Questions about Thelema.

[StarryNightshade]

Wan't sure where to put this thread, so I'm putting it here in the LHP DIR.

A.) What is the core philosophy? If you are a practitioner, how has it applied to your life?

B.) Is it theistic or non-theistic?

C.) What are some of its biggest misconceptions?

D.) Can one be a Thelemite and follow another path? Like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc?

 

[Quintessence]

I have only a loose familiarity with it, so I won't say much. From what I understand, the core philosophy is about living in accord with your will. Will in Thelema reminds me of dharma in Eastern paths; it isn't the superficial ego desires, but your greater "life path/mission" so to speak. It is sometimes written as "True Will." Biggest misconception I have seen is the often quoted "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" being taken as permission to do anything you want. That is what it sounds like... until you recognize that will in Thelema has a pretty specific meaning that negates that interpretation. Don't know about the theism/non-theism, but from what little I've studied, it hasn't struck me as strongly theistic. As for path mixing... my reply is the same no matter what the paths in question are. You're responsible for your own religion, and you can mix and follow what you want.

Others who are more familiar than I will likely have more insightful comments.

 

[Octavia156]

Wan't sure where to put this thread, so I'm putting it here in the LHP DIR.

Hi Agnostic Seeker - I too have trouble choosing where to post on Thelema on this forum :/
I would enjoy the opportunity to give you my perspective on your questions.

A.) What is the core philosophy? If you are a practitioner, how has it applied to your life?

The core philosophy is Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, Love is the law, love under will.

This is such a deep and beautiful philosophy that it would be difficult for me to go into the full extent of it, in this first post... but like all rational things it can be explained very simply.

Thelema's belief is that every human being has a purpose in this incarnation, a role to play, a 'raison d'etre' if you will, and True Happiness comes from finding out what That this is and doing it.

The only dogma in Thelema says you should do your Will and nothing else. I guess the only "sin" in Thelema is knowing what your will is and deliberately not doing it

B.) Is it theistic or non-theistic?

It depends on the Thelemite you are talking to. Because there is no dogma in Thelema, no required believe in anything but Do what thou wilt, and nothing else.

It exists in a quantum state between being theist and non-theist.

In The Book of the Law, Thelema uses Theistic characters for literary purposes to portray supernormal or subjective phenomenon. For example we call Nuit a Goddess, but we are really referring to inifinty, space, possibility.. Abstract concepts are sycretised with Gods as a very effective way of communicating abstract ideas.

You could separate Thelemites into Orthodox-esque practioners and those who have simply accepted the Law of Thelema into their lives.
I am a Thelemite that believes success is the proof. If you are successful and happy you are doing your will. If something gets in the way, either physical or mental - you remove it with magick. I'd have to place myself toward the more Orthodox end of the spectrum; I have read and accepted Liber Al, and that we are living in a new Aeon. I practise Thelemic ritual daily, and it is the constant to which I measure every thought or action. I'm also a Physics teacher and a Scientist, and as yet nothing I have met in Thelema contricts or inflicts with Scientic or rational thought.

Exoterically I am an Atheist... but esoterically I'm a Gnostic.. for Thelema has taught me THere is no God but Man - i.e. I am a One of Many, that makes up the All, 0=2 a Western version of Taoism - I am solely in charge of my interpreation of this existance, and therefore of It i am god.

C.) What are some of its biggest misconceptions?

That we're are Satanic
That we're a bunch of hippies or new agers perhaps...

D.) Can one be a Thelemite and follow another path? Like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc?

Do what thou whilt shall be the whole of the Law

The Book of the Law doesn't speak highly of these religions. Medition on the higher concepts of Thelema demonstrate why are made obsolete, but in all cases it up to the individual to find hir own gnosis.

 

[Mindmaster]

I perhaps find it more interesting that nothing prohibits one from being Satanic and Thelemite. I harmonize very naturally with most of the ideas in Crowley's writings, but that is sort of where I learned my method anyway. I tend to approach spiritual matters with a scientific method rather naturally.

