Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Truly Enlightened]

Nope, there is nothing special about me except that I am a sincere seeker of Truth. There are others, but there do not seem to be many. Most people only seek to disparage.

I do not have or need any insight into the mind of God. I only know God’s Will for humanity for this age in history (what God wants humanity to do), because Baha’u’llah revealed it.

Evidence is required and I have plenty of it, reams of books that have been written about the Baha’i Faith as well as what Baha’u’llah wrote.

The Baha’i Faith is falsifiable. If Baha’u’llah could be proven to be a false prophet then that would mean He was not a Messenger of God. Jesus explained how to distinguish a true prophet from a false prophet is in Matthew 7:16-20.

I have asked people to try to prove Baha’u’llah was a false prophet more than once, but so far nobody has been able to bring forth any evidence that would prove He was a false prophet. The truth about Baha’u’llah has been carefully documented and it is in books that depict the history of the Baha’i Faith. Detractors who bring forth lies about Him do not count as evidence.

I am not saying that it can be proven as a fact that Baha’u’llah was a real Messenger of God, but it can be proven to individuals who did the “independent investigation” and proved it to themselves. That is the only way it can be proven.

“The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4​

So, if you can prove that the Baha'u'llah is not a Messenger of a God, then he(are Messengers always a He?) must be a Messenger from a God. Is this what you think falsification means? It is always possible to CONVINCE people that a God(and then a Messenger) exists. But having psychological certitude is not the same thing as having proof. Persuading someone of something is hardly the same thing as proving it. People believe in all sorts of things for poor reasons, or just no reasons at all. A proof is a relationship between the thing to be proven and the person offering that proof. For example, water has always been composed of one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, but there was no proof of that until the nineteenth century. Until this belief was demonstrated and confirmed through chemistry, no one knew this to be a natural fact. Where is the demonstrable proof for God?

You have already stated that you have NO insight into the mind of a God. Then you claim that you know only the Will of a God. How do you know this? Through the writings of a dead human? Just another self-serving rationale, like I know God exists because the Bible tells me so. Are you also saying that, "it can be proven to individuals who did the independent investigation and proved it to themselves"? So, only those already in the choir can be convinced of the proof. And for those outside of the choir can't be. This again sounds like elitism, the special privileged, and as part of the self-sustaining ethos of club mentality. What you are saying is that this belief can't be objectively proven. Therefore it is totally subjective, and is only rational to the subject.

“The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen

Why didn't the red flags go up after requiring that you cleanse your heart from all earthly affections? Or the wine of certitude? Do you prefer to be ignorant, and emotionally vacant to other? Doesn't this tend to make you more vulnerable to implausible suggestions? Did you ever stop to think, why any human being should feel unworthy, or how a human being can obtain any knowledge directly from a God? Can the phrase "recipient of a grace that is infinite and unseen", be anymore vague? Did you ever stop to think who may benefit from your obedience, and blind pious servitude? What would be the evolutionary advantage in a world of sameness? I suspect that people join these alternative beliefs, for reasons that certainly have nothing to do with the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the biblical god existed he is something of a king, dictator or ruler who demands all sorts of attention and obediance.

So think of any king or dictator of any society, did they make themselves known beyond a shadow of a doubt? Yes, people had zero questions as to who their king was. In the same way god would appear and provide absolute proof to every nation and person, he would leave no doubt if he wanted to be known and believed in.

God is not a king or a dictator and God does not need or demand attention from humans. That is a biblical anthropomorphism.

God does not demand obedience, God leaves it up to us whether to obey or not. We all have free will to choose.

I have no idea why you think God would provide absolute proof to every nation or person or why God would leave no doubt. God does not need to be known or believed in because God does not need anything from anyone. Whatever God does He does for our sakes, not for His own sake.

Have you seen the latest re-make of Superman? That is exactly what he would do. Except instead of saying "I'm not god, I'm just a guy from Krypton" he would say "I'm God" then he would smash a tank and fly away and rescue people off a burning oil rig. Then fly across NY city and create a sonic boom and everyone would be set on if God existed.

He wouldn't be an invisible concept in a religion stolen from earlier religions.

But that is who God is, invisible, inaccessible, and beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

 

[Trailblazer]

Children raped, starved and murdered. Corporations fund power plants that slowly kill the world and life. That is what I say when people ask me the question of "Why don't you think God doesn't exist?".

That is not evidence that God does not exist. It is evidence that humans have free will and some are selfish and greedy. God has nothing to do with it.

Get off your knees, slaves to a non-existent afterlife.

The afterlife is our real existence... The material world is insignificant by comparison. We are here for only a short time.

“Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 306​

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329​

 

[joelr]

God is not a king or a dictator and God does not need or demand attention from humans. That is a biblical anthropomorphism.

God does not demand obedience, God leaves it up to us whether to obey or not. We all have free will to choose.

I have no idea why you think God would provide absolute proof to every nation or person or why God would leave no doubt. God does not need to be known or believed in because God does not need anything from anyone. Whatever God does He does for our sakes, not for His own sake.

I don't know what you are talking about. God punishes and makes threats about eternal lakes of fire for non-believers. If someone said to you you had to do what they said or you will suffer in a lake of fire for eternity would you not say they were demanding obedience? That's hardly free will with a gun to your head.
Apparently God does need to be believed in and known, did he not have a problem with people worshipping false idols? Just read Genesis. God threatens people left and right with all sorts of terrors for all sorts of reasons. Non-believers get it pretty bad.
He's pissed off and whooping *** and you say he doesn't need anything??
That is ridiculous.
He acts like a dictator in the sky, jealous, whipping out tortures constantly?

Just in the first chapter???!

 

[Truly Enlightened]

God is not a king or a dictator and God does not need or demand attention from humans. That is a biblical anthropomorphism.

God does not demand obedience, God leaves it up to us whether to obey or not. We all have free will to choose.

I have no idea why you think God would provide absolute proof to every nation or person or why God would leave no doubt. God does not need to be known or believed in because God does not need anything from anyone. Whatever God does He does for our sakes, not for His own sake.

