanalysis. I have an MA in Counseling Psychology and I was a client in counseling for over 15 years. I know myself only too well. People who try to define other people instead of looking at themselves have serious problems. They are deflecting and projecting their own uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. They criticize others only do so to make themselves look smarter, and to feel superior to others. This is psych 101 stuff.

You are projecting what you do onto me. If I mention the same cues again, you will respond in the same way again. Ever noticed how you keep repeating yourself and saying the same things over and over again, or can you only see that in other people? You do not even try to understand where I am coming from, you just keep criticizing and labeling, over and over again. You do not listen to anything I say or try to understand it. You just criticize it. This is not a problem I have with anyone else so it cannot be because of the way I communicate. I just respond to what you say. How do you expect me to respond when you robotically keep saying the same things over and over again? I am finally saying something different, but will you respond to that or will you just keep repeating what you said before? Maybe you are not even aware you are doing this, I don’t know.

Believe whatever you want to. It is no skin off my nose or off God’s nose. Nobody needs your belief. You say things are irrational but you really cannot give a REASON why they are irrational. Just because they do not make sense to YOU does not mean they are irrational.

I do know that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Will of God. Exactly how I know is not something you can understand. I do not know God’s limitations but that is a moot point because God has never communicated to humanity any way other than His Messengers. There is no reason to think God is suddenly change His Method of communication.

I am about done putting up with your derogatory labels and analyses. I am not a cultist and I do not have cognitive dissonance. Who do you think you are to label and define me? Nobody else but me would have put up with this as long as I have. It is so rude and disrespectful to define other people. Why don’t you look at yourself and speak for yourself instead of for me? What is your motive for looking at me and telling me how it is for me?

In general, the reason people label people and call them irrational and other derogatory things is to raise themselves up so they can feel superior.In your mind I have to be a cultist because otherwise I might actually have a legitimate religion. In your mind the only way I would believe what I do is if I had cognitive dissonance, but I do not have it. I have reasons for my beliefs that you do not understand. Why can’t you just leave it at that? If you really wanted to know you could ask and I could explain it, but that would just lead to more criticism because you won’t accept that I am a different person from you, a separate person with my own life history and reasons for believing, my own thought processes.

I have been going this same road with atheists on several forums for six years so I know the drill like the back of my hand, only I finally stopped putting up with it. Eventually several atheists stopped attacking me and my beliefs and we are now friends. They know I am not trying to convince them of anything and they can talk to me anytime they want to. I would never define any other person as anything. That is disrespectful. Just because people can get away withit as an anonymous person on a forum does not make it right.

You just don’t quit do you? You just keep repeating the same things over and over again. Impartial and critical thinking is not impossible for me at all just because I have certain beliefs you think are unrealistic. Everything I believe makes perfect rational sense, but you think from a completely different perspective so you will never view it that way. Why not just agree to disagree?

You twist everything to make it look negative – imaginary new world order, dead revolutionist.

I do not care if you think it is unusual for me to tell people they have to do their own independent investigation. It makes sense that everyone does their own independent investigation so they will know for themselves, rather than getting information second hand. If I explained what it means to me that would just be my interpretation.

Me feeding you evidence makes NO sense at all. I do not care what you are used to. That is not the way the Baha’i Faith is learned. I have told you what the evidence is and all those categories of evidence can be researched.

The Baha’i Faith is the only religion that makes any sense at all. Everything fits together perfectly and it addresses individual spiritual needs and the needs of humanity as a whole. It is so all-encompassing I do not even understand it all.

I do apologize if I have been directly disrespectful and insulting. It was certainly unintentional. But re-reading my posts I can understand the distraction and the frustration. I think you are right that we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is less conflict now then there ever was. So that doesn't seem to add up.

But humans are still not living in harmony and unity. There is still a lot of prejudice, religious and racial, and there are still wars and threats of wars.

That statement practically debunks itself - "progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples" exactly, our progress out of the dark ages was through technological advancements and advances in medicine. Everyone already knows about "glory to the most high god who sits on the highest shiny throne and love everyone and manifest love and think happy thoughts". These messengers can teach us medicine to
cure cancer and teach us to make food and resources cheaper and teach us science to make our lives better and longer.

"progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples"refers to spiritual progress, not material progress. It refers to moral progress, social and political change, not scientific progress and cures for diseases.

It is not the mission of the Messengers to teach us medicine or how to make food and resources cheaper or teach us science so we can live better and longer. That is the job for scientists. The Messengers come to educate humanity as to how they can live a moral life and improve their character, how they can get live in harmony and unity with other people, how they can come to know and love God, all in preparation for the afterlife.

A messenger from most high god shows up and all he can do is read pages from Chicken Soup For the Soul??? WTF?

Be nice to each other? That's his message? The same message already embedded in ALL RELIGIONS EVER!? Like this one will suddenly break through and create total world peace when we already have billions and billions of people trying to preach the same message?

Obviously, there is a lot you do not know about the Baha’i Faith, those were just a couple of passages. Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. There is a lot more in them than just be nice to each other. That was the basic message of Jesus, but Baha’u’llah came with a new message or justice and equity for all, elimination of prejudice and many other teachings. He also gave us the blueprint instructions to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

It doesn't need to be said but if a real divine messenger came around they would know that something more was obviously needed to get peoples attention. They would have to demonstrate supernatural knowledge of science or have magic powers.

That is not a good reason to believe in a Messenger of God. A Messenger should be recognized by the way He led His life, His character, His mission, His teachings, and the religion He established.

Why do you think people follow Christianity? Because they think the founder could do magic. That's it.

Those quotes sound like every guru on every block in India. Nice enough stuff to say.
It's not supernatural though.

That is a stupid reason to follow Jesus, because of His miracles. The real miracle is that Jesus was superior to all others and that solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, even though He was crucified.

Baha’u’llah also did miracles but He wanted to keep them a secret so people would not believe because of them.

We know that Baha’u’llah did not have more than a rudimentary education so there is no explanation as to where He acquired the knowledge that He had.Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Thirty things he predicted are listed and explained in this book: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

You've stated that the only way God could communicate with us, is through a Messenger. This means there is no other way God can communicate with us. If you need proof that this claim is ludicrous, let me help you. God by the nature of His OMNI'S, should be able to do anything. Now Anything also includes being able to communicate with us in an infinite amount of ways. ONE of which is through a Messenger. Are you saying that an entity that can create a Universe and all living things, is now limited on how He can communicate with us? It is silly, absurd, and illogical. If you can't understand this simple train of logic, then you ARE illogical. Also claiming that if God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He, is not only a fallacious but is also irrational.

I NEVER SAID that God could only communicate through a Messenger. All I ever said is that the ONLY WAY that God has ever communicated is through a Messenger. God can do anything because God is omnipotent, but that does not mean that God is going to do everything He can do. And it CERTAINLY does not mean that God is going to do what humans want Him to do. God ONLY does what God wants to do, period.

If God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He? That is neither fallacious nor irrational. It is a legitimate question to ask.

To say that God could figure out “another way” to communicate is a moot point unless you can think of another way that God could communicate 15,000 Tablets to humanity so that all of humanity could receive and read them.

Again, you are simply parroting and deflecting rote learned dogma. You are simply making inferences about things, not stating the evidence for things. I am not interested in the Baha'u'llah's life, history, character, mission, or anything that he wrote. I am only interested in the evidence(extraordinary) that clearly makes him a Messenger for a God, and not just a man that you believe is a Messenger for a God. What are these revelations and predictions, that can be objectively interpreted as extraordinary?

I am not parroting any dogma. What I determined was evidence is COMPLETELY my own idea. Everything Baha’u’llah did and wrote is extraordinary to me. He made some predictions that came true and that is objective evidence.Thirty things he predicted are listed and explained in this book: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

I've asked you to demonstrate that what others say about the history of your faith is a lie. I even gave you a few examples, that you have so far ignored. You could have clearly demonstrated WHY their facts are untrue. Or, stated that this simply didn't happen and why.