Where I think Thelema is useless is the dearth of complex symbolism. For example to truly understand anything Crowley writes you need a Ph. D in Graeco-Roman, Egyptian, and Kabbalah historically and mythologically and then throw in eastern religions and philosophies for good measure. Once you understand that you may be able to read a sentence he writes and truly understand the correlation. To give you some idea how long it legitimately takes to learn all that I think I was barely scraping the surface about two or three years into my study.. I started around age sixteen and carried well into my twenties. Personally, I would acquire Magick (big blue book) and Magick Without Tears and just jump right past 99% of what he wrote because much of his work is rehash of this and these two are the most approachable of his works. When I say learn those systems btw.. I mean you better know Latin, Koine Greek, and old Hebrew writing as well. There are lots of words and passages constructed from these languages throughout. Sure, you can get by without learning all of it... But, you are going understand half of what is going on and the constant googling everything gets really old. The Magick book contains the complete Book of the Law which really is the defining document. I suggest you hold off reading it for awhile until your Gemetria and Egyptian knowledge are up to par.

Anyone not telling you this is just not being fair with you. It really is dense, complicated, and something akin to mastering the subject of quantum physics. This complication is mostly from using mythological symbols throughout history (as the previous poster mentioned) so to understand it you have to know what all of these archetypes mean in context.

 

[Octavia156]

I perhaps find it more interesting that nothing prohibits one from being Satanic and Thelemite. I harmonize very naturally with most of the ideas in Crowley's writings, but that is sort of where I learned my method anyway. I tend to approach spiritual matters with a scientific method rather naturally.

Where I think Thelema is useless is the dearth of complex symbolism. For example to truly understand anything Crowley writes you need a Ph. D in Graeco-Roman, Egyptian, and Kabbalah historically and mythologically and then throw in eastern religions and philosophies for good measure. Once you understand that you may be able to read a sentence he writes and truly understand the correlation. To give you some idea how long it legitimately takes to learn all that I think I was barely scraping the surface about two or three years into my study.. I started around age sixteen and carried well into my twenties. Personally, I would acquire Magick (big blue book) and Magick Without Tears and just jump right past 99% of what he wrote because much of his work is rehash of this and these two are the most approachable of his works. When I say learn those systems btw.. I mean you better know Latin, Koine Greek, and old Hebrew writing as well. There are lots of words and passages constructed from these languages throughout. Sure, you can get by without learning all of it... But, you are going understand half of what is going on and the constant googling everything gets really old. The Magick book contains the complete Book of the Law which really is the defining document. I suggest you hold off reading it for awhile until your Gemetria and Egyptian knowledge are up to par.

Anyone not telling you this is just not being fair with you. It really is dense, complicated, and something akin to mastering the subject of quantum physics. This complication is mostly from using mythological symbols throughout history (as the previous poster mentioned) so to understand it you have to know what all of these archetypes mean in context.

Thats an exaggeration!

Part of Crowley's will was to take all the systems you mentioned, Eastern Thought too and unify them into one simple religion with no dogma, no blind faith, one that is based on Science & Reason.

The reason Thelema may seem complex to some is that the Universe is complex.... And as the first line in the introduction to the Book of the Law states - "This book explains the Universe..."

Thelema solves many of the paradoxs of Philosophy - so a basic undertanding of Western and Eastern philosophical thought is useful.
But Mindmaster is right - its not a religion suitable for the lazy.

I find Crowley very easy to read - and I certainly don't have a PhD.
It took me a while to learn the qabala... but I got there and I love it study of the Thoth Tarot helps a lot with this.
If you do find Crowley's writing difficult however - the works of Lon Milo DuQuette go a very long way to simplifying his ideas.
The Magick of Aleister Crowley; Chicken Qabala and Undertanding the Thoth Tarot
are the 3 best Lon Milo DuQuette books on Thelema and Crowley.

The Book of the Law is not meant to be understood - and anyone who tries to explain its meaning to you should know better.
It's a short book - but every time I read it something new appears to me. Even Crowley himself wasn't sure what a lot of it meant.... so don't be put off reading it - you don't need a PhD in ANYTHING to understand Thelema because it really is a very very simple ideology.

I think I agree Satanism is compatible with Thelema because Satanists are Atheists and so are Thelemites. Thelema is a bit more serious than Satanism though. We actually do stuff

 

[1137]

I sense arrogance in that response. Crowley's writings are very difficult to understand without pure dedication, and in the end the wise man realizes it's just another religion.