But that is who God is, invisible, inaccessible, and beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

The simple answer is because He supposedly loves us all, and wants us all to join us in His Kingdom on earth, or His Kingdom in Heaven. Which is why He mentions love 310 times throughout the Bible, and why free-will is never mentioned. I won't even begin to demonstrate the paradox that exist between free-will and an Omnipotent being. I personally don't believe in free-will, since over 90% of all our movements, behavior, and thoughts, are not dependant on our free-will. In fact, we would have been extinct a long time ago if we indeed depended on our free-will.

Does God demand our obedience? Of course He does. 22 Best Obedience Bible Verses – Encouraging Scripture , Is Obedience Essential? Must We Obey Jesus to Be Forgiven? . It is a requirement for righteousness, forgiveness, and eternal life. Our obedience is also required in the Ten Commandments. Stating that this choice is based on our free will is not true, if we consider what the consequences are. Thank God we do not live under a Theocratic Government. Imagine following orders that can never be questioned. If obedience was unquestionable. If individual rights and freedoms were decided by a group of old men, with powers given to them by a mentally created unfalsifiable myth. If there were a real God, I would gladly follow. But it would be manic to follow a make believe fantasy that does not exist in reality.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

That is not evidence that God does not exist. It is evidence that humans have free will and some are selfish and greedy. God has nothing to do with it.

The afterlife is our real existence... The material world is insignificant by comparison. We are here for only a short time.

“Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 306​

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329​

Now this is truly disturbing, "The afterlife is our real existence... The material world is insignificant by comparison. We are here for only a short time". Maybe we should end it all now, since the material world is so insignificant? Maybe we should hurry-up the process and join the virgins, beyond the land of poison Kool-Aid? This is truly cult mentality. It is true that we all have the illusion of free-will, and that it is the nature of many humans to be greedy and selfish, but what is the evidence that God has nothing to do with this? Simply asserting it, or pointing to the writings of a dead human being, is not objective or corroborating evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know what you are talking about. God punishes and makes threats about eternal lakes of fire for non-believers. If someone said to you you had to do what they said or you will suffer in a lake of fire for eternity would you not say they were demanding obedience? That's hardly free will with a gun to your head.

Newsflash: God never made such threats. The Bible was written by men and much of it was symbolic, not literal. Nobody ever really understood what it meant. However, it is such a mess there is no way to sort it out now.

There is no lake of fire for anyone, let alone nonbelievers. There might be a hell for some people, but it will be a self-created hell, one created through their thoughts and actions.

Apparently God does need to be believed in and known, did he not have a problem with people worshipping false idols? Just read Genesis. God threatens people left and right with all sorts of terrors for all sorts of reasons. Non-believers get it pretty bad.
He's pissed off and whooping *** and you say he doesn't need anything??
That is ridiculous.
He acts like a dictator in the sky, jealous, whipping out tortures constantly?

Just in the first chapter???!

Sorry, I am a Baha’i. I do not adhere to the Bible. It is not the Word of God; it is the word of men who claimed to be inspired by God. The Bible is fraught with transcription and translation errors. There was a time in history when that is all people had, but time has moved on and now humanity has a new Revelation form God through Baha’u’llah.

The Bible has done so much damage to the minds of humanity, especially the Old Testament. It certainly has damaged nonbelievers. All my atheist friends can no longer believe in God because of the Bible. It is a travesty. It is time we moved on and stopped talking about ancient texts. We have new scriptures now.

God does not have to be jealous of anyone because God has no competition since God is one and alone, above all that exists.

God is a Ruler but He is not a dictator. There is a huge difference.

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

 

[Trailblazer]

"Informed faith"? Sounds oxymoronic to me, like informed ignorance. Faith, by definition, requires NO evidence at all, only a BELIEF that the evidence exists.

No, that is not true. We have evidence for what we are able to obtain evidence for, all the facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but we cannot prove that God spoke to Baha’u’llah so we have to have faith for that. It is a reason-based faith because we have a good reason to believe it given the facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Even the Aqdas is hearsay without corroborating objective evidence. Let the facts fall where they may. Correct me at anytime if the facts are incorrect (not simply denying them). The Baha'i faith was created in Iran in 1844. The Baha'i faith reaffirms that Islam is the true religion as revealed by Allah. The Baha'i faith believe that Mohammed is a true prophet of God, and that the Qur'an is the Word of God. The forebears of the Babi Sect led a violent revolution in Iran, and some of the members even attempted to assassinate the Shah. Their leadership was later exiled to the Ottoman Empire(Persia), where internal violence lead to house arrest. Baha'u'llah was poisoned by his brother. The Baha'i faith was restricted, members arrested or banished, by the governments of most of the Middle eastern countries. Baha'u'llah's brother also claimed to be the Messenger(manifestation) from a God. Is this a true representation of parts of your history?

The Bab declared His Mission in 1844. The Bab had His own followers who were called Babis and His own religion called the Babi religion, until he was executed in 1850.

The Baha’i Faith did not start until 1863 when Baha’u’llah publicly declared His Mission. We say that the Baha’i Era started in 1844 because that is when the Bab came to announce the coming of “Him Whom God shall make manifest”. At that time the Bab did not know the identity of “Him Whom God shall make manifest” but He knew He was in Persia. The Bab sent one of his disciples to look for “Him Whom God shall make manifest” and he found Baha’u’llah. The disciple knew Baha’u’llah was “Him Whom God shall make manifest” by what He had heard about Him.

The Bab told His followers that they should follow “Him Whom God shall make manifest.” They were granted a respite of nineteen years (1844-1863).

“I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 7​

The rest of what you stated is pretty much correct.

Do you select only the parts that support your belief, and deny or ignore the rest? It is only the evidence that tells the true story. Since your own sites ovoid posting evidence (just like you), they are NOT credible. They are all self-promoting, and not meant to inform. They are only meant to convince those already susceptible to this type of rhetoric.

All official Baha’i websites have the correct information about Baha’i history and the Baha’i Faith. We are not trying to hide anything.

Facts about the Baha’i Faith are facts. We are not trying to promote anything.

Websites that present false information about the Baha’i Faith are not meant to inform people about the truth. Their only motive is to denigrate and defame the Baha’i Faith and they have motives.

