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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You said, "Judaism had already been carried on and continued to carry on well past the first century, and yet you wonder why. That's odd."
    When you said, "and you wonder why", you were not referring to "Judaism had already been carried on and continued to carry on well past the first century"?

    No but you apparently think that deflecting absolves you of the sense of obligation.

    Why would I need to go back and read what I wrote, when I know what I wrote, but that you are assuming things according to your actually view?

    No. I am saying the hand fits the glove.
    Because you think something is fictional doesn't mean it is.
    So many people think your religious books are fictional, do you now accept they are?

    I asked because I wanted to know. Not because I drew any conclusions. This is another example of your assuming, and believing thing not there.
    Thanks.

    Thanks for giving your belief.
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Helllo. Hello.
    Hmm. Seems @rosends has abruptly left the conversation. I wonder why... They seemed a bit peeved. but that may be my perception, rather than the actual reality.
    I certainly hope...
    Was it the question I asked about the Messianic day....
    I wonder about that, because if Jews reject Daniel's prophecy, and Daniel is the only one I know of who prophesied of the Messiahs coming - specifying a time period, I wonder where the Jews got the Idea of a Messianic day.
    @rosends also mentioned Koresh as the Messiah, but when I googled "koresh messiah" I only get the one referred to as the madman David Koresh.

    I guess I won't know the answers to these things. Oh well, I guess I will just have to go ahead and say why the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, and why we know the Greek scriptures is the hand that fits the glove.

    It really is a shame the conversation ended so abruptly.
    I don't want to assume the worst.
    Perhaps they got a bit busy,as I do sometimes.
    I hope they are well.
    @rosends I hope you are well. Take care.
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If you didn’t then you would be agreeing that the covenant is eternal.

    Jer 31:33 “נָתַ֤תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם” and I will place my Torah in their midst and on their hearts.

    Sure -- Atonement in the Absence of Sacrifices?

    And also (if Wikipedia is more your speed) Jewish views on sin - Wikipedia

    Your misimpressions of atonement and divine forgiveness are not relevant? OK.

    So you are asking about a person’s ability to commit absolutely zero sins of any sort? A guy in a coma is probably not going to sin.


    The fact that there is one group of sins for which there were sacrifices doesn’t mean that sacrifices were for all sorts of sins. Selecting one verse doesn’t invalidate the rest. You might want to read up on the Jewish sacrificial system Tzav: the sacrificial system | Sefaria

    You asked about the notion of sin at the time of the “new covenant” – but since that is what will happen in messianic days, you are asking about sin and atonement then.

    That’s true. It mentions water and bread and milk and wine. If you want to see this literally then the verses are talking about a lunch buffet.

    When the future messiah comes. Here -- The Messianic Era
     
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  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Sure because you asked me why I continue to be Jewish and believe in Judaism even though there were people who, in the first century, chose not to. My statement is that there were also people before, during and after who chose to continue being Jewish and I can’t figure out why you wonder why some people didn’t believe instead of wondering why others did believe.

    What obligation? I asked you a question. You have yet to answer it. If you see the Quran as non-fiction, why don’t you follow it?


    Yes, because it took the hand’s measurements and crafted itself so that it would fit.

    And because you think it is non-fictional doesn’t mean it is.

    Nope. But I don’t ask those people to stop believing that, nor do I question their religious beliefs.

    Ah, this is just a random and unrelated question that you want to know, but you begin your statement with the word “So” which is often used in English to indicate a causal relationship (both as a conjunction and as an adverb). Consider me forewarned that you will be using the word in some other way.

    My pleasure.
     
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  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Because the Jewish sabbath began on Friday evening so I don't use the computer until Saturday night.

    Here -- you seem to be having trouble so I took the liberty of doing the search. This is the first result
    Yeshayahu 45; 1-17: Salvation Through Koresh But From Hashem

    Well, the sabbath has ended. I'm surprised that you are unfamiliar with the sabbath. It is an eternal covenant.
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I will respond to your posts, as soon as I can.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That's what the text says. :shrug: Did I disagree...

    Torah (/ˈtɔːrə, ˈtoʊrə/; Hebrew: תּוֹרָה‎, "Instruction", "Teaching" or "Law") has a range of meanings. It can most specifically mean the first five books (Pentateuch or five books of Moses) of the Hebrew Bible. This is commonly known as the Written Torah. It can also mean the continued narrative from all the 24 books, from the Book of Genesis to the end of the Tanakh (Chronicles). If in bound book form, it is called Chumash, and is usually printed with the rabbinic commentaries (perushim). If meant for liturgic purposes, it takes the form of a Torah scroll (Sefer Torah), which contains strictly the five books of Moses.