 

[Octavia156]

I sense arrogance in that response. Crowley's writings are very difficult to understand without pure dedication, and in the end the wise man realizes it's just another religion.

True. You won't get much out of it if you are not dedicated. But that is true of everything.

It is another religion, but its also a Revolution.

That is why I think Thelema deserves a Sub-Forum in Other Revealed Religions DIR as it cannot be properly appreciated in the Left Hand Path religions DIR. You can argue it is LHP, but its also NOT LHP.

I'm gonna quote some Crowley so you can all see he is not always cryptic. This is an introduction to the Book of the Law:

"The Book announces a New Law for Mankind

It replaces the religios and moral sanctions of the past, which have everywhere been broken down, by a principle valid for each mand and woman in the world, and self-evidently indefeasible.

The spiritual Revolution announced by the Book has already taken place: hardly a country in the world where it is not openly manifest.

Innocence of the true Meaning of this new Law has led to gross anarchy. Its conscious adoption in its proper sense is the sole cure for the political, social and racial unrest which have brought about the World War, the catastrophe of Russia and the threatening attitude of China, India and Islam.

Its solution of the fundamental problems of mathematics and philosophy will establish a new epoch in History.

But it must not be supposed that so potent an instrument of Energy can be used without danger.

I summon, therefore, by the power and authroity invested in me, every great spirit and mind now on this planet incarnate to take effective hold of the transcendental force and apply it to the advancement of the human race."
- AC (1925)

 

[Octavia156]

Another example of pure clarity - explaining the symbolic meaning of the 3 principle Gods Nuit, Hadit and Ra Hoor Kuit.
Nothing difficult to understand here, is there?

II
The Universe
​

This Book explains the Universe.
The elements are Nuit— Space— that is, the total of possibilities of every kind— and Hadit, any point which has experience of these possibilities. (This idea is for literary convenience symbolized by the Egyptian Goddess Nuit, a woman bending over like the Arch of the Night Sky. Hadit is symbolized as a Winged Globe at the heart of Nuit.)
Every event is a uniting of some one monad with one of the experiences possible to it.

“Every man and every woman is a star,” that is, an aggregate of such experiences, constantly changing with each fresh event, which affects him or her either consciously or subconsciously.

Each one of us has thus an universe of his own, but it is the same universe for each one as soon as it includes all possible experience. This implies the extension of consciousness to include all other consciousness.

In our present stage, the object that you see is never the same as the one that I see; we infer that it is the same because your experience tallies with mine on so many points that the actual differences of our observation are negligible. For instance, if a friend is walking between us, you see only his left side, I his right; but we agree that it is the same man, although we may differ not only as to what we may see of his body but as to what we know of his qualities. This conviction of identity grows stronger as we see him more often and get to know him better. Yet all the time neither of us can know anything of him at all beyond the total impression made on our respective minds.
The above is an extremely crude attempt to explain a system which reconciles all existing schools of philosophy.

 

[Octavia156]

Couple more examples and I will stop:

II
The Law of Thelema*
​

This Book lays down a simple Code of Conduct.
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”
“Love is the law, love under will.”
“There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.”

This means that each of us stars is to move on our true orbit, as marked out by the nature of our position, the law of our growth, the impulse of our past experiences. All events are equally lawful— and every one necessary, in the long run— for all of us, in theory; but in practice, only one act is lawful for each one of us at any given moment. Therefore Duty consists in determining to experience the right event from one moment of consciousness to another.

Each action or motion is an act of love, the uniting with one or another part of “Nuit”; each such act must be “under will,” chosen so as to fulfil and not to thwart the true nature of the being concerned.
The technical methods of achieving this are to be studied in Magick, or acquired by personal instruction from the Master Therion and his appointed assistants.


* Thelema is the Greek for Will, and has the same numerical value as Agape, the Greek for Love.