Why do you think that the Truth about the Baha’i Faith would be presented by its enemies? This is logic 101 stuff. The Truth about the Baha’i Faith comes from the Baha’i Faith, like duh. How naïve can people be not to know that most non-Baha’i websites are trying to defame the Baha’i Faith with calumny. There are some websites that present half-truths or accurate information but many of them are designed to deceive unsuspecting readers. How do you think you would ever know the difference if you were not a Baha’i?

Any rational person who wants the truth about the Baha’i Faith looks at Baha’i sources. There is no conspiracy to cover things up but that is what the detractors want you to think. Only an irrational person would fall for this garbage. It is so obvious what these people are trying to do, but it won’t ever work because the truth about the Baha’i Faith is available for anyone who really wants know. The other people can fall for the lies if they want to.

All you do is make truth assertion, while depositing absolutely no objective evidence. You have no idea if a messenger is the only way a God can speak to humans, yet you keep implying that you have. You have no idea how a God would think, or what he/she can or will do. You simply believe everything that you are taught, because this is your level of susceptibility.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? There can never be objective evidence that a Messenger of God got a message from God. That is why we research the Messenger and all that surrounds His Life and revelation, in order to determine if we believe His claim. I know it is the only way that God can speak to humans because God has never spoken to humans any other way. I do not even need to be a Baha’i to know that.

Nobody taught me anything. How many times do I have to repeat that? I learned it myself by doing independent research, ever heard of that?

For example, asking people who do not believe in the existence of a God, why they have issues with a Messenger from a God, seems a very odd and ill-conceived question. Since the question only supports two irrational presumptions (God and Messenger exist), it might be easier to rephrase the question more rationally. What would be your reason why all men are literally Gods?

No, when I ask nonbelievers why they have issues with Messengers of God it does not presume they exist. It is hypothetical question. If God existed, why would God not use a Messenger? If God did not use a Messenger how else could God communicate to humans?

Let's see. All members of the group believe that anything and everything that a dead person wrote 127 years ago, is truly the Will of a God. And your rational justification is, "that God doesn't make mistakes". This is worst than the absence of truth, is the truths. This blind level of adherence, and blind obedience, IS the very definition of a cultist mentality.

No, it is not blind because we did our due diligence before we believed that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. It is not cultist because people follow cult leaders blindly.

What religion? Yours is a composite of many religions, mainly Shiite.

No, the Baha’i Faith is not a composite of other religions. It is a new religion revealed by a new Messenger of God, Baha’u’llah. It is a new Revelation from God.

If you claim that a supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present entity, needs a Messenger to communicate with the being He/she created in the first place, then YES, I can determine that it is not rational. [/QUOTE]
Why isn’t it rational? Tell me how God could communicate to humanity in any other way.

It is not a matter of what God needs; nobody knows what God needs. It is a matter of what God chooses to do. God chose to use Messengers because that is what has worked throughout all time, as evidenced by the fact that 93% of people believe in God. God is not going to cater to the 7% of atheists who do not like His Messengers.

You are not talking about possibilities, you are talking about certainty. Any rational person will indeed question this certainly, because of the counterintuitive, and irrational nature of the claim.

The claim is completely rational because there is no realistic way God could communicate to humanity except through a Messenger that is both human and divine.

The old adage will always be, "if it sounds too good to be true, than chances are....".

That is just a saying. Sometimes what seems too good to be true is true and logic does not preclude it.

Exactly, what are the consequences that rational thinkers will face, if they do not agree with your nonsense? Especially, since you claim belief is voluntary. Please don't suggest that rational people would voluntarily choose a negative outcome, over a positive one.

Please do not use that on me anymore – rational thinkers – because that implies that those who don’t think like you are irrational. I do not know what the consequences are of non-belief because I am not God. I only know what the rewards are for belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, if you can prove that the Baha'u'llah is not a Messenger of a God, then he (are Messengers always a He?) must be a Messenger from a God. Is this what you think falsification means?

No, that is not what I think it means. If you can prove that Baha’u’llah was not a Messenger of God, then that means He was not a Messenger of God. If you cannot prove He was not a Messenger of God that does not prove He was a Messenger of God.

It is always possible to CONVINCE people that a God (and then a Messenger) exists. But having psychological certitude is not the same thing as having proof. Persuading someone of something is hardly the same thing as proving it.

The thing you apparently do not understand or refuse to acknowledge is that nobody convinces Baha’is of anything. We do our own research and determine what to believe. We determined who Baha’u’llah was and we have certitude so that is proof for us. There is no objective proof for a Messenger of God.

People believe in all sorts of things for poor reasons, or just no reasons at all. A proof is a relationship between the thing to be proven and the person offering that proof. For example, water has always been composed of one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, but there was no proof of that until the nineteenth century. Until this belief was demonstrated and confirmed through chemistry, no one knew this to be a natural fact. Where is the demonstrable proof for God?

Religious beliefs cannot be demonstrated and confirmed like scientific facts.

You have already stated that you have NO insight into the mind of a God. Then you claim that you know only the Will of a God. How do you know this? Through the writings of a dead human? Just another self-serving rationale, like I know God exists because the Bible tells me so.

Why does it matter if Baha’u’llah is dead? How else could we ever know anything about God’s Will except through scripture? God is not going to whisper sweet nothings in our ears. There is nothing self-serving about it because we are not looking to get anything for ourselves, we are serving God.

Are you also saying that, "it can be proven to individuals who did the independent investigation and proved it to themselves"? So, only those already in the choir can be convinced of the proof. And for those outside of the choir can't be. This again sounds like elitism, the special privileged, and as part of the self-sustaining ethos of club mentality. What you are saying is that this belief can't be objectively proven. Therefore it is totally subjective, and is only rational to the subject.

There are objective facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah that can be studied but how we interpret those is subjective. If we go in with a bias it is completely hopeless that we will ever see the truth unless we can overcome that bias.