Logically speaking, if what some people say about the history of the Faith is in direct opposition to what I know is the real history of the Faith, then I know they are wrong. This is logic, since they cannot both be right if they contradict each other. If I was going to look at the other versions of history, I would want to see the sources they cited.

So I'll asked again. What specifically is wrong with any of their claims? This should certainly matter to you, since as you say, you are also a searcher of the truth. Or, maybe you are just the victim of the truth of others? How do you know that only true religions are attacked? Another fallacy.

Repeat another claim they have made and I will tell you why they are wrong.

I know that all true Messengers and all true religions have been attacked because history demonstrates that true Messengers and all true religions have been attacked.

“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.

This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.

In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.

In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!

In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.

In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.

Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.

Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.”
Paris Talks, pp. 102-103​

Back when Christianity and Islam were new religions, they were virulently attacked. Today these religions are the two religions that have the most followers worldwide, Christianity with 33% and Islam with 22% of the world population. The reason they were attacked is because they were real religions and those of the previous religions did not want a new religion that superseded their older religion. It has always been this way and that why the Baha’i Faith is attacked by Christians and to a lesser degree Jews and Muslims.

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light!

Regard the former times. Had the calumnies of Pharaoh any effect? He affirmed that Moses was a murderer, that he had slain a man and deserved to be executed! He also declared that Moses and Aaron were fomenters of discord, that they tried to destroy the religion of Egypt and therefore must be put to death. These words of Pharaoh were vainly spoken. The light of Moses shone. The radiance of the Law of God has encircled the world!

When the Pharisees said of Christ that He had broken the Sabbath Day, that He had defied the Law of Moses, that He had threatened to destroy the Temple and the Holy City of Jerusalem, and that He deserved to be crucified—We know that all these slanderous attacks had no result in hindering the spread of the Gospel!

The Sun of Christ shone brilliantly in the sky, and the breath of the Holy Spirit wafted over the whole earth!

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.”
Paris Talks, pp. 105-106​

There are many reasons why most of the population believe in a God. And, it has very little to do with evidence. Just like a belief in your faith, it has nothing to do with any independent or impartial evidence. There is NO EVIDENCE at all for any atheist to reject or not accept. Writings, experiences, testimonials, unsupported revelations and predictions, convoluted logic, or one fallacy after another, does not constitute objective evidence.

There is no independent impartial evidence of God. Revelations of God through Messengers IS the ONLY evidence because that is what God provides. Please refer to the three quotes above if you want to know what you are not going to get anything except what God wants to give you. It is God 101 stuff and logic 101 stuff because and omnipotent God only does what it WANTS TO DO.

No matter how much you try to shame atheists into accepting non-evidence blindly. as you have.

I have never tried to shame atheists into accepting ANYTHING. They ask me questions and I answer them, and I always say that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

There is nothing blind about my faith because I have evidence, the fact that YOU and your atheist ilk do not consider Messengers as evidence notwithstanding.

Why can't you simply admit that this is simply your belief and nothing more? I am only convinced of things that I can support with evidence. You obviously do not need the evidence to support your claims. Especially if it is irrelevant if I accept it or not. We are certainly different.

It is belief based upon evidence and reason put together so it is a reason-based belief.

No, I do not need the kind of evidence you need because I am not you. I realize that there can NEVER be objective evidence of an immaterial God who is exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived, but there is objective evidence of Baha’u’llah and that is good enough for me.

If I had objective evidence for God I would know it is not the real God but rather an imaginary god. There can NEVER be objective evidence for God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm afraid my tertiary qualifications are not in the Behavioral Sciences, or in the Humanities. In either case it is irrelevant. Our discourse is about the evidence for one aspect of your belief. That is, that a Messenger for a God exists. This has nothing to do with your vocation. And everything thing to do with your cognitive processes. Do you even understand we you twist, distorts, and misrepresent the clear meaning of my comments?

Yes, I would appreciate it if we could stick with the topic at hand; that is, if a Messenger for a God exists, rather going into personal psych assessments.

I do not understand how my answering what you say according to what I thought you were asking or referring to is twisting, distorting, or misrepresent the clear meaning of YOUR comments, but if you could give me an example of what you mean I am willing to look at it. Sometimes my husband does not understand me and vice versa because we are normally on two different channels, since I think and communicate very differently than he does. Our wires are always crossed but we do not do this deliberately, it is just that we communicate so differently.This involves both of us, so it is not just one person’s fault.

I do apologize if I have been directly disrespectful and insulting. It was certainly unintentional. But re-reading my posts I can understand the distraction and the frustration. I think you are right that we should just agree to disagree.

Thanks. I really appreciate that. I did not think it was intentional since you do not strike me as that kind of person. You seem to be a sincere person but you like me have some strong convictions and since they are opposite sides of the pole that is why we knock heads.

I am sorry if I sounded evasive on certain subjects. I did not mean to be.If there are any questions I can answer I am always happy to answer them to the best of my ability. I am very proficient in certain subjects related to the Baha’i Faith but I am not as proficient in other subject areas.

 

[joelr]

But humans are still not living in harmony and unity. There is still a lot of prejudice, religious and racial, and there are still wars and threats of wars.

"progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples"refers to spiritual progress, not material progress. It refers to moral progress, social and political change, not scientific progress and cures for diseases.

In that case he's teaching vague spiritual concepts that the Vedic teachings were dealing with 3000 years ago. So he's a guru someone mistook for a messenger from a god.
Actually if we could master medicine and cheap sources of power and cloning food and all sorts of biological science at a cheap cost the basic needs of everyone could be met and we could work on spirituality.

It is not the mission of the Messengers to teach us medicine or how to make food and resources cheaper or teach us science so we can live better and longer. That is the job for scientists. The Messengers come to educate humanity as to how they can live a moral life and improve their character, how they can get live in harmony and unity with other people, how they can come to know and love God, all in preparation for the afterlife.

Until a "messenger" comes who actually shows him or herself to be a supernatural person then it isn't going to catch on. Superior intellect would be a start. So far the fluff that I've heard cannot possibly be other-worldly. Why would a messenger be sent from a GOD who can only speak as well as an average guru? That makes no sense?
The messenger for starters would speak every language easily. He would have deep scientific knowledge and would give us some pointers. He would have many amazing things to say. Probably should be psychic, but real psychic not "you're going to meet someone who will change your life in the next 2 years" psychic.
Like, tell me what I'm thinking psychic.
Why would a god waste the time with a messenger who acted exactly like a human.
Nope.

Obviously, there is a lot you do not know about the Baha’i Faith, those were just a couple of passages. Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. There is a lot more in them than just be nice to each other. That was the basic message of Jesus, but Baha’u’llah came with a new message or justice and equity for all, elimination of prejudice and many other teachings. He also gave us the blueprint instructions to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

Justice and equity for all? So Jesus plus the Constitution? Greeks did that 2000 years ago.
It's true I don't know many passages. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing. Had the first posts impressed me I would have continued reading.
That's another reason they would need to be supernatural, every writing would be so amazing that once you started you would need to continue reading.
Do we really need another Conversations with God? Conversations with God - Wikipedia

and if CWGod didn't change the world why would anything similar?????

That is not a good reason to believe in a Messenger of God. A Messenger should be recognized by the way He led His life, His character, His mission, His teachings, and the religion He established.

Unless a messenger from god can do supernatural, super power, or something better than plain old human, he's just a nice, smart man.

That is a stupid reason to follow Jesus, because of His miracles. The real miracle is that Jesus was superior to all others and that solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, even though He was crucified.

All Christians follow Jesus because of his miracles, mainly the resurrection. Without that Christianity would fall apart.
The literature is good, being refined through several other savior demigod mythologies and then they had to sift through all of the different sects, Agnostics, Adoptionist and so on and create a narrative that covered a vast amount of topics. And incorporate Judaism.
The Council of Nicea took over a year to put the modern version together.

Baha’u’llah also did miracles but He wanted to keep them a secret so people would not believe because of them.

