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Question to Christians: is Jesus Yahweh?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sorta.
I don't believe that, no.
Yahweh\YHWH is the name of God and a number of bible verses identify Jesus as being God's son, not God himself.
For example, in John 20:17 Jesus says "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God". John 23:31 reinforces that Jesus is God's son and not God himself "But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name".
Yahweh\YHWH is the name of God and a number of bible verses identify Jesus as being God's son, not God himself.
For example, in John 20:17 Jesus says "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God". John 23:31 reinforces that Jesus is God's son and not God himself "But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name".
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
That's a wide spread belief, but I prefer to base my beliefs on what the bible says and not what others think. It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus and God are two different entities.
Think about this: you share about 50% of you DNA with your father, so you can say you're genetically close, cut of the same cloth, etc, but it doesn't matter how much you might look like him and how much you might have in common, you and you father will always be two different people.
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
In my understanding christians who believe in the trinity do believe the Father, Jesus and Holy spirit is different persons. But they believe also that Jesus and the Holy spirit share the same Being as the Father.
What you describe is modalism. Modalism believe that the Father, Jesus and Holy spirit is not three persons, but only one person who has manifested himself to humans in three different ways. So modalism is the belief that God is one person and only one Being who manifested himself in three different ways
Psalm23
Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe this.
I'm confused. How can people believe that the Father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are different persons and at the same time also believe that Jesus and the Holy spirit share the same Being as the Father? How does that work?
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
The difference between me and my mother:
My mother and me is different persons and at the same we are two different beings
But the different in the trinity is:
The Father, Jesus, Holy spirit is different persons but at the same time they are only one Being. The three persons of God share one Being
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Psalm23
Well-Known Member
Many Protestant churches profess belief in the Trinity. Sometimes people have tried explaining Trinity by using water and saying there is ice, liquid and vapor but that sounds like Modalism.
Whether one believes the Trinity or Modalism, both these are hard to understand in context of certain verses in the Bible.
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Yes the trinity is not easy to understand
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
In the theology of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity (bearing in mind that 99% of Christians adhere to the Nicene Creed), the answer would be "yes".
Jesus is understood to be the incarnation of the God of Abraham, the biblical creator who spoke through the prophets of the Tanakh and whose proper name (the Tetragrammaton) was revealed as YHWH to Moses on Mount Sinai, according to the account in Exodus.
An established exegetical paradigm can be seen in a number of verses in the New Testament, whereby the sacred author quotes or alludes to something in the Tanakh which originally referred to YHWH, and instead applies it to Jesus.
A great example of this practice is from Hebrews 1:10-12, which quotes Psalm 102:25-27.
The original text is a hymn addressed to YHWH (Adonai Elohim, the Lord God: "But you, O Lord [YHWH] are enthroned forever" [verse 12]) but the New Testament writer transposes it directly onto Jesus, and reads it as being about his eternal role as creator of the universe:
"8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like clothing;
12 like a cloak you will roll them up,
and like clothing they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will never end.”"
(Hebrews 1: 8-12)
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like clothing;
12 like a cloak you will roll them up,
and like clothing they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will never end.”"
(Hebrews 1: 8-12)
In this way, a passage clearly and indisputably about YHWH (the Lord) in the original Hebrew Psalm, has been applied to Jesus, the incarnation of the 'Wisdom/Word' of God, whom the text describes as having pre-existed with the Father before the creation of the World, in the exact same terms as God (as "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature" (Hebrews 1:3).
This is a sacred question, so there will be differing opinions about it depending upon whom you speak with, what age they are and so on. Another question is "Who or what is Yahweh?"
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Yes that true. Most christians in this world believe in the trinity, but some christians is non-trinitarian.
Jehovas witnessess believe Jesus was not God. They believe Jesus was only the son of God, and that Jesus was the archangel Michael before he was born on earth.
And Oneness pentecostal believe God is only one person manifested in three different ways. They believe the Father, Jesus and Holy spirit is only three different ways God is communicating with the world
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Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Yahweh is God. The one God who created the universe/universes. That is my belief.
And i believe God is only one person. I do not believe in the trinity
Then for you Jesus is going to be a man, perhaps miraculously born not of a human father, perhaps perfected upon his death, the first among many brothers. This is what comes with believing that Yahweh is God and that there is no Trinity and also that Jesus is the son of God. These three choices lead to a particular conclusion, so beginning with that starting point you compel the scripture to mean certain things. There are other starting points. Here's one I'm randomly thinking up on the fly which I do not believe but put forward as an example:
Suppose we presume Jesus is actually Adam reincarnated, that Eve (the mother of all the living) dies and becomes the Holy Spirit and that Yahweh is God. Sounds weird right? In this case it would mean Jesus were not Yahweh, but the point I wish to make is it compels a set of scripture solutions that can seem consistent....like an algebra solution. It creates a system of scriptures, a systematic theological system that has answers to many questions. It may have flaws, however it will have many consistencies once cleverly worked out, because it is a word system. I think there are many such possible systems that it demonstrates that scripture is not cinch to study. The canon is incomplete or insufficient to draw conclusions without extra information.
It might be interesting to draw up a list of terms in scripture for which the definitions are interpolated. Some of them are extremely important: worship, prayer, holy, righteous, salvation....
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
I don't know about christians who believe that. Is your point that the scripture is not to be trusted? Why do you believe that?
It would be like trusting half of a bridge. Our canon is limited, not a complete bridge. Its something. I think its not containing all information needed to read itself, and I think it tells us to reach out and use whatever we find.
- I know of a scripture which says we can't tell where the spirit comes from or where it is going. John 3
- I know not of any scripture that says to trust this particular canon that we have exclusively, but I still think about this canon and use it. Why? Because its useful, and I'm familiar with it.
- I know of a scripture in our canon in which Jesus tells his disciples that he will not tell teach them everything they need to know. Another says no number of books could contain the things he did. How then can the canon be all we need?
- I think that Christians always rely on definitions to define what the scriptures say, even you. I know of none who does not. Those definitions come from not scripture but interpolations from scriptures or from teachers, pastors, friends, movies, books, History, culture, things heard and so on. They don't come from scripture all by itself. I give as an example the word 'Worship'. There's no definition in scripture. You can try to interpolate it, but you're in the end going to have to think and discern what it is. Most people learn what worship is by doing what other people do. You may have to look in a dictionary, an encyclopedia or ask someone etc.