No, it is not only those in the choir that can be convinced because at one time they were outside the choir. Everyone has an equal chance, but obviously they have no chance if they have already made up their minds. A closed mind guarantees they will never understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

The simple answer is because He supposedly loves us all, and wants us all to join us in His Kingdom on earth, or His Kingdom in Heaven. Which is why He mentions love 310 times throughout the Bible, and why free-will is never mentioned. I won't even begin to demonstrate the paradox that exist between free-will and an Omnipotent being. I personally don't believe in free-will, since over 90% of all our movements, behavior, and thoughts, are not dependant on our free-will. In fact, we would have been extinct a long time ago if we indeed depended on our free-will. .

Our will works in conjunction with God’s will. Without God’s assistance we would not be able to do anything at all.

Free will is implicit in the Bible. It does not have to be spelled out. If people had free will they could not be held accountable for believing in Jesus or God. Any Jew will explain the importance of free will in man’s life.

Does God demand our obedience? Of course He does. 22 Best Obedience Bible Verses – Encouraging Scripture , Is Obedience Essential? Must We Obey Jesus to Be Forgiven? . It is a requirement for righteousness, forgiveness, and eternal life. Our obedience is also required in the Ten Commandments. Stating that this choice is based on our free will is not true, if we consider what the consequences are. .

The thing is, everything on those websites is out of date. Whatever is demanded by God is now in the Writings of Baha’u’llah and it is nothing like what you read in the Bible. I wish they’d burn that book. It has caused so much damage to so many people.

Free will has nothing to do with consequences, nothing at all. If a man holds me up in a dark alley I am free to give him my wallet or suffer the consequences. Likewise, we are all free to believe in God or suffer the consequences, although those consequences are not what are stated in the Bible. The Bible has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. That is good news for nonbelievers, so I do not know why they insist on referring to the Bible.

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."
('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"
(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)​

 

[Trailblazer]

Now this is truly disturbing, "The afterlife is our real existence... The material world is insignificant by comparison. We are here for only a short time". Maybe we should end it all now, since the material world is so insignificant? Maybe we should hurry-up the process and join the virgins, beyond the land of poison Kool-Aid? This is truly cult mentality. It is true that we all have the illusion of free-will, and that it is the nature of many humans to be greedy and selfish, but what is the evidence that God has nothing to do with this? Simply asserting it, or pointing to the writings of a dead human being, is not objective or corroborating evidence.

Please do not create straw men. I never said we should end it now. In fact, the main reason that we have not been told more about the afterlife is so we will not end it, because if we knew about the afterlife we would not be able to bear one more minute in this world.

"Bahá'u'lláh says that were we to have the proper vision to see the blessings of the other world we would not bear to endure one more hour of existence upon the earth. The reason why we are deprived of that vision is because otherwise no one would care to remain and the whole fabric of society will be destroyed.” (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 22, 1932)​

We are in this world for a good reason, to acquire spiritual qualities (good character), so in that sense it is not insignificant; but by comparison to the life to come it is insignificant since it is a very small part of our total existence, which is eternal.

I do not need the Writings of Baha’u’llah to know why people are greedy and selfish. That has nothing to do with God. It is because they choose to be greedy and selfish and they alone are responsible for that choice. You can call it free will or something else, but it all amounts to the same thing – people make choices.

God does not “make” anyone do anything so it cannot be God’s fault.

 

[joelr]

Newsflash: God never made such threats. The Bible was written by men and much of it was symbolic, not literal. Nobody ever really understood what it meant. However, it is such a mess there is no way to sort it out now.

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

Yes I believe the Bible is symbolic.
The Bahahllah page sounded like a lot of God is so great mumbo-jumbo with a call for a demi-god.
I'm not familiar with the movement. Are there any demi-gods running around who can prove they have magic powers or any text that puts forth some good philosophy or scientific revelation.
For once it would be nice to see one of these "divine revelation" people teach us some new science or solve the Reimann hypothesis, just to prove divinity.

I mean - "Hey reality exists...so praise God!" I guess. This is late 1800s, did he "divine" any info about how particles are also waves or how mass is energy?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I believe the Bible is symbolic.
The Bahahllah page sounded like a lot of God is so great mumbo-jumbo with a call for a demi-god.
I'm not familiar with the movement. Are there any demi-gods running around who can prove they have magic powers or any text that puts forth some good philosophy or scientific revelation.
For once it would be nice to see one of these "divine revelation" people teach us some new science or solve the Reimann hypothesis, just to prove divinity.

I mean - "Hey reality exists...so praise God!" I guess. This is late 1800s, did he "divine" any info about how particles are also waves or how mass is energy?

Sorry, religion is not science. However, the Baha'i Faith upholds the importance of science as being just as important as religion:

“Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism...” Paris Talks, p. 143​

 

[joelr]

Sorry, religion is not science. However, the Baha'i Faith upholds the importance of science as being just as important as religion:

“Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism...” Paris Talks, p. 143​

I know. My belief is that if someone can provide divine revelations that is clear, eloquent and very specific they would be able to provide information about the universe that we previously did not know.
Knowledge is not limited to science. That page sound like it was written by a nice man who held simple basic spiritual concepts, respected science and gave sermons at some church.
I don't think a divine revelation would happen just to put forth Chicken Soup For the Soul?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

No, that is not true. We have evidence for what we are able to obtain evidence for, all the facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but we cannot prove that God spoke to Baha’u’llah so we have to have faith for that. It is a reason-based faith because we have a good reason to believe it given the facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

The Bab declared His Mission in 1844. The Bab had His own followers who were called Babis and His own religion called the Babi religion, until he was executed in 1850.

The Baha’i Faith did not start until 1863 when Baha’u’llah publicly declared His Mission. We say that the Baha’i Era started in 1844 because that is when the Bab came to announce the coming of “Him Whom God shall make manifest”. At that time the Bab did not know the identity of “Him Whom God shall make manifest” but He knew He was in Persia. The Bab sent one of his disciples to look for “Him Whom God shall make manifest” and he found Baha’u’llah. The disciple knew Baha’u’llah was “Him Whom God shall make manifest” by what He had heard about Him.

The Bab told His followers that they should follow “Him Whom God shall make manifest.” They were granted a respite of nineteen years (1844-1863).

“I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 7​

The rest of what you stated is pretty much correct.

