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Question About Matthew 2:9

C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Enoch07 said:
The word star in Matthew doesn't necessarily mean a literal star in the sky, though it can, just depends.

Another figurative meaning of the word for star is angel.

So my understanding it was an angel they followed in that night sky, perhaps disguised to look like a real star even, as to not draw unwanted attention.

Yeup that's my understanding of it.
Click to expand...
Most people think that it's a legend, written decades afterwards by authors that couldn't possibly, and didn't, know what actually happened.
Those people didn't have any way of knowing about cosmology, so they didn't know better.

Your "understanding" is to just change what the Gospel says into something that you can believe. It isn't what the Bible says, but it works for you.

What's up with that?
Maybe that's how the legends grow? People realize that something that they really want to believe can't be true, so they change it into something that works for them. And then talk and write about it as though it actually is true?

That's what it looks like to me.

Can you give me a reason to find your premise more plausible than the premise that the Gospel according to Matthew contains fiction?
Tom
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
sun rise said:
For those that are not hung up on the modern definition of a star (in the sky) there are some "almost fit" possibilities plus what makes good sense to me:

The Astronomy Behind The Star Of Bethlehem

More than anything else, this shows the problems of astrological prophesy. While there isn't a single event that stands out as a clear origin to the Star of Bethlehem, there are lots of options that "kind of" fit after the fact. This is even true of the Gospel of Matthew itself. Matthew was written around 80 AD, decades after the events it describes, so the astronomical event it mentions would have been interpreted long after the Crucifixion and the rise of Christianity. Even if the author of Matthew felt the Star of Bethlehem was accurate history and not pious fiction, we'll likely never know the particular event they had in mind.
Click to expand...
And if the explanations have any credibility then it's up to Bible publishers to advise their readers of it, and not mislead them into thinking it was an actual star. And, of course, if it wasn't a true star, there goes any trustworthiness of the Bible being written by "the hand of god" or even divinely inspired.


.
 
Last edited:
Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Skwim said:
If they thought the source material intended its readers, whomever they may have been, to believe the "star" was a comet, an angel, or something other than a star, they would not have used a word that signified a star.
Click to expand...

It's not the people that translated It into English persay. It's the source material. A word can have many different meaning in Hebrew or Greek than its English counterpart. It doesn't help that the English language has evolved since the kjv was made as well.

But anyways, I've discussed this extensively with many Christian's and scholars through the years. Most of them accept that star used here could be a stand in for an angel.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
whirlingmerc said:
It would be consistent with the claim that God is sovereign over sun moon and stars
Click to expand...
You do realize, don't you, that the movement of the Sun is actually because the Earth moves. and that to stop the Earth from spinning to make the "Sun stand still" would have dire consequences on both it and all its life. But with god all things are possible; both stop the earth and prevent such consequences. What could be easier when your god. :D Of course it begs the question of all the trouble he went through to kill off nearly every living thing in Noah's time when it could be accomplished with a snap of his fingers.

.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Enoch07 said:
It's not the people that translated It into English persay. It's the source material. A word can have many different meaning in Hebrew or Greek than its English counterpart. It doesn't help that the English language has evolved since the kjv was made as well.
Click to expand...
All of which plunges the veracity and trustworthiness of the Bible into literary hell.

But anyways, I've discussed this extensively with many Christian's and scholars through the years. Most of them accept that star used here could be a stand in for an angel.
Click to expand...
Not surprising at all. Gotta explain it away somehow. :shrug:
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
You do realize, don't you, that the movement of the Sun is actually because the Earth moves. and that to stop the Earth from spinning to make the "Sun stand still" would have dire consequences on both it and all its life. But with god all things are possible; both stop the earth and prevent such consequences. What could be easier when your god. :D Of course it begs the question of all the trouble he went through to kill off nearly every living thing in Noah's time when it could be accomplished with a snap of his fingers.

.
Click to expand...

