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Question about 12:20

TG123456

Active Member
Peace be on all.
"......It was this currency which was initially adopted as an Arab word; then near the end of the 7th century the coin became an Islamic currency bearing the name of the sovereign and a religious verse. ......"
Dirham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(already some lines given in #4 by friend Aupmanyav)


Please see how some people translated the specific verse.


George Sale: And they sold him for a mean price, for a few pence, and valued him lightly.


M. M. Pickthall: And they sold him for a low price, a number of silver coins; and they attached no value to him.



Ahmad and Samira: And they bought him with a reduced/unjust price, counted/numbered silver coins , and they were in him from the indifferent/uninterested .


T. B. Irving: They sold him for a trifling price, just a few coins which were counted out. They were quite indifferent about him,
Wa alaikum salaam, my friend.

Thank you for these translations. They are saying that Joseph was not sold for dirhams, but for a few coins or a few pennies, although the Quranic verse uses the word "dirhams".

Let's assume though that by dirham, the Quran's author just meant coins, or pennies. The problem that still remains is that there were no coins in Egypt during the time of Joseph.

There were no coins at that point anywhere in the world. Coins were not invented until the 7th century BC.

History of Coins

The history of coins extends from ancient times to the present. Coins are still widely used for monetary and other purposes. Any history of coins is going to be very incomplete, money being a central theme in human history since its invention. One could approach the history of minting technologies, the history shown by the images on coins, the history of economics, the history of coin collecting or collectors, or many other topics. A recently published history of the greatest treasures and hoards ever found is fascinating reading. Many histories have been published of the politics around the creation of a single coin, notably the crime of 1873 and its connection to silver coinage of the United States. The history of mining, and various gold and silver rushes and their associated pioneer coining efforts are also extremely interesting reading. Even something as lowly as the history of counterfeiting leads one in a thousand interesting directions. Numismatics is, by its very nature, the study of history. Coins have often been referred to as "History in Your Hands."

All histories of coins begin with their invention between 643 and 630 B.C. in Lydia. Since that time, coins have been the most universal embodiment of money. These first coins were made of electrum, a naturally occurring pale yellow mixture of gold and silver. The most famous and widely collected coins of antiquity are Roman coins and Greek coins. The Byzantine empire minted many coins, including very thin gold coins bearing the image of the Christian cross and various Byzantine emperors.


History of the Coin
 

TG123456

Active Member
Main article: Historiography of early Islam
The Islamic state and Muslims' system of government evolved through various stages.[2] The precise dates of various periods in history are more or less arbitrary. The City-state period lasted from 620s to 630s. The Imperial period lasted from 630s to 750s. The Universal period lasted from 750s to around 900s. These correspond to the early period of post-classical history. The "Decentralization" periodlasted from around 900s to the early 1500s. This correspond to the high period and late period of post-classical history. The"Fragmentation" period lasted from around 1500s to the late 1910s. The contemporary period, referred to as the National period, lasted from 1910s into the twenty-first century.



From:History of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
OK, I think you meant to say Islam started in the 7th century AD, not BC.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Wa alaikum salaam, my friend.

Thank you for these translations. They are saying that Joseph was not sold for dirhams, but for a few coins or a few pennies, although the Quranic verse uses the word "dirhams".

Let's assume though that by dirham, the Quran's author just meant coins, or pennies. The problem that still remains is that there were no coins in Egypt during the time of Joseph.

There were no coins at that point anywhere in the world. Coins were not invented until the 7th century BC.

History of Coins

The history of coins extends from ancient times to the present. Coins are still widely used for monetary and other purposes. Any history of coins is going to be very incomplete, money being a central theme in human history since its invention. One could approach the history of minting technologies, the history shown by the images on coins, the history of economics, the history of coin collecting or collectors, or many other topics. A recently published history of the greatest treasures and hoards ever found is fascinating reading. Many histories have been published of the politics around the creation of a single coin, notably the crime of 1873 and its connection to silver coinage of the United States. The history of mining, and various gold and silver rushes and their associated pioneer coining efforts are also extremely interesting reading. Even something as lowly as the history of counterfeiting leads one in a thousand interesting directions. Numismatics is, by its very nature, the study of history. Coins have often been referred to as "History in Your Hands."

