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Featured Question for jehovah's witness

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "Sheol" is where the dead sleep, awaiting the resurrection. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) It is Jesus who tells us about raising 'both the righteous and the unrighteous' from their graves. In order to come out of their graves, they must still all be in them.

    John 5:28-29...."Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

    God remembers every one of them.

    Matthew 10:29-31...Jesus said.....
    "Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So have no fear; you are worth more than many sparrows."
     
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  2. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Be very much aware of the fact that the New World Translation of the Bible is seriously flawed. It has hundreds of instances where the original Koine Greek texts have been purposely mistranslated to promote the rather unique belief structure of the JW's.

    However, many times, as here, JW's can give solid advice.

    Whenever they quote from their Bible, it must be checked against an accurate translation, done by Biblical scholars who actually are extremely familiar with the original texts and are actually trained in Hebrew and Koine Greek.,
    nd understand Hebrew and Koine Greek.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I like how you say, " cease to exist " in connection to being in sheol which is the grave for the sleeping dead.
    Since the 'dead know nothing ' as per Ecclesiastes 9:5 then they are No longer alive so they cease to exist.
    In other words, without the Resurrection there would be No hope.- Acts 24:15
    Because of the Resurrection there is hope of existing again - John 5:28-29
    So, do Not wonder, do Not marvel because the hour, the time, is coming when the dead will be alive again.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find that Psalms 139:7 talks of God's spirit ( Psalms 104:30)
    ( any thoughts about Amos 9:1-2 and Obadiah 1:4 )
    Thus, Psalms 139:8 lets us know God's holy spirit is 'never beyond reach' - Job 26:6; Psalms 16:9-10
    Never beyond His reach is what will make the resurrection possible - John 5:28-29.

    Isaiah 38 is talking about King Hezekiah.- Isaiah 38:17-19
    The 'pit 'is talked about at Psalms 28:1; Psalms 30:3; Psalms 86:13; Psalms 88:5 and Jonah 2:6
    Gehenna is the word used to stand for 'destruction' as the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
    The word Gehenna (which KJV translated as hellfire ) is Not used in connection to the above verses.
     
  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Gehenna was the place where the Israelites had a fire burning 24/7 to burn up, destroy, whatever was unwanted. Fire was the method, total destruction was the result
     
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  6. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    And this is exactly what the final fire of hell will do. Destroy. No one will be tortured forever in fire. Fire destroys and the wicked will be destroyed. Does anyone throw garbage in a fire to punish it? God's fire will destroy.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You know, I have heard this many times, but can you give me some examples of these serious flaws....and mistranslations.....I have never been able to find them. :shrug: I'd like to check them for myself.

    Thank you....we try. :)

    Those who published the NWT did all that actually. I have fact checked all sorts of original language words with Strongs Concordance and checked many translation on BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

    Not all scholars think the NWT is inaccurate.....

    "Some linguists have examined modern Bible translations—including the New World Translation—for examples of inaccuracy and bias. One such scholar is Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States. In 2003 he published a 200-page study of nine of “the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world.”* His study examined several passages of Scripture that are controversial, for that is where “bias is most likely to interfere with translation.” For each passage, he compared the Greek text with the renderings of each English translation, and he looked for biased attempts to change the meaning. What is his assessment?

    BeDuhn points out that the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation (NW) are due to religious bias on the part of its translators. However, he states: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation.” While BeDuhn disagrees with certain renderings of the New World Translation, he says that this version “emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” He calls it a “remarkably good” translation."


    Footnotes: How the Bible Came to Us — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    DeDuhn's biggest criticism of the NWT was the use of Jehovah's name in the NT. (He had no problem with it in the OT.) We replaced God's name back into OT scripture where it was quoted in the NT. It was in there in the original text, but had been removed and replaced with the title, "Kyrios".(Lord) We believe that God's name belongs in his own book.
     
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  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    For a beginning, 237 times the you added a name never used in the Koine Greek NT original texts, Jehovah. I have researched this exhaustively. It was never used, even in OT quotations it was never used. So, if the original texts were in error in these 237 places, where else are they in error ? This is degradation of the accuracy of the original sources.

    The translators of the NWT, who made an effort to be anonymous, were not trained Biblical scholars. Nor were they trained in Koine Greek, the language the NT was written in. The closest was some undergraduate classes one had in Classical Greek, not the same

    Then, there are the more subtle changes made in both the OT and NT to verses that imply the trinity, or, directly call Christ, God. These are manipulated to change their original meaning.

    I have had the great pleasure of studying with some JW friends regularly for years. These are detailed serious deep studies. I am the hard nut they want to crack. They even bring beginners in the door to door ministry to see what they might run into someday.

    I have great respect for them, and I think they have respect for me.

    Nevertheless, truth is truth, and the JW organization has embraced much error
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Then my brothers may have shown you these....

    [​IMG]

    Apparently the earliest Greek manuscripts do contain the Hebrew tetragrammaton in the Greek text.

    A5 The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    No man was ever given permission to remove the divine name from God's own book. And when the NT writers quoted the OT scriptures and God's name was there in the original text, then we restored it back where it clearly belonged.

    "Jehovah" is a translation of the tetragrammaton and we prefer this to the transliteration "Yahweh" because a translation retains the meaning of the name, whereas a transliteration merely tries to mimic the sound of it.

    In Exodus 3:13-15 Jehovah clearly stated that his name was to be retained for all generations to come....forever.

    In the Jewish Tanach the tetragrammaton appears in the written Hebrew but not in the English translation, so its easy to see where the divine name was used in the original Hebrew. That is why we are confident that it is used appropriately in our NWT.

    Have you looked up these....probably if you've had in depth discussions.
    A1 Principles of Bible Translation — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
    Loyally Upholding God’s Inspired Word — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    In my own very careful research, I have found the opposite to be true.