We know that Baha’u’llah did not have more than a rudimentary education so there is no explanation as to where He acquired the knowledge that He had.Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Thirty things he predicted are listed and explained in this book: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

I know the trope. Every savior demigod does miracles, was uneducated and put forth predictions.
I'm sure predictions were added after the fact, doctored in some way, miracles never happen and who ever the writers were they were highly educated and understood many literary devices.

 

[Trailblazer]

at a cheap cost the basic needs of everyone could be met and we could work on spirituality.In that case he's teaching vague spiritual concepts that the Vedic teachings were dealing with 3000 years ago. So he's a guru someone mistook for a messenger from a god.
Actually if we could master medicine and cheap sources of power and cloning food and all sorts of biological science.

No, Baha’u’llah’s teachings are not anything like Vedic. Aside from His spiritual teachings, he also has practical teachings that instruct humanity on how they will attain economic equality. But humanity has to become more spiritual before they are going to be willing to sacrifice what they want for the needs of others and care about the greater good, not just self. SO these teachings go hand in hand.

Until a "messenger" comes who actually shows him or herself to be a supernatural person then it isn't going to catch on. Superior intellect would be a start. So far the fluff that I've heard cannot possibly be other-worldly. Why would a messenger be sent from a GOD who can only speak as well as an average guru? That makes no sense?

He acts like an ordinary human so people will be challenged to recognize Him in his human station, eating and drinking and doing things like everyone else. It is a spiritual test. But He is not a guru, He speaks for God. That can be seen by His life, His Mission, and Writings.

The messenger for starters would speak every language easily. He would have deep scientific knowledge and would give us some pointers. He would have many amazing things to say. Probably should be psychic, but real psychic not "you're going to meet someone who will change your life in the next 2 years" psychic.
Like, tell me what I'm thinking psychic.
Why would a god waste the time with a messenger who acted exactly like a human.
Nope.

How do you think you can know what a Messenger of God would do? What you are stating is what you think he should do, what you want Him to do, but that is not how it worked. Messengers of God have never appeared the way you describe, they have just looked ordinary, until they declared their mission and then it becomes more obvious that they are not ordinary men. They do have a lot of knowledge they never reveal because they only reveal what we need to hear and what we are able to understand. Baha’u’llah revealed some scientific truths before science had discovered them... for example:

“Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the nature of the celestial spheres. To comprehend their nature, it would be necessary to inquire into the meaning of the allusions that have been made in the Books of old to the celestial spheres and the heavens, and to discover the character of their relationship to this physical world, and the influence which they exert upon it. Every heart is filled with wonder at so bewildering a theme, and every mind is perplexed by its mystery. God, alone, can fathom its import. The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the life of this earth, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men. Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 162-163​

Justice and equity for all? So Jesus plus the Constitution? Greeks did that 2000 years ago.
It's true I don't know many passages. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing. Had the first posts impressed me I would have continued reading.
That's another reason they would need to be supernatural, every writing would be so amazing that once you started you would need to continue reading.

That is just not how it works. The Writings o9f Baha’u’llah will indeed seem supernatural to a numbered few people, but not to everyone, because we all perceive things differently.

Do we really need another Conversations with God? Conversations with God - Wikipedia

and if CWGod didn't change the world why would anything similar?????

CwG's basic messages
In Friendship with God, Walsch writes that God presents four concepts which are central to the entire dialogue:

1. We are all one.
2. There's enough.
3. There's nothing we have to do.
4. Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way.
5. God is a collective, that is, there are many Gods and Goddesses who have been delegated some work each, respectively.

The only one of those that is true is #1. Humanity is all one people who are interconnected so what hurts one hurts all.

Unless a messenger from god can do supernatural, super power, or something better than plain old human, he's just a nice, smart man.

He can do it, but he is not going to do it like a stunt man. He wants people to discover who He is by using their own innate intelligence, he does not want to be obvious because that would be too easy.

All Christians follow Jesus because of his miracles, mainly the resurrection. Without that Christianity would fall apart.
The literature is good, being refined through several other savior demigod mythologies and then they had to sift through all of the different sects, Agnostics, Adoptionist and so on and create a narrative that covered a vast amount of topics. And incorporate Judaism.
The Council of Nicea took over a year to put the modern version together.

You are probably right, many people believe in Christianity because of the bodily resurrection and they make a big deal out of it as if it elevates Christianity over all other religions, but Jesus never rose bodily, those were just stories just like a lot of the Bible.

I know the trope. Every savior demigod does miracles, was uneducated and put forth predictions.
I'm sure predictions were added after the fact, doctored in some way, miracles never happen and who ever the writers were they were highly educated and understood many literary devices.

The predictions were made before anyone could have known they would happen. It is all in the book.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I NEVER SAID that God could only communicate through a Messenger. All I ever said is that the ONLY WAY that God has ever communicated is through a Messenger. God can do anything because God is omnipotent, but that does not mean that God is going to do everything He can do. And it CERTAINLY does not mean that God is going to do what humans want Him to do. God ONLY does what God wants to do, period.

If God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He? That is neither fallacious nor irrational. It is a legitimate question to ask.

To say that God could figure out “another way” to communicate is a moot point unless you can think of another way that God could communicate 15,000 Tablets to humanity so that all of humanity could receive and read them.

I am not parroting any dogma. What I determined was evidence is COMPLETELY my own idea. Everything Baha’u’llah did and wrote is extraordinary to me. He made some predictions that came true and that is objective evidence.Thirty things he predicted are listed and explained in this book: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Logically speaking, if what some people say about the history of the Faith is in direct opposition to what I know is the real history of the Faith, then I know they are wrong. This is logic, since they cannot both be right if they contradict each other. If I was going to look at the other versions of history, I would want to see the sources they cited.

Repeat another claim they have made and I will tell you why they are wrong.

I know that all true Messengers and all true religions have been attacked because history demonstrates that true Messengers and all true religions have been attacked.

“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.

This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.

In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.

In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!

In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.

In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.

Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.

Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.”
Paris Talks, pp. 102-103​

Back when Christianity and Islam were new religions, they were virulently attacked. Today these religions are the two religions that have the most followers worldwide, Christianity with 33% and Islam with 22% of the world population. The reason they were attacked is because they were real religions and those of the previous religions did not want a new religion that superseded their older religion. It has always been this way and that why the Baha’i Faith is attacked by Christians and to a lesser degree Jews and Muslims.

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light!

Regard the former times. Had the calumnies of Pharaoh any effect? He affirmed that Moses was a murderer, that he had slain a man and deserved to be executed! He also declared that Moses and Aaron were fomenters of discord, that they tried to destroy the religion of Egypt and therefore must be put to death. These words of Pharaoh were vainly spoken. The light of Moses shone. The radiance of the Law of God has encircled the world!

When the Pharisees said of Christ that He had broken the Sabbath Day, that He had defied the Law of Moses, that He had threatened to destroy the Temple and the Holy City of Jerusalem, and that He deserved to be crucified—We know that all these slanderous attacks had no result in hindering the spread of the Gospel!

The Sun of Christ shone brilliantly in the sky, and the breath of the Holy Spirit wafted over the whole earth!

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.”
Paris Talks, pp. 105-106​

There is no independent impartial evidence of God. Revelations of God through Messengers IS the ONLY evidence because that is what God provides. Please refer to the three quotes above if you want to know what you are not going to get anything except what God wants to give you. It is God 101 stuff and logic 101 stuff because and omnipotent God only does what it WANTS TO DO.

I have never tried to shame atheists into accepting ANYTHING. They ask me questions and I answer them, and I always say that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

There is nothing blind about my faith because I have evidence, the fact that YOU and your atheist ilk do not consider Messengers as evidence notwithstanding.

It is belief based upon evidence and reason put together so it is a reason-based belief.

No, I do not need the kind of evidence you need because I am not you. I realize that there can NEVER be objective evidence of an immaterial God who is exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived, but there is objective evidence of Baha’u’llah and that is good enough for me.

If I had objective evidence for God I would know it is not the real God but rather an imaginary god. There can NEVER be objective evidence for God.

