Question regarding free will

[The Transcended Omniverse]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

 

[Skwim]

What do you consider the soul to be? What's its construction and what does it do?

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[The Transcended Omniverse]

What do you consider the soul to be? What's its construction and what does it do?

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I'm not sure. That is why I am asking others here.

 

[Skwim]

Then let me just put this on the table: When it comes to free will there is the necessary presumption that any choice that was made could have been different. So, if the soul has a free will it would be able to have chosen to do differently than what it did. Trouble is, free will doesn't exist., which applies to any kind of logical being one cares to imagine.

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[lostwanderingsoul]

In the book of Genesis it tells how God made man and breathed life into him. It says that the man became a living soul. Not that a soul was added but that the body made of clay BECAME a soul. The same word that is translated as "soul" can also be translated as creature or beast or body. So man IS a soul not has a soul. God gives man freewill to make decisions. Just like when the teacher turns her back, the students can do the right thing or they can talk or throw spitballs or otherwise do the wrong thing. That is free will. God has turned His back and man can choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing.

 

[Skwim]

In the book of Genesis it tells how God made man and breathed life into him. It says that the man became a living soul. Not that a soul was added but that the body made of clay BECAME a soul. The same word that is translated as "soul" can also be translated as creature or beast or body. So man IS a soul not has a soul.

Seems the Bible has other ideas

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 16:26
What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
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All verses that distinguish the soul from the body or person-hood itself.

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[The Transcended Omniverse]

Then let me just put this on the table: When it comes to free will there is the necessary presumption that any choice that was made could have been different. So, if the soul has a free will it would be able to have chosen to do differently than what it did. Trouble is, free will doesn't exist., which applies to any kind of logical being one cares to imagine.

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But where I am getting at is how would that work in terms of science? If we do have souls that have free will, then what scientific explanation would there be for how that works?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

"It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines."

That is a board over generalization. They do not all support hard determinism. Some argue that the nature of cause and effect allows for fee will, while others argue that cognitive processes of sufficient sophistication (like the human brain) will have free will.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

But where I am getting at is how would that work in terms of science? If we do have souls that have free will, then what scientific explanation would there be for how that works?

From a purely scientific stand point: Arguing a lack of free will based on a proceeding chain of cause and effect (aka hard determinism) is actually an unfalsifiable claim, and therefore not scientific.

 

[idav]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

Free will is having an aspect of god which is timeless and non-deterministic in nature.

 

[Willamena]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

As long as there's a "you" to ask questions, make demands, and appropriate answers, there is free will.

 

[Stevicus]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

I don't know that I have a "soul" of any kind. Assuming that such a thing exists and that it will continue to exist even after my body dies, then at least while I'm alive, my "soul" is imprisoned inside a biological organism. The "soul" has no free will to leave and is at the mercy of whatever biological and physical processes the body goes through. The "soul" will experience all the hunger, pain, fatigue, stress, emotion, and everything else the body goes through. This would imply that the "soul" is under duress, and a choice made under duress isn't really a true reflection of someone's "free will."

I don't think that makes us robots, though. We do have some ability to make choices within the parameters of human biology and physical laws. But how do we make choices? Some process goes on in our brains, but how reliable is our brain?

Why do I forget the things I want to remember, yet remember the things I want to forget? Is that my "free will" in action?

 

[Skwim]

But where I am getting at is how would that work in terms of science? If we do have souls that have free will, then what scientific explanation would there be for how that works?

Souls are a religious concept, like spirits and gods; therefore, science has nothing to say about them. Nothing at all. Likewise, free will and determinism are philosophical concepts, on which science is also silent.

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[psychoslice]

For me there is no free will and no soul, there is just us, and we are at the mercy of the body, the outside world, we do only have a small piece of free will, but very limited.

 

[George-ananda]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

I'll give a rather unexpected answer from my Hindu pantheistic perspective. God alone has free will. And our core is that God.

 

[Tabu]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

The Soul decides what to do , otherwise why would it face the consequences?

 

[Tabu]

I'm not sure. That is why I am asking others here.