All histories of coins begin with their invention between 643 and 630 B.C. in Lydia. Since that time, coins have been the most universal embodiment of money. These first coins were made of electrum, a naturally occurring pale yellow mixture of gold and silver. The most famous and widely collected coins of antiquity are Roman coins and Greek coins. The Byzantine empire minted many coins, including very thin gold coins bearing the image of the Christian cross and various Byzantine emperors.


History of the Coin

Peace be on you.
On a lighter note, see one is getting concerned about the tension (which might cause health issues) you are getting about those coins, in the times when people are saying;

1="Many modern-day scholars believe the historicity of the events in the Joseph narrative cannot be demonstrated.[11][12]"
Joseph (patriarch) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2=Moreover, and we know, these days there are many people, who think God is not present, many so called 'historians' etc belong to same class and the most of their 'unbiased' researches and findings have the same colour!



The solution: Believers should produce their own experts in various fields.

=======

Holy Quran's Chapter 12, Surah Yusuf has certain lessons of morality, spirituality, governmental ethics, success of Prophets. I believe one should have more focus on that, rather than coins or dirhams;
?=Why cannot we stay contend with the word dirham as some equivalent monetary value, coin or no-coin.
?=Why should we trust those 'archaeological findings' that Egypt or time of Joseph was not using coins. What if they were using? --- Can anyone imagine, once Dollar was being happily used in the streets of Moscow!!--- When some 'historian' will write it centuries latter, same questions will be raised then.

===
I can say about Bible, though it is not in original form, yet it talks a lot about morality and relation with God and people, people should practice its message.

and

I can say about Quran, it is not changed, so-called findings (which keep changing otherwise too) cannot be made Judge over it.
===

Let me make more clear by some examples, why does not anyone ask questions about verses:
[12:20] And there came a caravan of travellers and they sent their waterdrawer. And he let down his bucket into the well. ‘Oh, good news!’ said he, ‘Here is a youth!’ And they concealed him as a piece of merchandise, and Allah knew full well what they did.

By which mechanism boy was Ok in a well? were there any hidden niches in walls or was he sitting in buckets? What kind of buckets were used in Egypt those days, Is it proved by modern-historians....etc

If we do not ask these questions then why we are so much worried about next verse i.e.

[12:21] And they sold him for a paltry price, a few dirhems, and they were not desirous of it.
(alislam.org/quran)


Is not the verse clearly giving idea, that it was very low price, in dirhams or coins it was very low. The news is not it was low prices or it was coined-era or not, the news is lack of ethics and morals.

If one wishes to know whether dirhams or coins were present at that time, this research should be done by trustable researchers (at least 50 % of them should be fair-minded believers). In either answer, the verse will stand.


Next, another verse
[12:32] And when she heard of their crafty design, she sent for them and prepared for them a repast, and gave every one of them a knife and then said to Joseph, ‘Come forth to them.’ And when they saw him they thought much of him and cut their hands, and said, ‘Allah be glorified! This is not a human being; this is but a noble angel.’

Should not be researched what kind of knives were those?
What is their historicity?
If they existed, why these ladies cut their hands?
Was there any blood from wounds, were they treated by doctors? What kind of doctors were present at court? Which medicine were applied?
What was the menu?
so on......


I am sure my point is taken by now. Discussion should be done but I feel, it should be reasonable.

Holy Quran is divine truth, it asks to think and ponder, it provides the absolute truth::

[56:78] That this is indeed a noble Qur’an,
[56:79] In a well-preserved Book,
[56:80] Which none shall touch except those who are purified.
[56:81] It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

Good wishes.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
The Empire of Alexander the Great did not include Arabia, but it did include Persia. As you know, in the 7th century and prior to that, the Arabs were surrounded by the Sassanian and Byzantine empires. Sassanian currency, which at that time consisted of drachmas, was used by Arabs. The same is true of Byzantine currency.