Lets start with, "My mind is not closed because as soon as I get new information I take in that information.", then, "I am not going to accept that I am wrong. You can have your own ideas and I can have mine.", and, "I am not going to change my position.", and , "There is nothing blind about my faith because I have evidence", and "No, I do not need the kind of evidence you need because I am not you", and finally "There is plenty of evidence. You just don’t like it.". Clearly, this is not the mindset of an honest searcher of the truth.

I made the comment that any God, in possession of all the Omni's humans have bestowed upon Him, would be more than capable of communicating with any life on this planet in an infinite number of ways. Who could possibly argue against this truth claim? You responded with, " How else do you think God could communicate, with a loudspeaker, writing on the sky?, "or If God existed, why would God not use a Messenger? If God did not use a Messenger how else could God communicate to humans?", or "All I ever said is that the ONLY WAY that God has ever communicated is through a Messenger.", and, "If God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He?, and "Revelations of God through Messengers IS the ONLY evidence because that is what God provides. Clearly these responses are only meant to imply, infer, or insinuate an answer, not to be evidence of an answer. Since these types of responses only avoids answering the questions or presenting evidence, I see no logical or objective rationale for anyone to conclude that a human Demigod exists, let alone is a Messenger for a God. Since clearly no objective evidence exists to support your beliefs(regardless of your search for truth efforts), it would be pointless to continue.

I also asked you if what the naysayers are saying about Baha'i's religious practices and laws(equality of Women, drugs and alcohol, marriage, fasting and prayer, involvement in politics, gambling, and adherence to the Divine Law), and the Baha'i's religious history(involvement in the Iranian Revolution, links to the Russian and British Governments, the Baha'u'llah being poisoned by his brother, relationship with Unitarians, restrictions on how much followers can read and interpret, succession claims and conflicts, or the Baha'u'llah being a self-proclaimed God, Prophet, Bab, or Messenger). You responded with, " Why would the enemies of the Baha’i Faith present accurate information about the Baha’i Faith? I do not know how much more I can say. The enemies of the new religion have tried to bring it down with calumny.", or "Why do you think people go to the trouble to attack the Baha’i Faith? Are we attacking or threatening them? Do we have beliefs that are harmful to humanity? Do you see them attacking any other religions online? No, only true religions are attacked. It has been that way throughout recorded history.", and " The Baha’i Faith has been under attack since its inception and the reason is so obvious... Some men wanted fame, power and control so they wanted to usurp the rightful successors that were appointed by Baha’u’llah.", and "If you wanted to know what the KKK believes in and teaches its followers you would go straight to the KKK and ask them. That is the only way you are going to get accurate information. If you read anything about the KKK other than from the source, it is going to be biased one way or the other. Who knows better about what the KKK teaches than the members themselves, like duh?". Clearly, the last comment clearly is NOT the way a true seeker of the truth, seeks the truth. In none of your comments do you address any specific accusation to defend. Clearly you will continue to obfuscate, sermonize, and editorialize any specific points or questions that I might raise. So, I won't continue asking.

I will continue my last point in a new post.​

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I NEVER SAID that God could only communicate through a Messenger. All I ever said is that the ONLY WAY that God has ever communicated is through a Messenger. God can do anything because God is omnipotent, but that does not mean that God is going to do everything He can do. And it CERTAINLY does not mean that God is going to do what humans want Him to do. God ONLY does what God wants to do, period.

If God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He? That is neither fallacious nor irrational. It is a legitimate question to ask.

To say that God could figure out “another way” to communicate is a moot point unless you can think of another way that God could communicate 15,000 Tablets to humanity so that all of humanity could receive and read them.

I am not parroting any dogma. What I determined was evidence is COMPLETELY my own idea. Everything Baha’u’llah did and wrote is extraordinary to me. He made some predictions that came true and that is objective evidence.Thirty things he predicted are listed and explained in this book: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Logically speaking, if what some people say about the history of the Faith is in direct opposition to what I know is the real history of the Faith, then I know they are wrong. This is logic, since they cannot both be right if they contradict each other. If I was going to look at the other versions of history, I would want to see the sources they cited.

Repeat another claim they have made and I will tell you why they are wrong.

I know that all true Messengers and all true religions have been attacked because history demonstrates that true Messengers and all true religions have been attacked.

“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.

This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.

In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.

In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!

In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.

In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.

Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.

Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.”
Paris Talks, pp. 102-103​

Back when Christianity and Islam were new religions, they were virulently attacked. Today these religions are the two religions that have the most followers worldwide, Christianity with 33% and Islam with 22% of the world population. The reason they were attacked is because they were real religions and those of the previous religions did not want a new religion that superseded their older religion. It has always been this way and that why the Baha’i Faith is attacked by Christians and to a lesser degree Jews and Muslims.

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light!

Regard the former times. Had the calumnies of Pharaoh any effect? He affirmed that Moses was a murderer, that he had slain a man and deserved to be executed! He also declared that Moses and Aaron were fomenters of discord, that they tried to destroy the religion of Egypt and therefore must be put to death. These words of Pharaoh were vainly spoken. The light of Moses shone. The radiance of the Law of God has encircled the world!

When the Pharisees said of Christ that He had broken the Sabbath Day, that He had defied the Law of Moses, that He had threatened to destroy the Temple and the Holy City of Jerusalem, and that He deserved to be crucified—We know that all these slanderous attacks had no result in hindering the spread of the Gospel!

The Sun of Christ shone brilliantly in the sky, and the breath of the Holy Spirit wafted over the whole earth!

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.”
Paris Talks, pp. 105-106​

There is no independent impartial evidence of God. Revelations of God through Messengers IS the ONLY evidence because that is what God provides. Please refer to the three quotes above if you want to know what you are not going to get anything except what God wants to give you. It is God 101 stuff and logic 101 stuff because and omnipotent God only does what it WANTS TO DO.

I have never tried to shame atheists into accepting ANYTHING. They ask me questions and I answer them, and I always say that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

There is nothing blind about my faith because I have evidence, the fact that YOU and your atheist ilk do not consider Messengers as evidence notwithstanding.

It is belief based upon evidence and reason put together so it is a reason-based belief.

No, I do not need the kind of evidence you need because I am not you. I realize that there can NEVER be objective evidence of an immaterial God who is exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived, but there is objective evidence of Baha’u’llah and that is good enough for me.

If I had objective evidence for God I would know it is not the real God but rather an imaginary god. There can NEVER be objective evidence for God.

The last point I raised was that the tenets, and essence of your faith is very similar to other faiths. The names and characters may have changed, but the faith itself is still essentially only a composite of other beliefs. Unless you can point to any idea, belief, or tenant that is only unique to your faith?. Not the difference in their specifics(days of fasting, names of prophets, types of afterlife, differences in religiosity, etc.), but in their entire conception. Maybe, as a searcher of the truth you might want to look again at the history of the person you've chosen to follow? The Bab: An objective analysis – The Bahai Truth , The Babi and Baha’i fight clubs – The Bahai Truth . All religions are different from each other, but all religions share many of the same aspects(prophets, manifestations, holy book and scriptures, afterlife, and Omnipotence).Yours is no exceptions. I chose to present evidence supporting my belief that your faith is similar in many respects to other religions. I listed many of the similarities, and pointed out the minor differences. I've also provided sites for your verification. You could either accept or reject them, and give your reasons. But you simply just ignored them. Since you have already admitted that no scientific, or impartial evidence exists for the existence of a God or a Messenger, I conclude that there is no rational reason to be convinced that either exists. Therefore it is irrational to believe or follow anything that does not exist. I am not trying to sound superior or judgemental, I am merely stating what I consider is a rational point of view, or perspective.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lets start with, "My mind is not closed because as soon as I get new information I take in that information.", then, "I am not going to accept that I am wrong. You can have your own ideas and I can have mine.", and, "I am not going to change my position.", and , "There is nothing blind about my faith because I have evidence", and "No, I do not need the kind of evidence you need because I am not you", and finally "There is plenty of evidence. You just don’t like it.". Clearly, this is not the mindset of an honest searcher of the truth.

I am not going to accept that I am wrong about something I have already determined is true, through my own careful research, but if someone can prove what I believe is wrong I will accept it as wrong.