BrahmaKumari belief is that the Soul constitutes of 3 faculties
Mann (Mind) : The ability to think ,wish or will.
Buddhi ( Intellect ) : The ability to judge , understand and investigate.
Sanskaar ( Values ) : The ability to retain impressions from past experiences in the form of attitudes , moods and habits.
It is these abilities which distinguish one man from another and determine the mental and moral state of a person.
The body is an assemblage of various instruments in the form of organs , that are controlled and used by the soul , through the brain.
The Soul is a tiny star , an infinitesimal point of eternal light , the Conscious energy, which sits in the hypothalamus ( center of the forehead) , from where it controls the body.
The Soul in its purest is most efficient and happy , the Soul when it becomes impure is least efficient and unhappy . It is the Soul which experience happiness and sorrow , pleasure or pain.

 

[Robert Vincelette]

I think I can help here. Science does not conclude that at the scale of individual actions of electrons in the brain manifesting themselves as our consciousness is determined by the forces and histories of position and momenta of the atoms and their electrons. It was determined early in the 20th Century that these actions are governed by probability and not cause and effect that we see at the macroscopic scale. If you know what section of an electron's orbit is considered in a one-electron atom, you can calculate the integral of the probability density from the Schrodinger wave function of the orbiting electron and ins complex conjugate. The limits of integration determine that probability that at any given time something is in that volume it will react with the electron and cause the electron to change state as it does in any chemical reaction. Heisenberg indeterminacy establishes that the electron has no unique orbital position because the momentum of the electron can be specified exactly. Furthermore for the electron to be deterministic but unknown where it is in its orbit, that is, orbiting the nucleus like the moon orbiting the earth, it would make the orbital path into a loop antenna with the alternating current causing it to radiate out its energy which would cause the electron to slow down in its orbit and spiral into the nucleus. There are several other details that further make the electron a sort of ring (see pictures in any quantum mechanics text) with direct current forming the magnetic fields they form. There is the law of symmetry that this indeterminacy that makes the actions of electrons true when we go from the steady state Schrodinger equation to time dependent perturbation theory.
So this indeterminacy of of exactly what electrons will do cannot be resolved by any physical mechanics. Thus, this freedom from absolute constraint is a partial free will that is an integral part of our consciousness.
Keep in mind that this only disproves determinism or that we are classical machines. It does not prove what a "soul" is, but it denies us the power to rule it in or out.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How do we distinguish "free will" from other types of will? Or, do we?

 

[Skwim]

I think I can help here. Science does not conclude that at the scale of individual actions of electrons in the brain manifesting themselves as our consciousness is determined by the forces and histories of position and momenta of the atoms and their electrons.

Might want to rephrase this. "At the scale of" and "is determined by" don't comport.

It was determined early in the 20th Century that these actions are governed by probability and not cause and effect that we see at the macroscopic scale.

Not "governed by," but "identified in part by their" probability. Probability only expresses our limited ability to identify with precision.

Heisenberg indeterminacy establishes that the electron has no unique orbital position because the momentum of the electron can be specified exactly.

Not at all. Neither momentum nor position can ever be specified exactly. All his Indeterminacy Principle establishes is that we cannot measure the position and the momentum of a particle with absolute precision, and at the same time. The more accurately we know one of these, the less accurately we can know the other.

Keep in mind that this only disproves determinism or that we are classical machines. It does not prove what a "soul" is, but it denies us the power to rule it in or out.

Doesn't disprove determinism at all. All it does is recognize the inability to pinpoint the nature of a specific state---probability is as close as one can get. Not that the state doesn't exist.

And as far as such indeterminacy having any effect on the quantum state of the brain, which is what you appear to be driving at, let me quote Mark Tegmark.

"The main argument against the quantum mind proposition is that quantum states in the brain would decohere before they reached a spatial or temporal scale, at which they could be useful for neural processing. Michael Price, for example, says that quantum effects rarely or never affect human decisions and that classical physics determines the behaviour of neurons."
Source: Wikipedia

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