According to Professor Mansour Zarra-Nezhad from Ahvaz University, Iran:

ABSTRACT
Before the appearance of Islam, dinar and dirham were the currencies in use in the Byzantine and Iran empires, respectively. Both currencies were in use in pre-Islamic Arabia and continued to be so in the Islamic state. In 74 AH the Islamic dinar and dirham were minted. Estimating their value is a matter of considerable importance to those doing research in Islamic economics. This paper estimates the value of these two currencies using two methods 'natural value' and 'purchasing power'. It finds that a dinar was worth 261 to 293 thousand riyals or USD 32.5-36.5.
A Brief History of Money in Islam and Estimating the Value of Dirham and Dinar - ResearchGate
. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_Estimating_the_Value_of_Dirham_and_Dinar [accessed Apr 16, 2015].

Lets compare the verse in the bible with the one in the quran.

Genesis 37:28
Then Midianite traders passed by. And they drew Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. They took Joseph to Egypt.

In the bible it says silver, so was it bars of silver or coins of silver or balls of silver, what kind of silver(bars,coins,balls) traders take for trade.

(12:20)
And they sold him for a reduced price - a few dirhams - and they were, concerning him, of those content with little.

In the quran it says the price was low or cheap, if the price was coins then it should be a fixed price such as 10 dirhams, 5 dirhams..etc, but since the price wasn't fixed but saying few dirhams then that is understood to be equivalent to few dirhams as the deal wasn't with a fixed coins and therefore mentioning its equivalent.
 
Last edited:

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
LOL. Hope you saved your level and the bad guys didn't beat you while I was distracting you.
A professional gamers always got that covered ;)

No problem, and thank you for your response.
You're most welcome :)

Given that "dirham" is derived from "drachma", which is a Greek word, it is pretty much certain that the Greeks were the ones who invented the drachma.
We can refer to history but you know we can take it with a grain of salt too. Scriptures are history too and historians use them sometimes. The only difference is the strength and domination of the historians that make history. It could be true that the subject dirham was derived from drachma indeed, but even then, it could be a figure of speech using it for the price worth, as it is one of the views Muslims have among many others including the ones you provided before. History is only words on papers just like scriptures are after all.

Every thing is possible :)

Actually, they just got rid of cents altogether, and now the smallest monetary unit we have is the nickel (5 cents). I think it's too bad but whatever, life goes on. :)

Hmm, interesting!

I heard of pennies too. Are they dead too?
 
Sorry your explanation doesn't make any sense since it's based on subjectivity and not facts, also the great empire of Alexander never included the Arabia and hence no reason for people of Mecca to use it as their main currency.

The people of Mecca didn't mint their own coins and would have used the currencies of the surrounding regions. Even early Islamic empire coins were based on the Persian coins of the time and featured Zoroastrian imagery alongside dedications to Allah (Muhammed was first mentioned during the reign of Abd al Malik.)

Persian and Byzantine designs were still being used for over 100 years AH though with Arabic dedications on the other side.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
The Empire of Alexander the Great did not include Arabia, but it did include Persia. As you know, in the 7th century and prior to that, the Arabs were surrounded by the Sassanian and Byzantine empires. Sassanian currency, which at that time consisted of drachmas, was used by Arabs. The same is true of Byzantine currency.

According to Professor Mansour Zarra-Nezhad from Ahvaz University, Iran:

ABSTRACT
Before the appearance of Islam, dinar and dirham were the currencies in use in the Byzantine and Iran empires, respectively. Both currencies were in use in pre-Islamic Arabia and continued to be so in the Islamic state. In 74 AH the Islamic dinar and dirham were minted. Estimating their value is a matter of considerable importance to those doing research in Islamic economics. This paper estimates the value of these two currencies using two methods 'natural value' and 'purchasing power'. It finds that a dinar was worth 261 to 293 thousand riyals or USD 32.5-36.5.
A Brief History of Money in Islam and Estimating the Value of Dirham and Dinar - ResearchGate
. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_Estimating_the_Value_of_Dirham_and_Dinar [accessed Apr 16, 2015].