In other words, I am not going to change my position unless I have a good reason for doing so. If I changed my position every time someone came along with new information I would be changing it every day.

If someone wants to present new information I am willing to look at it, but I am not going to go looking at all the smut that is out on the internet about the Baha’i Faith. All I have to do is glance at it to determine if it contradicts what the “real” Baha’i Faith teaches and then there is no more point reading it. What the Baha’i Faith teaches is in the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi. We have the original writings so anything that contradicts those has to be false. The “real” history of the Baha’i Faith has been well-documented, so anything that contradicts that history has to be false.

I made the comment that any God, in possession of all the Omni's humans have bestowed upon Him, would be more than capable of communicating with any life on this planet in an infinite number of ways. Who could possibly argue against this truth claim? You responded with, " How else do you think God could communicate, with a loudspeaker, writing on the sky?, "or If God existed, why would God not use a Messenger? If God did not use a Messenger how else could God communicate to humans?", or "All I ever said is that the ONLY WAY that God has ever communicated is through a Messenger.", and, "If God could communicate in any other way, then why hasn't He?, and "Revelations of God through Messengers IS the ONLY evidence because that is what God provides. Clearly these responses are only meant to imply, infer, or insinuate an answer, not to be evidence of an answer.

This is the answer that I gave you more than once: An omnipotent God would be capable of communicating in many ways but that does not mean God is going to communicate in any way other than the way God CHOOSES to communicate.

Since these types of responses only avoids answering the questions or presenting evidence, I see no logical or objective rationale for anyone to conclude that a human Demigod exists, let alone is a Messenger for a God. Since clearly no objective evidence exists to support your beliefs(regardless of your search for truth efforts), it would be pointless to continue.

There is objective evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God but there is no proof that He got a message from God. If there was proof, it would be an established fact, not a belief.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

I also asked you if what the naysayers are saying about Baha'i's religious practices and laws(equality of Women, drugs and alcohol, marriage, fasting and prayer, involvement in politics, gambling, and adherence to the Divine Law), and the Baha'i's religious history(involvement in the Iranian Revolution, links to the Russian and British Governments, the Baha'u'llah being poisoned by his brother, relationship with Unitarians, restrictions on how much followers can read and interpret, succession claims and conflicts, or the Baha'u'llah being a self-proclaimed God, Prophet, Bab, or Messenger). You responded with, " Why would the enemies of the Baha’i Faith present accurate information about the Baha’i Faith? I do not know how much more I can say. The enemies of the new religion have tried to bring it down with calumny.", or "Why do you think people go to the trouble to attack the Baha’i Faith? Are we attacking or threatening them? Do we have beliefs that are harmful to humanity? Do you see them attacking any other religions online? No, only true religions are attacked. It has been that way throughout recorded history.", and " The Baha’i Faith has been under attack since its inception and the reason is so obvious... Some men wanted fame, power and control so they wanted to usurp the rightful successors that were appointed by Baha’u’llah.", and "If you wanted to know what the KKK believes in and teaches its followers you would go straight to the KKK and ask them. That is the only way you are going to get accurate information. If you read anything about the KKK other than from the source, it is going to be biased one way or the other. Who knows better about what the KKK teaches than the members themselves, like duh?".

Clearly, the last comment clearly is NOT the way a true seeker of the truth, seeks the truth. In none of your comments do you address any specific accusation to defend. Clearly you will continue to obfuscate, sermonize, and editorialize any specific points or questions that I might raise. So, I won't continue asking.

If you want to know what the KKK really teaches you ask a member of the KKK. That is why journalists interview KKK members, or ex-KKK members on television. Anyone can read commentaries about the KKK and it is likely to be biased because most people do not like the KKK. The same holds true for the Baha’i Faith, mostly because those of older religions see it as competition, so they try to discredit it, hoping they can convince other people it has no merit.

I know what a true seeker is because Baha’u’llah explained that in the Tablet of the True Seeker.

If one wants to know the truth about a religion, they investigate the claims of that religion to determine if they are true. They do not look at what enemies say about that religion because there is no reason enemies would present the truth about that religion.

Does a person who wants to know about Islam go to sources written by Christians?

Does a person who wants to know about Christianity go to sources written by Muslims?

The best source of information for any religion comes from the followers of that religion, not from outside commentaries on that religion.

The truth about a religion comes from the history documented by those who were closest to the religion when history was unfolding. Later, after a religion is older and more established, scholars write about that religion so we can know something about it from an objective standpoint. But it is too early in the history of the Baha’i Faith for there to be any scholarly works.

The truth about the teachings and Laws of that religion come from the scriptures of that religion. Anything else people say about those could be right or wrong, but there is no reason to look at that because it does not represent that religion. It is just opinions people have about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

The last point I raised was that the tenets, and essence of your faith is very similar to other faiths. The names and characters may have changed, but the faith itself is still essentially only a composite of other beliefs. Unless you can point to any idea, belief, or tenant that is only unique to your faith?. Not the difference in their specifics(days of fasting, names of prophets, types of afterlife, differences in religiosity, etc.), but in their entire conception.

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48​

In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why the deity reveals religious Truth in various stages over time. That is called Progressive Revelation.... For example:

Jesus Christ

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity.......​

Muhammad....

The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....​

Baha’u’llah...

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121​

So, what is different about the Baha’i Faith from the other religions is the social teachings and laws and the primary mission (thus the primary message) of Baha’u’llah, the oneness of mankind. This is an entirely new conception that has never existed in past religions.

Maybe, as a searcher of the truth you might want to look again at the history of the person you've chosen to follow? The Bab: An objective analysis – The Bahai Truth , The Babi and Baha’i fight clubs – The Bahai Truth .

The Baha’i Truth, an objective analysis... That is a joke. They prey on people like you who have not looked at the “real” Baha’i Faith as presented by those who know what it is. The conflicts within the Baha’i Faith are no secret among the Baha’is and we do not try to keep them a secret, so these websites that say “what they don’t tell you” are blatant lies.

All the conflicts within the Baha’i Faith well-documented. The difference between that and these websites you find on the internet is that in the “real” Baha’i history the reasons for the conflicts are cited in detail. Websites like this just present the conflicts to make the Baha’i Faith look bad, as if there were no conflicts in the history of Christianity or Islam. The huge difference between the Baha’i Faith and the older religions is that we have well-documented history for people to read if they really want to know what happened and why. The two authoritative texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944).

All religions are different from each other, but all religions share many of the same aspects(prophets, manifestations, holy book and scriptures, afterlife, and Omnipotence). Yours is no exceptions. I chose to present evidence supporting my belief that your faith is similar in many respects to other religions. I listed many of the similarities, and pointed out the minor differences. I've also provided sites for your verification. You could either accept or reject them, and give your reasons. But you simply just ignored them.

The differences between the Baha’i Faith and older religions are not minor. I did not ignore anything. I looked at the websites and determined what they were.

Since you have already admitted that no scientific, or impartial evidence exists for the existence of a God or a Messenger, I conclude that there is no rational reason to be convinced that either exists. Therefore it is irrational to believe or follow anything that does not exist. I am not trying to sound superior or judgemental, I am merely stating what I consider is a rational point of view, or perspective.

I never said or even implied that you should believe in a Messenger or God based upon the evidence I have presented. If what you need is scientific evidence than that is what you need. If that is what you consider a rational point of view that is your perspective. To me it is not rational to expect scientific evidence for a Messenger or for God. The evidence for Baha’u’llah is objective evidence but the interpretation of that evidence is subjective. No two people are going to interpret it the same way because all people are different. Even among Baha’is, what they consider the best evidence for Baha’u’llah will differ.

 

[Shad]

"progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples"refers to spiritual progress, not material progress. It refers to moral progress, social and political change, not scientific progress and cures for diseases.

Moral, social and political changes are often made on the back of material progress itself. These are all linked. By removing material progress you risk producing a spiritual progressive set of people that are too poor to feed themselves or change anything without the good will of other. Others not in that faith. This creates a perception issue in which "spiritual progress" is seen as a failure as it does not produce the goals claimed.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am not going to accept that I am wrong about something I have already determined is true, through my own careful research, but if someone can prove what I believe is wrong I will accept it as wrong.