All official Baha’i websites have the correct information about Baha’i history and the Baha’i Faith. We are not trying to hide anything.

Facts about the Baha’i Faith are facts. We are not trying to promote anything.

Websites that present false information about the Baha’i Faith are not meant to inform people about the truth. Their only motive is to denigrate and defame the Baha’i Faith and they have motives.

Why do you think that the Truth about the Baha’i Faith would be presented by its enemies? This is logic 101 stuff. The Truth about the Baha’i Faith comes from the Baha’i Faith, like duh. How naïve can people be not to know that most non-Baha’i websites are trying to defame the Baha’i Faith with calumny. There are some websites that present half-truths or accurate information but many of them are designed to deceive unsuspecting readers. How do you think you would ever know the difference if you were not a Baha’i?

Any rational person who wants the truth about the Baha’i Faith looks at Baha’i sources. There is no conspiracy to cover things up but that is what the detractors want you to think. Only an irrational person would fall for this garbage. It is so obvious what these people are trying to do, but it won’t ever work because the truth about the Baha’i Faith is available for anyone who really wants know. The other people can fall for the lies if they want to.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? There can never be objective evidence that a Messenger of God got a message from God. That is why we research the Messenger and all that surrounds His Life and revelation, in order to determine if we believe His claim. I know it is the only way that God can speak to humans because God has never spoken to humans any other way. I do not even need to be a Baha’i to know that.

Nobody taught me anything. How many times do I have to repeat that? I learned it myself by doing independent research, ever heard of that?

No, when I ask nonbelievers why they have issues with Messengers of God it does not presume they exist. It is hypothetical question. If God existed, why would God not use a Messenger? If God did not use a Messenger how else could God communicate to humans?

No, it is not blind because we did our due diligence before we believed that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. It is not cultist because people follow cult leaders blindly.

No, the Baha’i Faith is not a composite of other religions. It is a new religion revealed by a new Messenger of God, Baha’u’llah. It is a new Revelation from God.

If you claim that a supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present entity, needs a Messenger to communicate with the being He/she created in the first place, then YES, I can determine that it is not rational.

Do you always change the goal posts when it suits you, or do you argue only from inertia(just to go the distance)? It is clear that you are not a rational or a critical thinker, if you need to resort to this level of intellectual dishonesty. Let's look at some of your desperate misrepresentations, distortions, and denials.

"Informed"(knowledge from evidence) "faith"(knowledge in lieu of evidence). These terms are clearly oxymoronic to any rational person by definition. Your answer is "No, that is not true. We have evidence for what we are able to obtain evidence for, all the facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah..". Of course the question was for any evidence supporting the existence of a Messenger for God, or God Himself. Another, "bait and switch" tactic, since no evidence validates a belief in the existence of a Messenger, or a God.

I am not interested in your indoctrinated version of the Baha'i history. You have proven that your cognitive properties only lend themselves to self-serving biases. What are the "enemies" of the faith getting wrong? What are their motives? Other than just denying it, prove that they are wrong. Or will you just keep denying their claims, or simply imply that they just don't like your belief? Are the restrictions on women true or false? Did Azal poison Baha'u'llah(died of fever, not executed)? Maybe you can also address and defend these other factual claims? The Bahai Truth – All That They Didn't Tell You About the Faith .

Do you really think that it is rational to expect, that any source that promotes itself, would be an impartial source for finding the truth? You think that if I want to find out the truth about the KKK, that I should only read its literature or visit its sites? That would be irrational, wouldn't it? Or, do you think that this is what is meant by an "Independent search for truth"? What exactly did you research, outside of in-house scriptures, from in-house books, that you keep posting ad nauseam?

Since there is no rational, objective evidence to support the belief in a supernatural Messenger for God, or God Himself, there is no rational reason to be convinced that a God or Messenger exists at all. If either existed, there would certainly be evidence for that existence. Not the silly supposition, that because we know a lot about another human, that this somehow equates as indirect proof? Pure confirmation bias.

No, it is not blind because we did our due diligence before we believed that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. It is not cultist because people follow cult leaders blindly.

Cult followers say exactly the same thing as you do. They all say differently, when they are mentally capable of adopting a more rational, objective, and critical perspective. You have far too much invested to be objective at all.

No, when I ask nonbelievers why they have issues with Messengers of God it does not presume they exist. It is hypothetical question. If God existed, why would God not use a Messenger? If God did not use a Messenger how else could God communicate to humans?

The question in incoherent, not hypothetical. When did you stop beating your wife? Is this a hypothetical question, or does it presumes things that are not true? Why do you presume that non-believers would have an issue with a Messenger from God? There issue is with the evidence supporting the claim, not the claim. If God, who created us, is all these OMNI'S that humans attribute to Him, then speaking to his creations should be a cinch. What is weird, is that you seem to think that a Messenger is His only option. How do you know the limits of a Gods means of communication? You don't. But, you must believe that you do.

You have absolutely no certainty of any rewards in the future, or in the afterlife. You have only a belief, and a blind dependency on the dogma that insulates you from any rational and critical thinking. Why would a LOVING God sacrifice a billion people, simply because He fails to present evidence for His existence to them? Their only crime is to believe based only the evidence, and the other 93% choose to believe based only on the absence of the evidence.

Exactly, what are the consequences that rational thinkers will face, if they do not agree with your nonsense? Especially, since you claim belief is voluntary. Please don't suggest that rational people would voluntarily choose a negative outcome, over a positive one.

Not sure why you are just repeating my comments. It was meant to be answered, not repeated. Are you also suggesting that there is no similarities between the tenants of your beliefs, and the tenants of other beliefs? Just changing labels do not change the ideas. I'm afraid you are just another person trapped in their own "Asch Conformity" loop, and have lost the ability to be objective and self-critical. Also, a world-wide population of believers in one faith, living in perfect harmony, love, enlightenment, wisdom, and peace, does sound too good to be true. Hence, it IS too good to be true.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

No, that is not what I think it means. If you can prove that Baha’u’llah was not a Messenger of God, then that means He was not a Messenger of God. If you cannot prove He was not a Messenger of God that does not prove He was a Messenger of God.