I found that the origin of Dirham was Arabic and it's a compound of 2 words.

در - هم , the word هم means worries or anxiety whereas در means to bring it out, the compound means making one free of anxiety and thats what money do and there is one ancient arabic proverb which used till our days which says الدراهم مراهم which means dirhams is a soothing cream or "money is a cure" Arabic proverbs and their English equivalents. | Toumache
 

TG123456

Active Member
Peace be on you.
On a lighter note, see one is getting concerned about the tension (which might cause health issues) you are getting about those coins, in the times when people are saying;
Wa alaikum salaam.
LOL thank you for your concern, but I am in good health alhamdullilah. :)

1="Many modern-day scholars believe the historicity of the events in the Joseph narrative cannot be demonstrated.[11][12]"
Joseph (patriarch) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't think they are wrong, can you prove the historicity of the described events?

2=Moreover, and we know, these days there are many people, who think God is not present, many so called 'historians' etc belong to same class and the most of their 'unbiased' researches and findings have the same colour!
How do you know that the historians who claim that coins were invented in the 7th century BC are atheists, or in their class?

The solution: Believers should produce their own experts in various fields.

=======
Great. I'll add more about the experts later.
Holy Quran's Chapter 12, Surah Yusuf has certain lessons of morality, spirituality, governmental ethics, success of Prophets. I believe one should have more focus on that, rather than coins or dirhams;
Agreed, the lessons mentioned above are the important points. The same applies to events described throughout the Bible. However, it is also important to know if the person telling the story is sent by God (or is God), or not.
There are huge ramifications for the whole world if either Christianity or Islam is true. If Christianity is true, all who reject it go to hell for eternity. If Islam is true, all who reject it go to hell for eternity. I am going to get a little personal- I have been questioning my faith a lot- not because of the moral teachings which I find excellent and superior to anything else to be honest, but because of some things in the Bible that are errors and cannot be from God. I have been told Islam is perfect, I am trying to see if it has errors like Christianity does, or if it is perfect and from God. If Islam is indeed without errors and from God, I would have no choice but to convert. If it isn't, I don't know what I am going to do.

?=Why cannot we stay contend with the word dirham as some equivalent monetary value, coin or no-coin.
I think one major factor is the fact that scholars across the ages... including Muhammad's companions, understood the verse to mean that Joseph was sold for several coins, or dirhams.

(And they sold him), is in reference to Yusuf's brothers. They sold Yusuf for the lowest price, as indicated by Allah's statement next,


﴿دَرَهِمَ مَعْدُودَةٍ﴾


(for a few Dirhams), twenty Dirhams, according to `Abdullah bin Mas`ud. Similar was said by Ibn `Abbas, Nawf Al-Bikali, As-Suddi, Qatadah and `Atiyah Al-`Awfi, who added that they divided the Dirhams among themselves, each getting two Dirhams. Ad-Dahhak commented on Allah's statement,


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Yusuf is Rescued from the Well and sold as a Slave

Ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Masud, Qatadah were Muhammad's companions, and they believed Joseph was sold for 20 dirhams. Clearly, they believed that coins exchanged hands, and the verse itself is saying that.

?=Why should we trust those 'archaeological findings' that Egypt or time of Joseph was not using coins. What if they were using? --- Can anyone imagine, once Dollar was being happily used in the streets of Moscow!!--- When some 'historian' will write it centuries latter, same questions will be raised then.
If you can demonstrate that dirhams or even coins were around prior to the 7th century BC, in Egypt in particular, please present your evidence. I would be glad to see it.

===
I can say about Bible, though it is not in original form, yet it talks a lot about morality and relation with God and people, people should practice its message.

and

I can say about Quran, it is not changed, so-called findings (which keep changing otherwise too) cannot be made Judge over it.
===
I agree that the Bible has been changed and the Quran has it, and that there are good teachings in both. I disagree that findings should not be looked at when we explore the credibility of either of these books.