 

[Octavia156]

IV
The New Aeon
​

The third chapter of the Book is difficult to understand, and may be very repugnant to many people born before the date of the book (April, 1904).
It tells us the characteristics of the Period on which we are now entered. Superficially, they appear appalling. We see some of them already with terrifying clarity. But fear not!
It explains that certain vast “stars” (or aggregates of experience) may be described as Gods. One of these is in charge of the destinies of this planet for periods of 2,000 years.* In the history of the world, as far as we know accurately, are three such Gods: Isis, the mother, when the Universe was conceived as simple nourishment drawn directly from her; this period is marked by matriarchal government.
Next, beginning 500 B.C., Osiris, the father, when the Universe was imagined as catastrophic, love, death, resurrection, as the method by which experience was built up; this corresponds to patriarchal systems.
Now, Horus, the child, in which we come to perceive events as a continual growth partaking in its elements of both these methods, and not to be overcome by circumstance. This present period involves the recognition of the individual as the unit of society.
We realize ourselves as explained in the first paragraphs of this essay. Every event, including death, is only one more accretion to our experience, freely willed by ourselves from the beginning and therefore also predestined.
This “God,” Horus, has a technical title: Heru-Ra-Ha, a combination of twin gods, Ra-Hoor-Khuit and Hoor-Paar-Kraat. The meaning of this doctrine must be studied in Magick. (He is symbolized as a Hawk-Headed God enthroned.)
He rules the present period of 2,000 years, beginning in 1904. Everywhere his government is taking root. Observe for yourselves the decay of the sense of sin, the growth of innocence and irresponsibility, the strange modifications of the reproductive instinct with a tendency to become bisexual or epicene, the childlike confidence in progress combined with nightmare fear of catastrophe, against which we are yet half unwilling to take precautions.
Consider the outcrop of dictatorships, only possible when moral growth is in its earliest stages, and the prevalence of infantile cults like Communism, Fascism, Pacifism, Health Crazes, Occultism in nearly all its forms, religions sentimentalised to the point of practical extinction.
Consider the popularity of the cinema, the wireless, the football pools and guessing competitions, all devices for soothing fractious infants, no seed of purpose in them.
Consider sport, the babyish enthusiasms and rages which it excites, whole nations disturbed by disputes between boys.
Consider war, the atrocities which occur daily and leave us unmoved and hardly worried.
We are children.
How this new Aeon of Horus will develop, how the Child will grow up, these are for us to determine, growing up ourselves in the way of the Law of Thelema under the enlightened guidance of the Master Therion.
* The moment of change from one period to another is technically called The Equinox of the Gods.

V
The Next Step
​

Democracy dodders.
Ferocious Fascism, cackling Communism, equally frauds, cavort crazily all over the globe.
They are hemming us in.
They are abortive births of the Child, the New Aeon of Horus.
Liberty stirs once more in the womb of Time.
Evolution makes its changes by anti-Socialistic ways. The “abnormal” man who foresees the trend of the times and adapts circumstance intelligently, is laughed at, persecuted, often destroyed by the herd; but he and his heirs, when the crisis comes, are survivors.
Above us today hangs a danger never yet paralleled in history. We suppress the individual in more and more ways. We think in terms of the herd. War no longer kills soldiers; it kills all indiscriminately. Every new measure of the most democratic and autocratic govenments is Communistic in essence. It is always restriction. We are all treated as imbecile children. Dora, the Shops Act, the Motoring Laws, Sunday suffocation, the Censorship— they won’t trust us to cross the roads at will.
Fascism is like Communism, and dishonest into the bargain. The dictators suppress all art, literature, theatre, music, news, that does not meet their requirements; yet the world only moves by the light of genius. The herd will be destroyed in mass.
The establishment of the Law of Thelema is the only way to preserve individual liberty and to assure the future of the race.
In the words of the famous paradox of the Comte de Fénix— The absolute rule of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will.
All men and women are invited to cooperate with the Master Therion in this, the Great Work.




I think if you read these few examples you will see clearly you don't need a degree or a PhD to understand any of Crowleys ideas.

 

[1137]

Very nice.

 

[Mindmaster]

There really is much more going on than that. Those are merely the most immediately accessible nuggets. I'm not being critical mind you, but most of it isn't this way... It's just more of something you study of a great deal of time. The core of philosophy is simple as it is in nearly all other things.

Personally, the only reason I never walked further down that path is I find most of it very extraneous. I see no need of long dead symbolism for what is simply conveyed, nor do I see any need for the Book of the Law for information which I largely feel most of the human race already accepts and tries to place in practice. Maybe it is just my aversion to divine names and all similar silly-putty or stating things that are blatantly obvious.

If you find value here it is as good a path as any... Whatever keeps you happy!