    It can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching, culture, and practice, whether derived from biblical texts or later rabbinic writings. This is often known as the Oral Torah. Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the origin of Jewish peoplehood: their call into being by God, their trials and tribulations, and their covenant with their God, which involves following a way of life embodied in a set of moral and religious obligations and civil laws (halakha).


    I'll stick with the translation of "Instruction", "Teaching" or "Law".
    The new covenant does not specify the law.

    Thank you.
    We are on two different pages where this is concerned.
    You believe that God forgives without the atoning sacrifice. I believe otherwise.
    Numbers 15:28 ; Leviticus 8:15 ; 17:11 ; Romans 3:21-26 ; 5:9 ; Ephesians 1:7 ; Hebrews 9:22 ; 10:11, 12
    The hand must fit the glove, I think.
    God is the one who does the forgiving, on the basis of the sin atoning sacrifice.

    I think what's irrelevant is the "all sorts of offerings". However, I apparently overlooked the "all sorts of sins not covered by offerings".
    I don't know where you saw that in scripture.

    (Leviticus 4:13-35)
    This is not one verse. It was the requirements of the law to make sin atoning sacrifices.
    Exodus 29:36

    :confused:

    Okay then. :nomouth:

    You take one scripture that doesn't speak of a Messiah, and you apply it to a Messiah, then apply it to an arbitrary character?

    I asked you? No, I didn't.
    Perhaps you got me mixed up with someone else, although I don't know who that could be.

    As far as I know, I have explained my position on the Qur'an.
    Perhaps you missed it.

    That's not how it looks to me. It looks more like God's "script".

    I tend to look at what the evidence reveals. If does not bear the features of fiction.

    :)


    o_O Cyrus!!!?
    Cyrus is your future Messiah. The one who came and fulfilled prophecy, in the fifth century and died in the fifth century?

    (Isaiah 44:28:4)
    (Isaiah 45:13) “I have raised up a man in righteousness, And I will make all his ways straight. He is the one who will build my city And set my exiles free without a price or a bribe,” says YHVH of armies.

    (2 Chronicles 36:22, 23) In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that YHVH’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, YHVH stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing, saying: “This is what King Cyrus of Persia says, ‘YHVH the God of the heavens has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all his people, may YHVH his God be with him, and let him go up.’”

    (Ezra 6:3) “In the first year of King Cyrus, King Cyrus issued an order concerning the house of God in Jerusalem: ‘Let the house be rebuilt as the place where they are to offer sacrifices, and its foundations are to be set in place; its height is to be 60 cubits, its width 60 cubits,

    Seriously.
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Great. So you agree with what I said in post 58 about the covenant's being eternal.

    The word "תורתי" is used approximately 12 times in scripture. Can you show me where it doesn't refer to the body of laws given by God to the people (you know -- what your cut and paste job says it "most specifically means")? I mean, besides your claim here that it refers to something new and not specified.

    We aren't on different pages. You are in a different book. I gave you sources to show my position. You cite a verse that says that some sins can be expiated through a sacrifice which does not invalidate the statement that some are forgiven without a sacrifice. (Num 31:50 describes donations as effecting atonement and I Kings 8:46-50 says prayer effects forgiveness).

    Well, I read about the chatat and the asham and noticed that they only cover certain unintentional sins, misuse of temple property and situations where the individual does not know if he sinned. Here is some light reading.

    You asked for an explanation of "messianic days" and I gave you some reading. The website starts with a discussion of a messianic era, answering your question. Try to keep up.

    QUOTE="nPeace, post: 6874041, member: 64320"]
    I asked you? No, I didn't.
    Perhaps you got me mixed up with someone else, although I don't know who that could be.[/quote]
    So you aren't interested in knowing why Jews dismiss the gospels and associated Christian writings and continue to follow Jewish teachings. OK. My mistake.

    Well, I asked in post 46 if you believed in the Quran. You answered "The Qur'an, recognizes the writings I accept, so why do I need to accept the Qur'an?" This makes no sense. I pointed out that the Quran also makes claims which don't accord with Jewish teachings which explains why I don't follow it, but you never clarified your position. Or maybe I missed it -- can you point me to where you explained your position, specifically why, if you don't see it as fiction, you choose not to follow it? Thanks in advance.

    To quote you, "That's not how it looks to me."


    No, he was Isaiah's future savior -- he lived some 200 years after Isaiah died. In post 62 you were having trouble finding information about the notion of Cyrus as a messiah so I found it for you. No one says you have to like it, but to then ask me about how it is something I never claimed it is is strange.
     