Let me make more clear by some examples, why does not anyone ask questions about verses:
[12:20] And there came a caravan of travellers and they sent their waterdrawer. And he let down his bucket into the well. ‘Oh, good news!’ said he, ‘Here is a youth!’ And they concealed him as a piece of merchandise, and Allah knew full well what they did.

By which mechanism boy was Ok in a well? were there any hidden niches in walls or was he sitting in buckets? What kind of buckets were used in Egypt those days, Is it proved by modern-historians....etc
Wells existed in the time of Joseph. If you want a better analogy, what would you say if the text claimed that Joseph was left in the trunk of a car to be picked up?
Wells existed at that time, cars did not.

If we do not ask these questions then why we are so much worried about next verse i.e.

[12:21] And they sold him for a paltry price, a few dirhems, and they were not desirous of it.
(alislam.org/quran)


Is not the verse clearly giving idea, that it was very low price, in dirhams or coins it was very low. The news is not it was low prices or it was coined-era or not, the news is lack of ethics and morals.
The reason that questions are being asked is that, unlike wells, dirhams or coins did not exist at the time of Joseph.

Had Joseph been left in the trunk of car instead of a well, the message would have been the same but the details would have indicated that the story was not true, at least in all of the details.

I agree with you that the message is what counts, but details are also not irrelevant, in particular if you are trying to figure out whether the story is true or not.

If one wishes to know whether dirhams or coins were present at that time, this research should be done by trustable researchers (at least 50 % of them should be fair-minded believers). In either answer, the verse will stand.
Show me researchers who claim there were coins in Ancient Egypt. Also, please feel free to explain how it is that Muhammad's contemporaries themselves and so many if not all tafsir writers understood this verse wrong, while those who claim that the dirhams are an allegory, got it right.
Next, another verse
[12:32] And when she heard of their crafty design, she sent for them and prepared for them a repast, and gave every one of them a knife and then said to Joseph, ‘Come forth to them.’ And when they saw him they thought much of him and cut their hands, and said, ‘Allah be glorified! This is not a human being; this is but a noble angel.’

Should not be researched what kind of knives were those?
What is their historicity?
If they existed, why these ladies cut their hands?
Was there any blood from wounds, were they treated by doctors? What kind of doctors were present at court? Which medicine were applied?
What was the menu?
so on......


I am sure my point is taken by now. Discussion should be done but I feel, it should be reasonable.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why the Quran's author claims that people used something that wasn't yet invented in their time. Knives were around already in Ancient Egypt. What would you think of the passage if in lieu of knife, it said "Katana"?

Holy Quran is divine truth, it asks to think and ponder, it provides the absolute truth::

[56:78] That this is indeed a noble Qur’an,
[56:79] In a well-preserved Book,
[56:80] Which none shall touch except those who are purified.
[56:81] It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
The Bible states that it is God breathed. Both are claims, and should be investigated I think.
Good wishes.
You also, my friend.
 

TG123456

Active Member
Lets compare the verse in the bible with the one in the quran.

Genesis 37:28
Then Midianite traders passed by. And they drew Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. They took Joseph to Egypt.

In the bible it says silver, so was it bars of silver or coins of silver or balls of silver, what kind of silver(bars,coins,balls) traders take for trade.

(12:20)
And they sold him for a reduced price - a few dirhams - and they were, concerning him, of those content with little.

In the quran it says the price was low or cheap, if the price was coins then it should be a fixed price such as 10 dirhams, 5 dirhams..etc, but since the price wasn't fixed but saying few dirhams then that is understood to be equivalent to few dirhams as the deal wasn't with a fixed coins and therefore mentioning its equivalent.
Notice that in Genesis 37:28, it states that Joseph was sold for 20 shekels of silver, not 20 shekels. Silver was used as a trade commodity at that time, but shekels were not in use.
I don't see why it would have been necessary for the Quran's author to state the number of coins that Joseph was sold for, in order for it to be clear that according to the verse he was sold for a few dirhams by his captors. This is the what the text says, and even the companions of Muhammad understood it to be saying this. You say "is understood to be equivalent to a few dirhams as the deal wasn't with fixed coins and therefore mentioning its equivalent"... if this is the case, why do all the tafsirs say he was sold for some dirhams instead of what you just did, that he was sold for an equivalent to these coins? Can you find me any tafsirs or quotations of Muhammad's companions that state what you just did- that dirhams were a comparison, not the currency actually used?
 