In other words, I am not going to change my position unless I have a good reason for doing so. If I changed my position every time someone came along with new information I would be changing it every day.

If someone wants to present new information I am willing to look at it, but I am not going to go looking at all the smut that is out on the internet about the Baha’i Faith. All I have to do is glance at it to determine if it contradicts what the “real” Baha’i Faith teaches and then there is no more point reading it. What the Baha’i Faith teaches is in the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi. We have the original writings so anything that contradicts those has to be false. The “real” history of the Baha’i Faith has been well-documented, so anything that contradicts that history has to be false.

This is the answer that I gave you more than once: An omnipotent God would be capable of communicating in many ways but that does not mean God is going to communicate in any way other than the way God CHOOSES to communicate.

There is objective evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God but there is no proof that He got a message from God. If there was proof, it would be an established fact, not a belief.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

If you want to know what the KKK really teaches you ask a member of the KKK. That is why journalists interview KKK members, or ex-KKK members on television. Anyone can read commentaries about the KKK and it is likely to be biased because most people do not like the KKK. The same holds true for the Baha’i Faith, mostly because those of older religions see it as competition, so they try to discredit it, hoping they can convince other people it has no merit.

I know what a true seeker is because Baha’u’llah explained that in the Tablet of the True Seeker.

If one wants to know the truth about a religion, they investigate the claims of that religion to determine if they are true. They do not look at what enemies say about that religion because there is no reason enemies would present the truth about that religion.

Does a person who wants to know about Islam go to sources written by Christians?

Does a person who wants to know about Christianity go to sources written by Muslims?

The best source of information for any religion comes from the followers of that religion, not from outside commentaries on that religion.

The truth about a religion comes from the history documented by those who were closest to the religion when history was unfolding. Later, after a religion is older and more established, scholars write about that religion so we can know something about it from an objective standpoint. But it is too early in the history of the Baha’i Faith for there to be any scholarly works.

The truth about the teachings and Laws of that religion come from the scriptures of that religion. Anything else people say about those could be right or wrong, but there is no reason to look at that because it does not represent that religion. It is just opinions people have about it.

I have made an honest attempt to make many points, in the hopes that you would address them. This is my attempt at seeking out the truth. Again you use my honesty as a platform for more editorializing. I am really trying to be patient and non-judgemental. But no matter what I ask you directly, you simply avoid giving any direct answer. Instead, you deposit more non-answers, editorializing, and obfuscations. If you believe that going only to the KKK for the truth about their claims, well I'm just glad that the FBI doesn't share YOUR understanding of what constitutes acceptable truth. If you really do have evidence to justify your truth, then what evidence outside of the exclusive writings, teachings and religiosity, do you draw this truth from? What outside source do you compare your truth too? I believe that the truth should NOT exclusive, or restricted by any person, group, or idea. It's degree of certainty should be objectively universal from many perspectives. Otherwise, truth could only be determined by the perspective of it's source. This standard of truth can be very dangerous to any society(sociology 101). As I've said before, I'm sure you do look at reviews of products(other than from the manufacturer), before you make a decision to purchase them? You simply cannot make the overgeneralize claim that anything that contradicts what is written in your faith's original documents, is just false. You must at least address the specific claims, including the ones I mentioned. Also claiming that, "I know what a true seeker is because Baha’u’llah explained that in the Tablet of the True Seeker.", is just blind faith in a closed system. It is certainly not representative of someone independently seeking the truth.

Maybe if you would just answer any of my questions, you would see the true nature of your position. In spite of your denial, I don't think that under NO circumstances, and NO amount of evidence, would your mind be open to the possibility that you could be wrong. Avoiding direct answers seems evidence of this. A true truth seeker would never be dissuaded by claims that contradicts the writings of the belief itself. They would simply address those claims directly. Insulating yourself behind the dogma of your tenants is circular, restrictive, self-serving, and biased. Did the younger half-brother of Baha'u'llah's poison him, or not? Is this a lie or the truth? If avoiding the unnecessary truth is included in you search for truth, then you are NOT a true seeker. The issue is not the actions and motives of the naysayers, it is the accuracy of their comments. Why would naysayers risk exposure, if they deposit false claim that can be easily debunked? This seems counter-intuitive to me.

This is the answer that I gave you more than once: An omnipotent God would be capable of communicating in many ways but that does not mean God is going to communicate in any way other than the way God CHOOSES to communicate.

You did give me an answer, except that it contradicts the earlier comments I listed. You clearly stated/implied that using a Messenger was the ONLY way that a God could communicate with humans. Paraphrasing MY comments as your own, do not address this contradiction. Or, are you now saying that a God CAN communicate with humans in an infinite number of ways, and that you BELIEVE using a Messenger is just one of the ways? Since, there is no evidence for the existence of either, both claims are mute. The issue is not the history or the writings of religions, it is the Metaphysical/Supernatural claims by religions. The evidence will speak for itself, it doesn't need your less-than-objective interpretations.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48​

In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why the deity reveals religious Truth in various stages over time. That is called Progressive Revelation.... For example:

Jesus Christ

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity.......​

Muhammad....

The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....​

Baha’u’llah...

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121​

So, what is different about the Baha’i Faith from the other religions is the social teachings and laws and the primary mission (thus the primary message) of Baha’u’llah, the oneness of mankind. This is an entirely new conception that has never existed in past religions.

The Baha’i Truth, an objective analysis... That is a joke. They prey on people like you who have not looked at the “real” Baha’i Faith as presented by those who know what it is. The conflicts within the Baha’i Faith are no secret among the Baha’is and we do not try to keep them a secret, so these websites that say “what they don’t tell you” are blatant lies.

All the conflicts within the Baha’i Faith well-documented. The difference between that and these websites you find on the internet is that in the “real” Baha’i history the reasons for the conflicts are cited in detail. Websites like this just present the conflicts to make the Baha’i Faith look bad, as if there were no conflicts in the history of Christianity or Islam. The huge difference between the Baha’i Faith and the older religions is that we have well-documented history for people to read if they really want to know what happened and why. The two authoritative texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944).

The differences between the Baha’i Faith and older religions are not minor. I did not ignore anything. I looked at the websites and determined what they were.

I never said or even implied that you should believe in a Messenger or God based upon the evidence I have presented. If what you need is scientific evidence than that is what you need. If that is what you consider a rational point of view that is your perspective. To me it is not rational to expect scientific evidence for a Messenger or for God. The evidence for Baha’u’llah is objective evidence but the interpretation of that evidence is subjective. No two people are going to interpret it the same way because all people are different. Even among Baha’is, what they consider the best evidence for Baha’u’llah will differ.

I'm glad the you took to the internet to find the many similarities that your belief shares with other beliefs. I did not claim that the differences were major or minor. But in general, there are much more similarities in their tenants, than there are differences.

The Baha’i Truth, an objective analysis... That is a joke. They prey on people like you who have not looked at the “real” Baha’i Faith as presented by those who know what it is. The conflicts within the Baha’i Faith are no secret among the Baha’is and we do not try to keep them a secret, so these websites that say “what they don’t tell you” are blatant lies.

The issue is not about their motives, it's about their claims. Are you now claiming that the "Independent investigation of Truth", "The Baha'i Insider", "The Interfaith Forum", and the over 5 million other websites, are not privy to the same information that you are? Or, are they just telling blatant lies, for the sake of lying? What specifically are these lies, that you claim are being used to distort, misrepresent, and miscomprehend the truth. Only to infer motive is not a response, it is a distraction.

There are many Catholic, Christian, and Jewish ministries/religions, that also have a mission. There are many faiths that teach, through their own laws and practices, the "oneness" of their belief. Whether it is a world-wide "oneness" belief in Christianity, Islam, Catholicism, or Baha'i, it makes no difference. I believe this is a mute point, since all religions would love their beliefs to become a world-wide belief. Your path to this outcome is not that unique.