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Well I found it more than 40 times in this form...
    תורתי
    תּוֹרַ֖ת
    tō·w·raṯ (the law)

    ...and quite a number of times in other forms.
    וְהַתּוֹרָה֙
    wə·hat·tō·w·rāh (and the law)

    בְּתוֹרָתִ֖י
    bə·ṯō·w·rā·ṯî (in My law)

    הַתּוֹרָ֖ה
    hat·tō·w·rāh (law)

    וְתוֹרָתְךָ֖
    wə·ṯō·w·rā·ṯə·ḵā (and Your law)

    בַּתּוֹרָ֡ה
    bat·tō·w·rāh (in the Law)

    כְּתוֹרַ֖ת
    kə·ṯō·w·raṯ (according to the Law)

    A number of places applies it not to the entire law, but specific laws.
    Leviticus 6:9 Interlinear: Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is a law of the burnt-offering (it is the burnt-offering, because of the burning on the altar all the night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar is burning on it,) - This [is] the law of the burnt offering
    Leviticus 6:14 Interlinear: And this is a law of the present: sons of Aaron have brought it near before Jehovah unto the front of the altar, - this [is] the law of the meat offering
    Leviticus 6:25 Interlinear: Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, This is a law of the sin-offering: in the place where the burnt-offering is slaughtered is the sin-offering slaughtered before Jehovah; it is most holy. - This [is] the law of the sin offering
    Leviticus 7:1 Interlinear: And this is a law of the guilt-offering: it is most holy; - this [is] the law of the trespass offering
    Leviticus 7:7 Interlinear: as is a sin-offering, so is a guilt-offering; one law is for them; the priest who maketh atonement by it -- it is his. - As the sin offering is, so is the trespass offering: there is one law for them: the priest that maketh atonement therewith shall have it.
    Leviticus 7:11 Interlinear: And this is a law of the sacrifice of the peace-offerings which one bringeth near to Jehovah: - this [is] the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings
    Leviticus 7:37 Interlinear: This is the law for burnt-offering, for present, and for sin-offering, and for guilt-offering, and for consecrations, and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings, - This [is] the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings
    Leviticus 11:46 Interlinear: This is a law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature which is moving in the waters, and of every creature which is teeming on the earth, - This [is] the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth
    Leviticus 12:7 Interlinear: and he hath brought it near before Jehovah, and hath made atonement for her, and she hath been cleansed from the fountain of her blood; this is the law of her who is bearing, in regard to a male or to a female. - This [is] the law for her that hath born a male or a female
    Leviticus 13:59 Interlinear: This is the law of a plague of leprosy in a garment of wool or of linen, or of the warp or of the woof, or of any vessel of skin, to pronounce it clean or to pronounce it unclean.' - This [is] the law of the plague of leprosy in a garment
    Leviticus 14:2 Interlinear: 'This is a law of the leper, in the day of his cleansing, that he hath been brought in unto the priest, - This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing

    ...including...
    Proverbs 1:8 Interlinear: Hear, my son, the instruction of thy father, And leave not the law of thy mother, - My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother
    Proverbs 3:1 Interlinear: My son! my law forget not, And my commands let thy heart keep, - My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments
    Proverbs 4:2 Interlinear: For good learning I have given to you, My law forsake not. - For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law
    Proverbs 6:20 Interlinear: Keep, my son, the command of thy father, And leave not the law of thy mother. - My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother
    Proverbs 6:23 Interlinear: For a lamp is the command, And the law a light, And a way of life are reproofs of instruction, - For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life
    Proverbs 13:14 Interlinear: The law of the wise is a fountain of life, To turn aside from snares of death. - The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death
    Proverbs 31:26 Interlinear: Her mouth she hath opened in wisdom, And the law of kindness is on her tongue. - She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness

    You are taking out verses evidently for your convenience.
    Numbers 31 is not describing a sin atonement.
    The prayer in Kings related to a people in captivity. Of course the could not make atonement under those conditions, just as a Jew could not tell his captor, "Well I can't work today, because today is Sabbath".
    God had a basis for exemption on those occasions... as I pointed out scripturally.
    In that we are on two different pages, and yes, perhaps two books.

    If one is not aware of a sin, making atonement for an unknown sin is... :shrug:
    It is when one becomes aware of one's sin, one makes atonement.

    According to Isaiah 7, and Daniel 9, Cyrus the Great is not the Messiah.
    So if that is you answer, I accept you do not use scripture in your conclusions.