The thing you apparently do not understand or refuse to acknowledge is that nobody convinces Baha’is of anything. We do our own research and determine what to believe. We determined who Baha’u’llah was and we have certitude so that is proof for us. There is no objective proof for a Messenger of God.

Religious beliefs cannot be demonstrated and confirmed like scientific facts.

Why does it matter if Baha’u’llah is dead? How else could we ever know anything about God’s Will except through scripture? God is not going to whisper sweet nothings in our ears. There is nothing self-serving about it because we are not looking to get anything for ourselves, we are serving God.

There are objective facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah that can be studied but how we interpret those is subjective. If we go in with a bias it is completely hopeless that we will ever see the truth unless we can overcome that bias.

No, it is not only those in the choir that can be convinced because at one time they were outside the choir. Everyone has an equal chance, but obviously they have no chance if they have already made up their minds. A closed mind guarantees they will never understand.

The greatest trick of any conman, is to have the mark believe that he/she is always in control. That he/she stay convinced that their decision are truly their own. It is only from an objective perspective, that these external subtle suggestions become clearly exposed for what they are. Your lack of perspective and rational reasoning only demonstrates your response to external mental cues. If I mention the same cues again, you will respond in the same way again. This explains the repetition, and logical fallacies. If there is no falsifiable evidence to suggest whether a Messenger or a God exists, then what are you defending? What are you trying to justify? Your belief?

Religious beliefs not only can't be demonstrated by scientific means, they also can't be demonstrated by any LOGICAL AND PHILISOPHICAL means. They are totally irrational.
​

Why does it matter if Baha’u’llah is dead? How else could we ever know anything about God’s Will except through scripture? God is not going to whisper sweet nothings in our ears. There is nothing self-serving about it because we are not looking to get anything for ourselves, we are serving God.

Why do you keep making these silly assertions. You don't have a clue if the writings from a dead human is the Will of a God, or what the limitations are on how a God can communicate with His creation. Not a clue. This is only a belief that you have convinced yourself of. Also, your motives are irrelevant to your claims. Please stick to the subject.

There are objective facts that surround the Revelation of Baha’u’llah that can be studied but how we interpret those is subjective. If we go in with a bias it is completely hopeless that we will ever see the truth unless we can overcome that bias.
No, it is not only those in the choir that can be convinced because at one time they were outside the choir. Everyone has an equal chance, but obviously they have no chance if they have already made up their minds. A closed mind guarantees they will never understand.

The choir analogy meant, that your words would only have relevance to those that have the same belief. Once you stated that "We believe everything that the Baha'u'llah wrote, and accept the fact that He was the Messenger of a God", you became a cultist, and the victim of cognitive dissonance. Impartial and critical thinking now becomes impossible. You also seem oblivious to the incredulous nature of your extraordinary claims. Not only are you claiming that a supernatural omnipotent creator exists, or that He communicates through a demigod, but that the Messenger's writings represents the Will of the Creator. And, it is His Will that all religions will become part of yours in this imaginary new world order. All this, because a foreign book says so, and a dead revolutionist writes it in a language similar to the Bible. What is clearly disturbing is that you seem to think that by not trying to defend your position, or having zero evidence(find it yourself) to support your position, that this is normal and not at all unusual.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Please do not create straw men. I never said we should end it now. In fact, the main reason that we have not been told more about the afterlife is so we will not end it, because if we knew about the afterlife we would not be able to bear one more minute in this world.

"Bahá'u'lláh says that were we to have the proper vision to see the blessings of the other world we would not bear to endure one more hour of existence upon the earth. The reason why we are deprived of that vision is because otherwise no one would care to remain and the whole fabric of society will be destroyed.” (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 22, 1932)​

We are in this world for a good reason, to acquire spiritual qualities (good character), so in that sense it is not insignificant; but by comparison to the life to come it is insignificant since it is a very small part of our total existence, which is eternal.

I do not need the Writings of Baha’u’llah to know why people are greedy and selfish. That has nothing to do with God. It is because they choose to be greedy and selfish and they alone are responsible for that choice. You can call it free will or something else, but it all amounts to the same thing – people make choices.

God does not “make” anyone do anything so it cannot be God’s fault.

Maybe we should end it all now, since the material world is so insignificant?

Where in my statement do I claim you stated that we should end our lives? Nowhere! Just more of your made up misrepresentations. However, the next sentence is worst. You are suggesting(you will deny later) that, "if we knew about the afterlife we would not be able to bear one more minute in this world". I can't wait to see how you will spend-doctor the meaning of this comment. Never mind.

You have no idea of what our purpose is for being in this world. If so, how do you know? Our existence in this world is to survive long enough to pass-on our genetic information to our offspring. Any other purpose is irrelevant from a survival perspective.

I do not need the Writings of Baha’u’llah to know why people are greedy and selfish. That has nothing to do with God. It is because they choose to be greedy and selfish and they alone are responsible for that choice. You can call it free will or something else, but it all amounts to the same thing – people make choices.

My statement was the that it is the nature of many humans to be greedy and selfish. They are genetically predisposed and physically predisposed with these attributes. My question was how does this relate to the existence of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

I know. My belief is that if someone can provide divine revelations that is clear, eloquent and very specific they would be able to provide information about the universe that we previously did not know.
Knowledge is not limited to science. That page sound like it was written by a nice man who held simple basic spiritual concepts, respected science and gave sermons at some church.
I don't think a divine revelation would happen just to put forth Chicken Soup For the Soul?

Maybe in the future more will be revealed about the universe through a divine revelation, but that is not what we need at this time in history. Humans cannot even get along with each other in the world we live in do that has to be remedied before anything else.

Here is the reason we get a divine revelation:

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

Here is the purpose of religion:

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215​

 

[Trailblazer]

If you claim that a supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present entity, needs a Messenger to communicate with the being He/she created in the first place, then YES, I can determine that it is not rational.

Yet you cannot give me ANY reason why it is not rational. How else do you think God could communicate, with a loudspeaker, writing on the sky? How do you think God could communicate the equivalent of what Baha’u’llah wrote, over 15,000 Tablets, any way other than scriptures?