I never said or even implied that you should believe in a Messenger or God based upon the evidence I have presented. If what you need is scientific evidence than that is what you need. If that is what you consider a rational point of view that is your perspective. To me it is not rational to expect scientific evidence for a Messenger or for God. The evidence for Baha’u’llah is objective evidence but the interpretation of that evidence is subjective. No two people are going to interpret it the same way because all people are different. Even among Baha’is, what they consider the best evidence for Baha’u’llah will differ.

You are correct that the evidence that I require for extraordinary claims, would at least be falsifiable. I have no reason to falsify YOUR motives, or the motives or your beliefs. I simply don't think they are realistic, practical, or even historical. But they are certainly real. But claiming that it is not rational to expect evidence for any CLAIM that a Messenger and a God exists, is an irrational and counter-intuitive claim. Should we not expect evidence that Santa Clause exists, before an adult makes the claim that he does exists? Of course neither exist. So why make a claim that can't be falsified in the first place?

Quote-mining in-house scriptures have no relevance for me. Quote-mining from the Ferengi Rules of Acquisitions is useless in Business 101. So please can you use another non-in-house source to support any your claims? Also, because two people can't interpret something the same way, doesn't mean that two people at least ONE thing the same way. I suppose you belief in your faith, is the result of the 8 millionth and ONE interpretation. But the existence of a God or Messenger is not based on interpretation, it should be based solely of objective facts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Moral, social and political changes are often made on the back of material progress itself. These are all linked. By removing material progress you risk producing a spiritual progressive set of people that are too poor to feed themselves or change anything without the good will of other. Others not in that faith. This creates a perception issue in which "spiritual progress" is seen as a failure as it does not produce the goals claimed.

The context of that quote was the reason we get a divine revelation, why we need Messengers of God. Here is the full quote:

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

So our spiritual progress is dependent upon the Messengers of God and the light they radiate; stated in more pragmatic terms, their teachings and laws.

That does not preclude material advancement, which is also necessary. Baha’u’llah brought a whole program for material advancement of humanity (social, economic, political) in addition to revealing spiritual truths that help us advance spiritually and prepare us for the afterlife.

The Baha’i Faith stresses the importance of life on earth as well as the life to come. The primary mission of Baha’u’llah was to reveal what we will need to build the Kingdom of God on earth, also referred to as the “New World Order.”

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

 

[Trailblazer]

I have made an honest attempt to make many points, in the hopes that you would address them. This is my attempt at seeking out the truth. Again you use my honesty as a platform for more editorializing. I am really trying to be patient and non-judgemental. But no matter what I ask you directly, you simply avoid giving any direct answer.

I have no idea what you are talking about, editorializing. What direct question did you ask that I did not answer?

Instead, you deposit more non-answers, editorializing, and obfuscations. If you believe that going only to the KKK for the truth about their claims, well I'm just glad that the FBI doesn't share YOUR understanding of what constitutes acceptable truth.

Context is very important. All I meant regarding the KKK is that the way to find out what they believe is to ask them. If one wants to find out what they are actually doing that is a separate matter. One would then need to investigate that with the FBI or some other law enforcement agency.

If you really do have evidence to justify your truth, then what evidence outside of the exclusive writings, teachings and religiosity, do you draw this truth from? What outside source do you compare your truth too?

If you want direct answers I will give you direct answers. I do not look for evidence outside of the Baha’i Faith because that is not where it is to be found. I do not need to compare what the Baha’i Faith teaches to outside sources. However, I would read outside sources if I determined they were objective sources rather than obvious attempts to discredit what the Baha’i Faith really teaches.

I believe that the truth should NOT exclusive, or restricted by any person, group, or idea. It's degree of certainty should be objectively universal from many perspectives.

Sorry, but “degree of certainty should be objectively universal from many perspectives” has never happened with religious truth and it never will because all humans are different so all humans interpret what they read differently.

Otherwise, truth could only be determined by the perspective of it's source.

It can be determined that way. Its source is how we know if it is true or not. We have to read what the religion claims to be and determine if we believe it is true or not. Opinions of other people about a religion carry no weight whatsoever, because they are just opinions. Unless they have objective facts about the religion that can be proven with evidence they are up the creek without a paddle.

You simply cannot make the overgeneralize claim that anything that contradicts what is written in your faith's original documents, is just false.

If what is written in my faith's original documents is true, that means anything that contradicts it is false. This is a logical point.

You must at least address the specific claims, including the ones I mentioned.

There is nothing to address except to say if they are true or false. How I could prove that they are false is by posting the truth for Baha’i sources, but anyone can still say the Baha’i Faith sources are not the truth, so what’s the point? Don’t you understand the problem?

I already know the Baha’i Faith is true, so unless someone can disprove that I have no reason to change my mind. If company #1 that posts information about another company, company #2 it is competing with that is not the best source of information for the company #1. Likewise, you do not read websites written by Muslims or Christians to find out the “truth” about the Baha’i Faith, nor do you go to websites posted by ex-Baha’is who have a bone to pick with the Baha’i Faith. This is logic 101 stuff.

Also claiming that, "I know what a true seeker is because Baha’u’llah explained that in the Tablet of the True Seeker.", is just blind faith in a closed system. It is certainly not representative of someone independently seeking the truth.

There is nothing blind about it. The requirements of a true seeker were delineated by Baha’u’llah. It is just qualities we should have and how we should go about seeking truth. It in no way precludes independent investigation of truth:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.​

Maybe if you would just answer any of my questions, you would see the true nature of your position. In spite of your denial, I don't think that under NO circumstances, and NO amount of evidence, would your mind be open to the possibility that you could be wrong. Avoiding direct answers seems evidence of this.

I have answered all your questions. Show me one question I have not answered. Just because you did not get the answer you wanted does not mean I did not answer the question. I respond to every question posed to me.

I have asked for evidence to prove me wrong and I have gotten no such evidence. Websites posted by those who oppose the Baha’i Faith are not evidence because these are not the real facts about the Baha’i Faith.

A true truth seeker would never be dissuaded by claims that contradicts the writings of the belief itself. They would simply address those claims directly.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi constitute the Baha’i Faith. Many people disagree with them but I have not seen anyone who has disproven them.

I did address them directly. I told you they are lies or half-truths. There is nothing more to say. It is an either/or. If the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi are true, what contradicts them is false. You are free to decide for yourself. There is no reason for me to believe that those that contradict are true because their motives are crystal clear. They seek to discredit the Baha’i Faith for whatever personal reasons they have. Show me some objective sources and I will be happy to look at them.

Did the younger half-brother of Baha'u'llah's poison him, or not? Is this a lie or the truth?

Yes, Mirza Yahya did attempt to kill Baha’u’llah more than once. One was the poisoning attempt. That is explained on this website: Plots and Attempts on the Life of Bahá’u’lláh

If avoiding the unnecessary truth is included in you search for truth, then you are NOT a true seeker.

I do not avoid anything, but that does not believe I am going to believe lies, after I have searched for truth and determined what it is.

The issue is not the actions and motives of the naysayers, it is the accuracy of their comments. Why would naysayers risk exposure, if they deposit false claim that can be easily debunked? This seems counter-intuitive to me.

The issue certainly is the motives of the naysayers. When a crime is committed, the first thing that law enforcement asks is “what was the motive?”

The debunkers know that no Baha’i is going to even bother to address their calumny so they have a free-for-all on the internet. They are no different from con-men. They are just hoping some people will believe their lies rather than investigate the truth for themselves (according to the process delineated in the quotes above).

Or, are you now saying that a God CAN communicate with humans in an infinite number of ways, and that you BELIEVE using a Messenger is just one of the ways?

That is what I have said all along.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm glad the you took to the internet to find the many similarities that your belief shares with other beliefs. I did not claim that the differences were major or minor. But in general, there are much more similarities in their tenants, than there are differences.

Yes that is true, because they all share the same spiritual truths.