    Sure I am interested in that, but why claim that I asked something I did not, just because you believe they are both the same, and I don't know that?
    That's like someone asking for cake, and you bringing poo to them and saying, "Here. In our country, this is cake." "You didn't know that? Well sorry, you asked for it".
    I don't think being disrespectful wins any awards.

    Yes. You missed it.
    I have to search this thread which is not very long, in order to find the same thing you missed. So why do you want me to do the searching, rather than you?

    o_O :confused:
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You found it in a variety of other forms. That's nice. But when it is used in that form (torati) it means something consistently.

    Really? "So we have brought as an offering to the LORD such articles of gold as each of us came upon: armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and pendants, that expiation may be made for our persons before the LORD."
    An offering of gold to serve to atone for sin (the Hebrew phrase is l'chaper al nafshoteinu). No sacrifice. No blood. You wanted an example, I gave an example.
    So we have brought as an offering to the LORD such articles of gold as each of us came upon: armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and pendants, that expiation may be made for our persons before the LORD.
    The prayer in Kings related to a people in captivity. Of course the could not make atonement under those conditions, just as a Jew could not tell his captor, "Well I can't work today, because today is Sabbath".
    God had a basis for exemption on those occasions... as I pointed out scripturally.
    In that we are on two different pages, and yes, perhaps two books.[/quote]
    Oh, so I can give examples and you can decide that they are "exceptions." So much for providing examples. If you can dismiss them as your idea of "exception" whenever you want, no examples will be useful.

    You clearly have no awareness of an asham talui then. The "Doubtful" Guilt Offering - Positive Commandment 70

    I don't recall claiming that Cyrus is the Messiah. Cyrus isn't even mentioned on the website I provided to answer your question about the term "Messianic Era". If you intended this comment to address a different point, please connect it logically to that point. I don't think your confusing the issue by introducing things that aren't being spoken of is very productive.


    You are making the positive claim that you answered. I presented what I saw as your answer and pointed out the logical flaw in it. I can't find that you resolved what I asked. If you can't either, that's fine.

    Maybe this was where you meant to put in your comment about Cyrus. You might want to review Isaiah 45:1 in which Isaiah relates that God refers to Koresh (Cyrus) as a messiah. Or is that an "exception"?

    Making up rules as you go along doesn't serve any useful purpose.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I found it about 40 times in the form you claimed was only 12, and among those 40, there were about a dozen places where it did not apply to the first five book, or the law of Moses.
    Therefore the use of the term Torah does not always mean what you claimed, as I pointed out to you earlier.

    The example does not count since it does not apply to sins. The context of the chapter shows this.
    Atonement involved appeasing God, and that regardless of sins committed.
    Do you not follow the law regarding sin offerings?
    The account in Numbers 31, does not apply to sin atoning sacrifices.

    I explained already.

    Maybe I was seeing what's not there.
    I'll revisit it.

    I can, but if you don't really want it, that's fine.

    Perhaps we got mixed up somewhere with you links, because I am sure this is what I was reading from what you sent me.
     
  12. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    actually, I wrote "the word "תורתי" is used approximately 12 times in scripture" -- not the root nor other forms. I was speaking of the use of that form of the word. You cited other iterations of the root which is used to refer to many other things, but in that form? Nope.

    So even though the text EXPLICITLY says that it serves as an atonement, you insist it doesn't. Got it. It must be atonement for something that wasn't a sin, I guess. Just to remind you, you claimed that atonement requires sacrifice (or something like that) and I volunteered:
    "If you want a full discussion of biblical repentance (including how blood is not necessary and how sacrifices only atoned for a small group of sins and others required other means) I can give you all sorts of websites that lay it all out."
    You answered in post #60, "One would be sufficient."
    I have provided more than one.

    even though it says that the gold serves to atone, you decide it doesn't. OK.
    Maybe these will help Numbers 31:50 So we have brought to the LORD an offering of the gold articles each man acquired--armlets, bracelets, rings, earrings, and necklaces--to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD."
    Oh, I do. Please answer the question I asked. Right here. You can just copy and paste from wherever you already answered that question.
     
    #72 rosends, Nov 1, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    תורתי
    תּוֹרַ֖ת

    tō·w·raṯ (the law)

    Did I say it was not an atonement?
    Do you understand English reasonably well.
    Perhaps you need to read that post carefully.

    Atone for what? Sin? No.