Do you always change the goal posts when it suits you, or do you argue only from inertia(just to go the distance)? It is clear that you are not a rational or a critical thinker, if you need to resort to this level of intellectual dishonesty. Let's look at some of your desperate misrepresentations, distortions, and denials.

Of course the question was for any evidence supporting the existence of a Messenger for God, or God Himself. Another, "bait and switch" tactic, since no evidence validates a belief in the existence of a Messenger, or a God.

The evidence that supports the belief in the existence of a Messenger and thus a God is everything the surrounds the life and revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His authorized Interpreter wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

This evidence validates a belief in Baha’u’llah, thus it validates a belief in the existence of a Messenger and a God.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

I am not interested in your indoctrinated version of the Baha'i history.

Fine then, you can read a bunch of lies about the Baha’i Faith written by enemies of the Faith, which makes no logical sense at all.

You have proven that your cognitive properties only lend themselves to self-serving biases. What are the "enemies" of the faith getting wrong? What are their motives? Other than just denying it, prove that they are wrong.

Why would the enemies of the Baha’i Faith present accurate information about the Baha’i Faith? I do not know how much more I can say. The enemies of the new religion have tried to bring it down with calumny.

Or will you just keep denying their claims, or simply imply that they just don't like your belief? Are the restrictions on women true or false? Did Azal poison Baha'u'llah (died of fever, not executed)? Maybe you can also address and defend these other factual claims? The Bahai Truth – All That They Didn't Tell You About the Faith .

You are so naïve, to believe the smut posted in the internet. It is so obvious why they post these things. There are no secrets, nothing we have not been told. This is utter calumny. Go ahead, believe it if you want to. I do not care, why should it matter to me? It is not me who will suffer from believing calumny. I know the truth.

Why do you think people go to the trouble to attack the Baha’i Faith? Are we attacking or threatening them? Do we have beliefs that are harmful to humanity? Do you see them attacking any other religions online? No, only true religions are attacked. It has been that way throughout recorded history.

Do you really think that it is rational to expect, that any source that promotes itself, would be an impartial source for finding the truth?

The Baha’i sources do not promote the Baha’i Faith any more than the Bible promotes Christianity. They are just the accurate information about the history of the Faith written by those who were closest to it, those who lived in the nineteenth century and knew Baha’u’llah. After all, it was Baha’is who were closest to Baha’u’llah, and they are the ones who documented the history. How do you think anyone else could know the truth about what happened back then? The Baha’i Faith has not yet been researched by historians and written about so it is not part of academia yet. So what we have is the Baha’i version and the detractor’s version. The Baha’is have NO motive to present inaccurate information about their religion, none at all. We know the Baha’i Faith will reign victorious no matter how many people try to bring it down. The more they attack it the more it will grow, because their attacks cause rational people to look at what the Baha’i Faith really is, according to the Baha’i Faith. Any rational person would know that is how one gets accurate information.

Also, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are what they are. Nobody can ever change them because we have the originals. The detractors have tried to distort the history because they cannot distort the original writings of Baha’u’llah. Some detractors have tried to translate the Writings into English to say the exact opposite of the official translations; that is how desperate they are. But they were caught with their pants down because there are many Baha’is whose native languages are Persian and Arabic so they know what those Writings say in the original language.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The Baha’i Faith has been under attack since its inception and the reason is so obvious... Some men wantedfame, power and control so they wanted to usurp the rightful successors that were appointed by Baha’u’llah. Then there are the Christians who write false histories. Of course they have a motive. Once they realizethatBaha’u’llah claimed to be the return of Christ, they are so threatened by the Baha’i Faith they cannot see straight. There have been many men who claimed to be the return of Christ, but nobody ever paid them any attention. The more the Baha’i Faith comes into the limelight, the more they will attack it and try to bring it down but they will never succeed. The Cause of God will reign victorious.

You think that if I want to find out the truth about the KKK, that I should only read its literature or visit its sites? That would be irrational, wouldn't it? Or, do you think that this is what is meant by an "Independent search for truth"? What exactly did you research, outside of in-house scriptures, from in-house books, that you keep posting ad nauseam?

If you wanted to know what the KKK believes in and teaches its followers you would go straight to the KKK and ask them. That is the only way you are going to get accurate information. If you read anything about the KKK other than from the source, it is going to be biased one way or the other. Who knows better about what the KKK teaches than the members themselves, like duh? They believe in what they are doing so they will be happy to explain it to outsiders. Likkewise, the Baha’is are not trying to hide anything.

Since there is no rational, objective evidence to support the belief in a supernatural Messenger for God, or God Himself, there is no rational reason to be convinced that a God or Messenger exists at all. If either existed, there would certainly be evidence for that existence. Not the silly supposition, that because we know a lot about another human, that this somehow equates as indirect proof? Pure confirmation bias.

There is plenty of evidence. You just don’t like it.

The question in incoherent, not hypothetical. When did you stop beating your wife? Is this a hypothetical question, or does it presumes things that are not true? Why do you presume that non-believers would have an issue with a Messenger from God? There issue is with the evidence supporting the claim, not the claim. If God, who created us, is all these OMNI'S that humans attribute to Him, then speaking to his creations should be a cinch. What is weird, is that you seem to think that a Messenger is His only option. How do you know the limits of a Gods means of communication? You don't. But, you must believe that you do.

I do not know God’s limits, but God has no limits, but that does not mean God is going to do what you think He should do. God only does what God wants to do because God is All-Powerful. He does not take orders from humans. God is not going to speak directly to each and every human being on earth just because a few atheists don’t like the idea of God using messengers. That is so utterly inane. Also, nobody could EVER understand God if God spoke to them. That is another reason why God uses Messengers, since they have a divine mind that is capable of receiving communication from God. If God wanted to communicate some other way other than Messengers, why has He not done so?

You have absolutely no certainty of any rewards in the future, or in the afterlife. You have only a belief, and a blind dependency on the dogma that insulates you from any rational and critical thinking. Why would a LOVING God sacrifice a billion people, simply because He fails to present evidence for His existence to them? Their only crime is to believe based only the evidence, and the other 93% choose to believe based only on the absence of the evidence.