TG123456

Active Member
A professional gamers always got that covered ;)


You're most welcome :)


We can refer to history but you know we can take it with a grain of salt too. Scriptures are history too and historians use them sometimes. The only difference is the strength and domination of the historians that make history. It could be true that the subject dirham was derived from drachma indeed, but even then, it could be a figure of speech using it for the price worth, as it is one of the views Muslims have among many others including the ones you provided before. History is only words on papers just like scriptures are after all.

Every thing is possible :)



Hmm, interesting!

I heard of pennies too. Are they dead too?
Salaam Alaikum. 12:20 seems to be saying that Joseph was sold off for a few dirhams and if you read the interpretations of Muslim scholars, you will also see that Muhammad's own companions understood the verse that way. Unlike us, they would have learned the Quran from him and could have asked him questions.

Nice talking to you, inshAllah we'll talk more later.

PS yes, they got rid of pennies also. Pennies and cents in Canada are (were) the same thing.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Notice that in Genesis 37:28, it states that Joseph was sold for 20 shekels of silver, not 20 shekels. Silver was used as a trade commodity at that time, but shekels were not in use.
I don't see why it would have been necessary for the Quran's author to state the number of coins that Joseph was sold for, in order for it to be clear that according to the verse he was sold for a few dirhams by his captors. This is the what the text says, and even the companions of Muhammad understood it to be saying this. You say "is understood to be equivalent to a few dirhams as the deal wasn't with fixed coins and therefore mentioning its equivalent"... if this is the case, why do all the tafsirs say he was sold for some dirhams instead of what you just did, that he was sold for an equivalent to these coins? Can you find me any tafsirs or quotations of Muhammad's companions that state what you just did- that dirhams were a comparison, not the currency actually used?

Here's one hadith which says that people at that era used to trade by weight and he was sold by less than the weight of one ounce which equivalent to less than 40 dirhams.

18936 -

حدثنا ابن حميد ، قال : حدثنا سلمة ، عن ابن إسحاق ، قال : باعوه ولم يبلغ ثمنه الذي باعوه به أوقية ، وذلك أن الناس كانوا يتبايعون في ذلك الزمان بالأواقي ، فما قصر عن الأوقية فهو عدد ; يقول الله : ( وشروه بثمن بخس دراهم معدودة ) أي لم يبلغ الأوقية .
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Wa alaikum salaam.
LOL thank you for your concern, but I am in good health alhamdullilah. :)

Peace be on you. Good to hear. Thanks God.


Agreed, the lessons mentioned above are the important points. The same applies to events described throughout the Bible. However, it is also important to know if the person telling the story is sent by God (or is God), or not.There are huge ramifications for the whole world if either Christianity or Islam is true.

== The truth of a Prophet can be checked through various means; How people in time of a Prophet recognize him?....

== If latter people changed things in Bible, it does not mean Jesus (a.s.) was not right.....

== If few items are not well understood through current knowledge (which is on going process; sometimes it contradict previous findings), it does not mean Muhammad (s.a.w.) was not right....

== To us, during the evolution of religion, Jesus (a.s.) appeared at appropriate time but his message of reform was for children of Israel. Jews of the time had gone hard, he came to remind them softness. He was not son of God, he was a righteous human Prophet. His teaching was time-bound. His fatherless birth was reminder that now house of Prophethood was going to change. .He explained second comings when he said John the baptist as Elijah. He foretold about coming of Muhammad (s.a.w.).