    When one considers that errors crept into the Christian faith in the early centuries, then in those cases where there appears to be discrepancy, I found that the NWT actually corrected a long standing translation error. Don't forget that those who translated the Bible in the modern era, were all trinitarians, so the bias was already in place IMO.

    You are training our up and coming ministers eh? :D Its people such as yourself that help us confirm our convictions by giving us grounds for deeper research. I personally love research and the internet has facilitated this in recent years like at no other time. Information is available at the click of a button...but then God said through his prophet Daniel that "the time of the end" would see much knowledge released and understanding given by God's spirit. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

    That is so good to hear. :) There is no reason to lose respect just because you disagree.
    Its an emotive topic though so I understand that for many, there is a lot riding on them being right.

    In my studies, I see the errors with Christendom were introduced way before the last days began.....so to me JW's clarified the whole Bible and gave me reasons for everything. They identified the errors that had crept in centuries ago but which were held dear by so many that they could not let them go.

    My former church taught me nothing about God's Kingdom or the reason for Christ's sacrifice.....and they never answered my questions in any satisfying way. I thank JW's for teaching me the truth. I have been an avid Bible student for 46 years now and have never regretted my decision to leave what I see as a corrupted form of Christianity splintered into literally thousands of factions, when Christ taught us only one truth.(1 Corinthians 1:10) How will Jesus judge all those disunited Christians? (Matthew 7:21-23) :(

    I wish you well and thank you for being a good sounding board.
     
    #29 Deeje, Mar 3, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    The point is, the original Greek texts were not in error. They were written long before any errors in the faith occurred.

    Yes, I am familiar with the three texts above. They are in the Cairo museum, as there is a list of all the earliest texts, when and where they were found and their current location. I have yet to get a third party translation of them, to confirm what you folk say are their translation.

    There is much to admire about your organization and people, and I do !

    Something you may want to check out for fun. My formal training and foundation theology was in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I left them when I discovered the true Gospel, and the errors I thought were Gospel.

    The founder of your denomination, Russell, was part of an early group who founded the SDA Church.

    That is why you have some beliefs in common with Adventists, e.g. soul sleep.

    He left over the issue of the Trinity, and years later began the Bible Students, AKA JW´s

    Peace
     
  11. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    One other point. The Septuagint translation of the OT at least many of them did not use the tetragrammaton, nor a space or a dot or Gods name, the used Lord. Based on the fact that this would have been the Torah the Apostles used, their quotations are accurate in the Greek
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, we appreciate that. The Septuagint was used before Christianity was established. It is the Greek translation of the OT, produced for the benefit of Greek speaking Jews...a monumental task without todays modern technology.

    "Most of the hundreds of direct quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures that are found in the Christian Greek Scriptures are based on the Septuagint. . . .
    A group of translators started work on the Septuagint in the third century B.C.E., and the work was completed by others over a hundred years later."

    Do You Need to Learn Hebrew and Greek? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    "The early Christians were quick to make effective use of the Septuagint to prove that Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah. So effective were they that the Septuagint began to be viewed by some as a “Christian” translation. This led to its losing popularity among the Jews and resulted in several new translations being produced in Greek. One of those translations was produced by a Jewish proselyte named Aquila in the second century C.E. When describing this translation, one Bible scholar refers to a “quite unexpected feature.” Represented by ancient Hebrew characters, the divine name, Jehovah, appears throughout Aquila’s Greek translation."

    Do You Need to Learn Hebrew and Greek? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Thank you again for the kind words....we don't hear them very often....but then again, Jesus' disciples didn't hear them often either. (John 15:18-21)

    I am well aware of our foundations. It was a time of spiritual awakening and expectations ran high, but patience was needed and my brothers formed the International Bible Students Association, but with a long way to go in their return to true worship. It was a slow and deliberated process, examining every scripture and comparing them to get to the truth. Basically, what came out of Roman Catholicism was discounted first.....the trinity....immortality of the soul....and a hell of fiery torment. Protestantism had already dispensed with the adoration of Mary, and purgatory, and transubstantiation...but for some reason, had kept these other doctrines which were equally erroneous according to the Bible.

    I guess we came to a parting of the ways over interpretation and doctrine. I used to visit a few SDA's in my former location, but I haven't come across too many where I am now. They were lamenting even back then (12 years ago) that they could not keep the young ones in their church. Ours, OTOH is overflowing with beautiful young people. Even the children are active and loved members of our congregations.

    The "entertainment churches" seem to dominate in a lot of areas but because it is weak on Bible study, there is not much to hold interest unless there is a good band, a lot of emotive singing and hand waving....and even in some cases, the mumblings of an unknown language.

    This would in all probability be because of the fact that the Jewish leaders began to avoid using God's name quite some time before the first century. It became a tradition to substitute the divine name with "Adonai" because of the 3rd Commandment about "taking God's name in vain". The Jews of the period apparently were want to make frivolous oaths in God's name, which was treating it disrespectfully. To make sure that this did not happen, complete avoidance of the uttering of the divine name became the accepted tradition. Yet this fights with Exodus 3:13-15.

    From the Complete Jewish Tanach....

    "And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
    יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה
    אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:


    14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
    ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


    15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
    טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

    Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot)

    The meaning of God's name is clearly outlined here...."Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be) does not mean "I AM". It is a statement of his intentions, to be, or to become whatever was necessary to fulfill his purpose. It was not a statement of his existence.


    God's name "The Lord God" of their forefathers is identified as יְהֹוָ֞ה (Yahweh....Jehovah.) And his name was to be mentioned in every generation....the Jews did not obey their God in this command....and the divine name was all but lost.
     
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