The issue is not about their motives, it's about their claims. Are you now claiming that the "Independent investigation of Truth", "The Baha'i Insider", "The Interfaith Forum", and the over 5 million other websites, are not privy to the same information that you are? Or, are they just telling blatant lies, for the sake of lying? What specifically are these lies, that you claim are being used to distort, misrepresent, and miscomprehend the truth. Only to infer motive is not a response, it is a distraction.

They may or may not be privy to the same information Baha’is have, although it is all available for them to read online. But that is not the point. Many of these websites take that information and twist it to make the Baha’i Faith look bad by misrepresenting the facts or presenting half truths that mean nothing without the full context. Sometimes what they post are outright lies. Some of them might be true. I would have to read them and assess on a case-by-case basis.

There are many Catholic, Christian, and Jewish ministries/religions, that also have a mission. There are many faiths that teach, through their own laws and practices, the "oneness" of their belief. Whether it is a world-wide "oneness" belief in Christianity, Islam, Catholicism, or Baha'i, it makes no difference. I believe this is a mute point, since all religions would love their beliefs to become a world-wide belief. Your path to this outcome is not that unique.

I do not think most religions have that as their mission. Jews do not seek to spread their religion and most Christians don’t either. They realize that it is not going to spread much further. Also, Both Jews and Christians are waiting for their Messiah, so they are on hold.

Also, even if Christians want their religion to be the one true religion for everyone, that is not a realistic goal and I will now explain why it is not realistic.

All religions go through stages which can be likened to seasons of the year. The first stage is spring... That can be likened to a spiritual springtime which begins after a religion is originally revealed by God to a Messenger. God is real to man and it is a living Faith. As time goes on religion goes into its summer season, the peak of its influence; but then it goes into a season of late summer and early fall. During these seasons, theology takes over and there is an intellectual acceptance rather than an inner conviction of God’s truth. Finally, religion goes into a late fall and winter season in which material power becomes the determining factor, and faith in God does not dominate any longer. Only the outward form of the religion remains because the original spirit is gone. People are believers in name only. Religion falls behind the times and it cannot understand nor interpret what is happening in the present world.

This is where the older religions such as Christianity are at today, in the winter season. They no longer represent what was originally revealed in the scriptures; they are religions of man, not God. This is why people are dropping out of Christianity and becoming nonbelievers. Many Christians go to Church but just as a formality, not because they really believe in God.

The Baha’i Faith is new so it is in its spring season. Baha’is who are involved are passionate about their Faith just as in the early days of Christianity. But of course it does not have much influence yet, it is much too new, as it takes a long time to establish a religion and gain many adherents. That will change over time, but it will take a long time, particularly because most religious people are attached to their older religions, thus not even open to looking at a new religion, let alone investigating it seriously.

You are correct that the evidence that I require for extraordinary claims, would at least be falsifiable. I have no reason to falsify YOUR motives, or the motives or your beliefs. I simply don't think they are realistic, practical, or even historical. But they are certainly real. But claiming that it is not rational to expect evidence for any CLAIM that a Messenger and a God exists, is an irrational and counter-intuitive claim. Should we not expect evidence that Santa Clause exists, before an adult makes the claim that he does exists? Of course neither exist. So why make a claim that can't be falsified in the first place?

No religious claim can be falsified nor can it be verified as true because all religious claims involve God, and God cannot be either falsified or verified. As such, any claims that Messengers of God exist cannot be falsified or verified either. That is just the way it is.

All we have is our own rational minds that we can use as a gauge to determine which if any religion is true. If it does not seem possible in our minds that it is true, such as is the case for me regarding Christian beliefs of rising from the dead and living in a restored earth, then we need to disregard it. The Baha’i beliefs are rational to me, which is the main reason I believe them.

But the existence of a God or Messenger is not based on interpretation, it should be based solely of objective facts.

My belief in Baha’u’llah is based upon the objective facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but even facts have to be interpreted. Two people can look at the same facts and interpret them very differently. For example, one person might look at the fact that Baha'u'llah was imprisoned and interpret that to mean He was a troublemaker and deserving of imprisonment whereas another person would look at those facts and understand that He was unjustly accused and never should have been imprisoned or exiled from place to place. That is why it is important to have ALL the facts, not just some of them.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I have no idea what you are talking about, editorializing. What direct question did you ask that I did not answer?

Context is very important. All I meant regarding the KKK is that the way to find out what they believe is to ask them. If one wants to find out what they are actually doing that is a separate matter. One would then need to investigate that with the FBI or some other law enforcement agency.

If you really do have evidence to justify your truth, then what evidence outside of the exclusive writings, teachings and religiosity, do you draw this truth from? What outside source do you compare your truth too?

If you want direct answers I will give you direct answers. I do not look for evidence outside of the Baha’i Faith because that is not where it is to be found. I do not need to compare what the Baha’i Faith teaches to outside sources. However, I would read outside sources if I determined they were objective sources rather than obvious attempts to discredit what the Baha’i Faith really teaches.

Sorry, but “degree of certainty should be objectively universal from many perspectives” has never happened with religious truth and it never will because all humans are different so all humans interpret what they read differently.

It can be determined that way. Its source is how we know if it is true or not. We have to read what the religion claims to be and determine if we believe it is true or not. Opinions of other people about a religion carry no weight whatsoever, because they are just opinions. Unless they have objective facts about the religion that can be proven with evidence they are up the creek without a paddle.

If what is written in my faith's original documents is true, that means anything that contradicts it is false. This is a logical point.

There is nothing to address except to say if they are true or false. How I could prove that they are false is by posting the truth for Baha’i sources, but anyone can still say the Baha’i Faith sources are not the truth, so what’s the point? Don’t you understand the problem?

I already know the Baha’i Faith is true, so unless someone can disprove that I have no reason to change my mind. If company #1 that posts information about another company, company #2 it is competing with that is not the best source of information for the company #1. Likewise, you do not read websites written by Muslims or Christians to find out the “truth” about the Baha’i Faith, nor do you go to websites posted by ex-Baha’is who have a bone to pick with the Baha’i Faith. This is logic 101 stuff.

There is nothing blind about it. The requirements of a true seeker were delineated by Baha’u’llah. It is just qualities we should have and how we should go about seeking truth. It in no way precludes independent investigation of truth:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.​

I have answered all your questions. Show me one question I have not answered. Just because you did not get the answer you wanted does not mean I did not answer the question. I respond to every question posed to me.

I have asked for evidence to prove me wrong and I have gotten no such evidence. Websites posted by those who oppose the Baha’i Faith are not evidence because these are not the real facts about the Baha’i Faith.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi constitute the Baha’i Faith. Many people disagree with them but I have not seen anyone who has disproven them.

I did address them directly. I told you they are lies or half-truths. There is nothing more to say. It is an either/or. If the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi are true, what contradicts them is false. You are free to decide for yourself. There is no reason for me to believe that those that contradict are true because their motives are crystal clear. They seek to discredit the Baha’i Faith for whatever personal reasons they have. Show me some objective sources and I will be happy to look at them.

Yes, Mirza Yahya did attempt to kill Baha’u’llah more than once. One was the poisoning attempt. That is explained on this website: Plots and Attempts on the Life of Bahá’u’lláh

I do not avoid anything, but that does not believe I am going to believe lies, after I have searched for truth and determined what it is.

The issue certainly is the motives of the naysayers. When a crime is committed, the first thing that law enforcement asks is “what was the motive?”

The debunkers know that no Baha’i is going to even bother to address their calumny so they have a free-for-all on the internet. They are no different from con-men. They are just hoping some people will believe their lies rather than investigate the truth for themselves (according to the process delineated in the quotes above).


That is what I have said all along.

I now understand that you are not being honest and sincere. I was just a pawn being used to editorialize your cultist and nonsense belief. And, used as an excuse to fill the post with your unfalsifiable scriptural dribble. You had no intentions of proving anything from the outset. We were never really engaged in a sincere argument in search of even the relative truth. You already knew the truth, and only needed a means to express YOUR TRUTH, and YOUR LOGIC, for YOUR FAITH. I think that it is best to agree that we both have a very clear difference of opinion, relating to reality. I certainly don't want to insult both our intelligence anymore.