If Christianity is true, all who reject it go to hell for eternity. If Islam is true, all who reject it go to hell for eternity.
As I said, Christianity was right.
After coming of Islam,in it is the last model of divine teaching but if its message has not reached to anyone properly, then according to Quran they should at least continue to practice their own religion with true spirit.

[2:63]Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.


The essence of all religions is same; Rights of God and rights of creation.

[42:14] He has prescribed for you the religion which He enjoined on Noah, and which We have revealed to thee, and which We enjoined on Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying, ‘Remain steadfast in obedience, and be not divided therein. Hard upon the idolaters is that to which thou callest them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns to Him.’

Islam is the full version.

[5:4] "........This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion......."

Ref: alislam.org/quran

Thus for a true seeker, there is no question of eternal Hell.

The Hell is not eternal according to Quran, it is correctional place.

The best way to find truth is to ask God directly, people have continued to pray for sometimes and they have been told by God in certain way which satisfy them.





If you can demonstrate that dirhams or even coins were around prior to the 7th century BC, in Egypt in particular, please present your evidence. I would be glad to see it.

Show me researchers who claim there were coins in Ancient Egypt. Also, please feel free to explain how it is that Muhammad's contemporaries themselves and so many if not all tafsir writers understood this verse wrong, while those who claim that the dirhams are an allegory, got it right.

QUOTE

Egyptian paper: Coins found bearing name of Joseph

The newspaper said the discovery countered claims by some historians that coins were not used for trade in Egypt at the time the Bible records Joseph and the Israelites migrated there.



Those historians have argued that trade was done by barter.

.........

But researchers told the newspaper the minting dates of the coins in the cache have been matched to the period in which Joseph was recorded to be in Egypt.

“A thorough examination revealed that the coins bore the year in which they were minted and their value, or effigies of the pharaohs [who ruled] at the time of their minting. Some of the coins are from the time when Joseph lived in Egypt, and bear his name and portrait,” said the newspaper report.


Read more at Egyptian paper: Coins found bearing name of Joseph

wwwDOTwndDOTcom/2009/09/111091/
acts-7-israel-always-rejects-god-the-1st-time-then-2nd-coming-joseph-coins-and-camel-cart-models-found-no-medicine-of-egypt-in-ot-ekklesia-kjvisms-unwilling-rephan-receive-my-spirit-martyrdom-lxx-23-638.jpg

SLIDESHOW @ coins in the time of joseph - Google Search

Also @

Archeologists find 'Joseph-era' coins in Egypt - Middle East - Jerusalem Post

Joseph Era Coins Found in Egypt - Defense/Middle East - News - Arutz Sheva

egyptian history websites joseph coins - Yahoo Search Results

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One humbly prays and hopes now there is nothing which stops you to meet the truth. As the initial followers of Prophets see his truth while things point to his truth................I would say: When the Sun is at horizon, to say it is the Sun, it is not faith. Before Sun rises, light and nature lead the inner eyes of would-be disciples and companions to recognize the truth.........There was Christian scholar Warqa bin Noufal who recognized that Muhammad (s.a.w.) was going to be the Prophet. Warqa passed away before the revelation-based claim of Prophet (s.a.w.); it is faith which sees through many curtains.

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More about Prophet Joseph (a.s.) and lessons @
The Holy Quran
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=1134&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

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Good wishes to you and your dear ones.

 
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TG123456

Active Member
Here's one hadith which says that people at that era used to trade by weight and he was sold by less than the weight of one ounce which equivalent to less than 40 dirhams.

18936 -
حدثنا ابن حميد
، قال : حدثنا سلمة ، عن ابن إسحاق ، قال : باعوه ولم يبلغ ثمنه الذي باعوه به أوقية ، وذلك أن الناس كانوا يتبايعون في ذلك الزمان بالأواقي ، فما قصر عن الأوقية فهو عدد ; يقول الله : ( وشروه بثمن بخس دراهم معدودة ) أي لم يبلغ الأوقية .
Salaam Alaikum FearGod, and thank you. Can you please give me a word for word translation of this part of the hadith? I noticed when I clicked on the link, that there is more to it. Can you please translate all of hadith 18936, and tell me which collection it is from? Thanks.
 