God did not fail; God did His duty when He sent Baha’u’llah. Humanity failed when they did not recognize Baha’u’llah and rejected Him. God did His is not responsible for this in any way.

The 93% believe in God based upon the evidence which are the scriptures of the various religions. The fact that you do not think it is evidence does not change a thing. It is the evidence God provides through His Messengers. Most everyone in the world can understand that except a few atheists who think they are so smart. That is their problem, their ego, and that is what bars them form the truth. God is not going to change His Method of communication to accommodate a few atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

The greatest trick of any conman, is to have the mark believe that he/she is always in control. That he/she stay convinced that their decision are truly their own. It is only from an objective perspective, that these external subtle suggestions become clearly exposed for what they are. Your lack of perspective and rational reasoning only demonstrates your response to external mental cues. If I mention the same cues again, you will respond in the same way again. This explains the repetition, and logical fallacies. If there is no falsifiable evidence to suggest whether a Messenger or a God exists, then what are you defending? What are you trying to justify? Your belief?

I am not trying to justify my belief. I am not trying to defend anything. I do not have to justify or defend anything to anyone. That is not my job. I already know what I believe. I am just responding to posts, but I am getting tired of your insults, be they direct or indirect. Do you even realize that this constant criticism is disrespectful, or maybe you do not care? It does not bother me because I know I am not doing the things you say and I am not the person you are trying to define. I am just pointing out that most everything you say is a barrage of criticism, and it is always negative.

I do not need your psychoanalysis. I have an MA in Counseling Psychology and I was a client in counseling for over 15 years. I know myself only too well. People who try to define other people instead of looking at themselves have serious problems. They are deflecting and projecting their own uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. They criticize others only do so to make themselves look smarter, and to feel superior to others. This is psych 101 stuff.

You are projecting what you do onto me. If I mention the same cues again, you will respond in the same way again. Ever noticed how you keep repeating yourself and saying the same things over and over again, or can you only see that in other people? You do not even try to understand where I am coming from, you just keep criticizing and labeling, over and over again. You do not listen to anything I say or try to understand it. You just criticize it. This is not a problem I have with anyone else so it cannot be because of the way I communicate. I just respond to what you say. How do you expect me to respond when you robotically keep saying the same things over and over again? I am finally saying something different, but will you respond to that or will you just keep repeating what you said before? Maybe you are not even aware you are doing this, I don’t know.

Religious beliefs not only can't be demonstrated by scientific means, they also can't be demonstrated by any LOGICAL AND PHILISOPHICAL means. They are totally irrational.

Believe whatever you want to. It is no skin off my nose or off God’s nose. Nobody needs your belief. You say things are irrational but you really cannot give a REASON why they are irrational. Just because they do not make sense to YOU does not mean they are irrational.

Why do you keep making these silly assertions. You don't have a clue if the writings from a dead human is the Will of a God, or what the limitations are on how a God can communicate with His creation. Not a clue. This is only a belief that you have convinced yourself of. Also, your motives are irrelevant to your claims. Please stick to the subject.

I do know that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Will of God. Exactly how I know is not something you can understand. I do not know God’s limitations but that is a moot point because God has never communicated to humanity any way other than His Messengers. There is no reason to think God is suddenly change His Method of communication.

The choir analogy meant, that your words would only have relevance to those that have the same belief. Once you stated that "We believe everything that the Baha'u'llah wrote, and accept the fact that He was the Messenger of a God", you became a cultist, and the victim of cognitive dissonance.

I am about done putting up with your derogatory labels and analyses. I am not a cultist and I do not have cognitive dissonance. Who do you think you are to label and define me? Nobody else but me would have put up with this as long as I have. It is so rude and disrespectful to define other people. Why don’t you look at yourself and speak for yourself instead of for me? What is your motive for looking at me and telling me how it is for me?

In general, the reason people label people and call them irrational and other derogatory things is to raise themselves up so they can feel superior.In your mind I have to be a cultist because otherwise I might actually have a legitimate religion. In your mind the only way I would believe what I do is if I had cognitive dissonance, but I do not have it. I have reasons for my beliefs that you do not understand. Why can’t you just leave it at that? If you really wanted to know you could ask and I could explain it, but that would just lead to more criticism because you won’t accept that I am a different person from you, a separate person with my own life history and reasons for believing, my own thought processes.

I have been going this same road with atheists on several forums for six years so I know the drill like the back of my hand, only I finally stopped putting up with it. Eventually several atheists stopped attacking me and my beliefs and we are now friends. They know I am not trying to convince them of anything and they can talk to me anytime they want to. I would never define any other person as anything. That is disrespectful. Just because people can get away withit as an anonymous person on a forum does not make it right.

Impartial and critical thinking now becomes impossible. You also seem oblivious to the incredulous nature of your extraordinary claims. Not only are you claiming that a supernatural omnipotent creator exists, or that He communicates through a demigod, but that the Messenger's writings represents the Will of the Creator. And, it is His Will that all religions will become part of yours in this imaginary new world order. All this, because a foreign book says so, and a dead revolutionist writes it in a language similar to the Bible. What is clearly disturbing is that you seem to think that by not trying to defend your position, or having zero evidence(find it yourself) to support your position, that this is normal and not at all unusual.

You just don’t quit do you? You just keep repeating the same things over and over again. Impartial and critical thinking is not impossible for me at all just because I have certain beliefs you think are unrealistic. Everything I believe makes perfect rational sense, but you think from a completely different perspective so you will never view it that way. Why not just agree to disagree?

You twist everything to make it look negative – imaginary new world order, dead revolutionist.

I do not care if you think it is unusual for me to tell people they have to do their own independent investigation. It makes sense that everyone does their own independent investigation so they will know for themselves, rather than getting information second hand. If I explained what it means to me that would just be my interpretation.

Me feeding you evidence makes NO sense at all. I do not care what you are used to. That is not the way the Baha’i Faith is learned. I have told you what the evidence is and all those categories of evidence can be researched.

The Baha’i Faith is the only religion that makes any sense at all. Everything fits together perfectly and it addresses individual spiritual needs and the needs of humanity as a whole. It is so all-encompassing I do not even understand it all.