 

[1137]

I second that in ways. Why be so commited to a path as Thelema requires when you can sum it up in a couple sentences and then start your personal customization?

 

[Octavia156]

I second that in ways. Why be so commited to a path as Thelema requires when you can sum it up in a couple sentences and then start your personal customization?

Can you explain what you mean by this?

In terms of commitment - its like the saying you get out what you put in... i've never enjoyed half arsed attempts at spirituality or window shopping for Truth.
When I found the system that fitted my experience and adhered to my common sense I grabbed on and tried to get as much of it as I could.

They say all roads lead to Rome... but you have to pick a road and start walking!

If I didn't have to work, I'd happily read Crowley and practise his rituals all day - he makes me laugh and the rituals make me buzz

 

[Octavia156]

There really is much more going on than that. Those are merely the most immediately accessible nuggets. I'm not being critical mind you, but most of it isn't this way... It's just more of something you study of a great deal of time. The core of philosophy is simple as it is in nearly all other things.

Personally, the only reason I never walked further down that path is I find most of it very extraneous. I see no need of long dead symbolism for what is simply conveyed, nor do I see any need for the Book of the Law for information which I largely feel most of the human race already accepts and tries to place in practice. Maybe it is just my aversion to divine names and all similar silly-putty or stating things that are blatantly obvious.

If you find value here it is as good a path as any... Whatever keeps you happy!

Thanks

I agree there is a lot of extraneous activities to be getting on with but as you say, donning robes and learning complex rituals its either your cup of tea or it isn't.

However I firmly re-iterate the extraneous stuff - is extraneous - i.e. is not necessary to be a Thelemite - simply understanding and accepting the basic stuff I posted is all that is needed.

I can understand that God names will put some modern people off.
Its like when people join OTO and come to their first Gnostic Mass - the outwardly churchiness of it puts some people right off! (or otherwise they have an adversion to bare naked ladies....)

 

[1137]

I mean I'm likely as dedicated to my path as you are to yours, but it's evolving in a personal way with customized symbolism in stuff. As opposed to spending that dedicated time learning an mastering someone else's symbolism and trying to live up to their standard. But as you said Thelema is not LHP.

 

[Octavia156]

A new DIR has opened for Discussion of Thelema and related topics

Thelema DIR - Religious Education Forum

Hope you find it useful

 

[IAO131]

Wan't sure where to put this thread, so I'm putting it here in the LHP DIR.

A.) What is the core philosophy? If you are a practitioner, how has it applied to your life?

The core philosophy is "Do what thou wilt." This means to find your True Will - not your passing wishes, whims, desires, etc. but your true Nature and Motion - and to do it... and nothing else. This is applied in many ways. Morally, it shows that nothing is inherently or absolutely good or bad except insofar as it facilitates or inhibits one's True Nature, the expression of one's full potential. For other people, it means they have the right to do their Will and I can't judge whether what they are doing (or not) is Right or Wrong for them; it is a radical form of acceptance and tolerance... but also tolerant insofar as it doesn't inhibit my own Will.

B.) Is it theistic or non-theistic?

It is not theistic in the sense of believing in the Abrahamic Man-in-the-sky but there is a conception of God. "Every man and every woman is a star" which means that not only is everyone part of the "Body of God" but the Ultimate God Itself, much like the conception in Hinduism of Atman (the Supreme Self) being one with Brahman (the boundless Godhead).

C.) What are some of its biggest misconceptions?

That "Do what thou wilt" means do whatever you want. While it grants this degree of freedom insofar as you can't say any one thing or another is inherently Wrong or Bad, Do what thou wilt is also the strictest possible bond because "Thou hast no right but to do thy will." That is, one has the right and duty to find one's Will, do it, and do nothing else. That requires an immense amount of self-discipline.

D.) Can one be a Thelemite and follow another path? Like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc?

In certain ways, sure, but - in my opinion - one is not a Thelemite if you don't accept the fundamental Law of "Do what thou wilt" at the base of things. I incorporate ideas from Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism into my ideology & practice but I am, at the bottom of it, a Thelemite that believes in Do what thou wilt. There is Truth in all religions and philosophies, but Thelema binds them all to the one central principle of True Will whose mode of action/expression is Love or Union.

Hope that's helpful.

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