TG123456

Active Member
Peace be on you. Good to hear. Thanks God.




== The truth of a Prophet can be checked through various means; How people in time of a Prophet recognize him?....

== If latter people changed things in Bible, it does not mean Jesus (a.s.) was not right.....

== If few items are not well understood through current knowledge (which is on going process; sometimes it contradict previous findings), it does not mean Muhammad (s.a.w.) was not right....

== To us, during the evolution of religion, Jesus (a.s.) appeared at appropriate time but his message of reform was for children of Israel. Jews of the time had gone hard, he came to remind them softness. He was not son of God, he was a righteous human Prophet. His teaching was time-bound. His fatherless birth was reminder that now house of Prophethood was going to change. .He explained second comings when he said John the baptist as Elijah. He foretold about coming of Muhammad (s.a.w.).




As I said, Christianity was right.
After coming of Islam,in it is the last model of divine teaching but if its message has not reached to anyone properly, then according to Quran they should at least continue to practice their own religion with true spirit.

[2:63]Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.


The essence of all religions is same; Rights of God and rights of creation.

[42:14] He has prescribed for you the religion which He enjoined on Noah, and which We have revealed to thee, and which We enjoined on Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying, ‘Remain steadfast in obedience, and be not divided therein. Hard upon the idolaters is that to which thou callest them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns to Him.’

Islam is the full version.

[5:4] "........This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion......."

Ref: alislam.org/quran

Thus for a true seeker, there is no question of eternal Hell.

The Hell is not eternal according to Quran, it is correctional place.

The best way to find truth is to ask God directly, people have continued to pray for sometimes and they have been told by God in certain way which satisfy them.







QUOTE

Egyptian paper: Coins found bearing name of Joseph

The newspaper said the discovery countered claims by some historians that coins were not used for trade in Egypt at the time the Bible records Joseph and the Israelites migrated there.



Those historians have argued that trade was done by barter.

.........

But researchers told the newspaper the minting dates of the coins in the cache have been matched to the period in which Joseph was recorded to be in Egypt.

“A thorough examination revealed that the coins bore the year in which they were minted and their value, or effigies of the pharaohs [who ruled] at the time of their minting. Some of the coins are from the time when Joseph lived in Egypt, and bear his name and portrait,” said the newspaper report.


Read more at Egyptian paper: Coins found bearing name of Joseph

wwwDOTwndDOTcom/2009/09/111091/



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One humbly pray and hope now there is nothing which stops you to meet the truth.

===============================================================
More about Prophet Joseph (a.s.) and lessons @
The Holy Quran
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=1134&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

===============================================================

Good wishes to you and your dear ones.
Salaam Alaikum my friend, and thank you. I will respond to your post tomorrow evening, God willing. Take care.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The history doesn't make any sense but the quran does.

If Dirham were from Greece which is in Europe then how come that it reached and used by the Arabia and not by the Roman Empire and why not used by Persia and why not used by India and why not used by China, why it was only used in the Arabia.

If you can explain it to me with logic then i'm all ears.

Again not reading your own links.

Historically, the word "dirham" is derived from the name of a Greek coin, the Drachma (δραχμή); the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire controlled the Levant and traded with Arabia, circulating the coin there in pre-Islamic times and afterward. It was this currency which was initially adopted as an Arab word; then near the end of the 7th century the coin became an Islamic currency bearing the name of the sovereign and a religious verse. The dirham was struck in many Mediterranean countries, including Al-Andalus (Moorish Spain) and the Byzantine Empire (miliaresion), and could be used as currency in Europe between the 10th and 12th centuries, notably in areas with Viking connections, such as Viking York[4] and Dublin.

The coins with Joseph's name has been debunked. Egyptian coinage was not invented until the Late Period.

Coins in Egypt
Urging Caution: A Brief Comment on the So-Called 'Joseph Coins'
 
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