    No. I have to search for it. If you really want it, you do that. That would not be too much would it?
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the second word (torat) means "the law OF". Please don't copy and paste if you don't understand. The final H letter in the Hebrew becomes a T letter when the form turns possessive.
    No, you said "The example does not count since it does not apply to sins." so you must see it as atonement for things that aren't sins, then. Do you understand English? What else do you atone for, exactly? I asked that in post 72, but you never answered.

    Right. One must atone for the non-sins. Do you think before you write this stuff down?

    I did search and I can't find it. You insist it is there so you must know where it is. If you don't know, that's fine. You just keep insisting it exists. I'll head to sleep now. This should give you a few hours to search for your clear answer. Or you could just post it again from memory.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Please provide the verses where Torah is found.

    Post #71
    Atonement involved appeasing God, and that regardless of sins committed.
    Do you not follow the law regarding sin offerings?
    The account in Numbers 31, does not apply to sin atoning sacrifices.

    (Exodus 29:33) They are to eat the things with which atonement was made to install them as priests and to sanctify them.. . .

    (Exodus 30:15, 16) 15 The rich should not give more and the poor should not give less than the half shekel as a contribution to YHWH to make atonement for your lives. 16You are to take the silver money of the atonement from the Israelites and give it in behalf of the service of the tent of meeting, that it may serve as a remembrance before YHWH for the Israelites, to make atonement for your lives.”

    (Leviticus 6:30) . . .no sin offering is to be eaten . . .
    (Leviticus 8:31-35)
    1 Then Moses said to Aaron and his sons: “Boil the flesh at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and you will eat it there with the bread that is in the installation basket, just as I was commanded, ‘Aaron and his sons will eat it.34 YHWH commanded that we do what we have done today in order to make atonement for you.

    It's not a failing on my part, but rather it seems evident, a lack on your part regarding knowledge of your own scriptures.

    Pleasant dreams.
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You mean like Deut 33:4? Isaiah 2:3 or 8:16? What are you looking for? The word is "torah" and the possessive is Torat (torah of). The first person-singular possessive is "torati" (torah of me, or my torah).

    "atonement" involved getting forgiveness from God. That's what the word means. In fact, the exact same 3 word phrase is used in the Hebrew of Exodus 30:16 (l'chaper al nafshoteichem - for making expiation for your lives) when talking about the half shekel payment to the temple as is used to describe the gold in Num 31:50 and, yes, the power of blood as explained in Lev 17:11. Precisely the same language. Of course Num 31 does not apply to sacrifices. That's the whole point -- it applies to atonement WITHOUT sacrifices. You asked for an example of that and I provided it. This doesn't mean that there are no sacrifices that have something to do with atonement, just that there is atonement that has nothing to do with sacrifices. Again, you asked for an example and I provided it. If you want to deny that these verses exist and say what they say, that's your choice. It is a bad one, though.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 33:4 is one of those twelve places?
    Could you then please explain what is the difference between what you read, and what I read here.
    Deuteronomy 33:4 Interlinear: A law hath Moses commanded us, A possession of the assembly of Jacob.
    You need to click the link for the Hebrew text.

    Many offerings are mentioned in Leviticus.
    According to the Jew, is there a difference between a sin offering, and a gift offering, communion offering , or sacrifice?
    Are you of the view that all of them are for forgiveness of sin - sin atoning sacrifices?
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Um, no. You have switched focus again. I pointed out that there are approximately 12 places in which the form of the word is "torati" and then you asked for examples of the word "torah" so I gave you Deut 33:4. I can walk you through the statements in the previous posts if that is what you need.
    If you switch what you are looking for, you are bound to get confused.

    And many other things are also mentioned.
    I don't know what a "communion" offering is, nor do I think you are using the word "sacrifice" properly. Did you know one can offer flour as a sacrifice? The difference is that though the flour is a "korban" a monetary payment, which can also effect atonement is not a korban.
    There are animal sacrifices (many) that have nothing to do with sin or atonement. I believe that in one of the earlier posts, I presented a link which listed a variety of types of animal-sacrifice with the purpose and role for each. Would you like me to find that for you again?
     
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  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I misunderstood what you said here.
    I took a look back and understand what I missed.
    So in your view, where torati is found, it always means the whole law of Moses. Hence, Jeremiah 31 is prophesied that the whole law of Moses would be written on the Jews heart, although it was in there before.
    Okay. I understand your viewpoint.

    So you do agree there are sacrifices to atone for sins, and other sacrifices?
    I was focusing on the sin atoning sacrifices. Were you aware of that?
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But I made the claim that sin atoning sacrifices don't account for every sin and that there are other methods of achieving atonement without animal (or flour) sacrifice. You asked for an example and I provided.
     
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