Of course you are begging the question as to whether a God who made the physical laws governing the universe could miraculously suspend them for his own purposes at unusual times

God could also bend the light without changing the motion of either

short answer

longer answer
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Deeje said:
Doesn't it make you wonder what else they have interpreted wrong? Look what pride of place that star gets at Christmas.....tell me where the Bible says to celebrate Christmas? The Jews did not celebrate birthdays, as confirmed by the fact that there are no birth dates recorded for Jesus or any other Jews. No one knows for sure when Jesus was born. They can roughly calculate but that's all.
Click to expand...
Tell me where the Bible says to drive a car or get vaccinated.

There is absolutely no reason why Christmas cannot be celebrated, if done in a Christian manner.

My kids knew exactly why the holiday was kept. They knew that Santa Claus was a representation of a man, a bishop, who excelled at gift giving to the poor. They knew that a candy cane was a shaped as a crook that bishops in those times carried.

We concentrated first on the birth of Christ, his ministry, death and resurrection. We concentrated on giving and helping those less fortunate.

We even sneaked gifts to the kids of a JW in our extended family.

Paul talks about the freedom of the Gospel, and folk keeping one day to honor God, or keeping every day. He wasn´t just talking about the sabbath, he was also talking festivals and holidays, provided their foundation is Christian.
 
Sky Rivers

Sky Rivers

Active Member
Skwim said:
Consider:

Matthew 2:1-11 (RSV)
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet:

6
‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler
who will govern my people Israel.’”

7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; 8 and he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” 9 When they had heard the king they went their way; and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; 11 and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

​
Question: In as much as Herod's temple in Jerusalem is only about 5 miles from Bethlehem

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles

b) and then stop?




* the closest star to earth, Proxima Centauri.

.
Click to expand...
Simple, it wasn’t millions of miles away. :)
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sky Rivers said:
Simple, it wasn’t millions of miles away. :)
Click to expand...

Why didn't anyone else notice this extremely weird "star"? Why did God go to so much trouble to making a fake star that everyone else ignored instead of just telling them? God does that quite often in the Bible. Your story is not consistent. An indication that it is false.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Skwim said:
Consider:

Matthew 2:1-11 (RSV)
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet:

6
‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler
who will govern my people Israel.’”

7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; 8 and he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” 9 When they had heard the king they went their way; and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; 11 and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

​
Question: In as much as Herod's temple in Jerusalem is only about 5 miles from Bethlehem

a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles

b) and then stop?




* the closest star to earth, Proxima Centauri.

.
Click to expand...
Good question.

I wonder if this is the answer?


I'm not an astronomer so I'm listening to it right now. So far, pretty interesting.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Skwim said:
Consider:
Matthew 2:1-11 (RSV)
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet.
7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; 8 and he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” 9 When they had heard the king they went their way; and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; 11 and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, ................​
Question: In as much as Herod's temple in Jerusalem is only about 5 miles from Bethlehem.
a) Exactly how could a star, which would be at least 4.22 light-years* from Earth be seen to move five miles
b) and then stop?
* the closest star to earth, Proxima Centauri..
Click to expand...

Those magi were astrologers. Astrology was involved with the so-called *star* leding them to Jesus' enemy Herod.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but I find that does Not mean they moved and took up residence in Bethlehem.
In other words, the location of the *star* is Not mentioned as to where the ' house ' was located.
By the time the magi located Jesus he was Not a babe in a manger but a child in a house - Matthew 2:11
So, Jesus as a two-year old child did Not have to be in Bethlehem, just that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
Why didn't anyone else notice this extremely weird "star"? Why did God go to so much trouble to making a fake star that everyone else ignored instead of just telling them? God does that quite often in the Bible. Your story is not consistent. An indication that it is false.
Click to expand...
To which God/god________
After all it is Satan who is the ' god ' of this world of badness according to 2 Corinthians 4:4
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Those magi were astrologers. Astrology was involved with the so-called *star* leding them to Jesus' enemy Herod.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but I find that does Not mean they moved and took up residence in Bethlehem.
In other words, the location of the *star* is Not mentioned as to where the ' house ' was located.
By the time the magi located Jesus he was Not a babe in a manger but a child in a house - Matthew 2:11
So, Jesus as a two-year old child did Not have to be in Bethlehem, just that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Click to expand...
Stars don't do that. People that believe that part of the nativity myth do not understand celestial navigation.
 
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