Question about 12:20

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum.

I was wondering what the Muslim posters think of this.

12:20 in the Quran states about Joseph:

And they sold him for a reduced price - a few dirhams - and they were, concerning him, of those content with little.

How could Joseph have been sold for a few dirhams? They weren't invented until the 7th century BC.

Ancient Greek coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jeager106]

Islam wasn't born until the 7th century b.c.

 

[Smart_Guy]

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله

Time to have a break from video games

Ehm..

I think it means the worth of a few dirhams; i.e. very cheap, to give a feel of how bad the situation Joseph was in. I think God wants to speak to us in a language we can understand so He used a currency well known.

When did the story take time anyways? And are we certain dirhams were originally Greek and were never used by other civilizations?

Just my 2 dirhams... I mean cents

 

[Aupmanyav]

Historically, the word "dirham" is derived from the name of a Greek coin, the Drachma (δραχμή); the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire controlled the Levant and traded with Arabia, circulating the coin there in pre-Islamic times and afterward.
The English word "dinar" is the transliteration of the Arabic دينار (dīnār), which was borrowed via the Syriac dīnarā from the Greek δηνάριον (denárion), itself from the Latin dēnārius.
The history of the rupees traces back to Ancient India circa 6th century BC. Ancient India was the earliest issuers of coins in the world, along with the Chinese wen and Lydian staters. The term is from rūpya, a Sanskrit term for silver coin, from Sanskrit rūpá, beautiful form - Rupyakam. (Aup. adds: The gold coin was known as Swarna Mudra - Gold coin; Nishka was the copper coin).
(Wikipedia)

 

[FearGod]

Salaam Alaikum.

I was wondering what the Muslim posters think of this.

12:20 in the Quran states about Joseph:

And they sold him for a reduced price - a few dirhams - and they were, concerning him, of those content with little.

How could Joseph have been sold for a few dirhams? They weren't invented until the 7th century BC.

Ancient Greek coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The history doesn't make any sense but the quran does.

If Dirham were from Greece which is in Europe then how come that it reached and used by the Arabia and not by the Roman Empire and why not used by Persia and why not used by India and why not used by China, why it was only used in the Arabia.

If you can explain it to me with logic then i'm all ears.

 

[Ashraf]

My understanding is that it means he was sold for a cheap price. And here dirham was a cheap currency used by the Arabs at the time of the prophet. So whether dirham was used at the time of Joseph or not, it just means the price of selling Joseph was very cheap

 

[TG123456]

Islam wasn't born until the 7th century b.c.

Ummm.... what???

 

[TG123456]

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله

You also my friend.

Time to have a break from video games

Sorry to disturb you.

Ehm..

I think it means the worth of a few dirhams; i.e. very cheap, to give a feel of how bad the situation Joseph was in. I think God wants to speak to us in a language we can understand so He used a currency well known.

That would make sense to me, but when you read the medieval commentaries of the Jalalayns and Ibn Qathir and tafsir Ibn Abbas, you will see that all of them believed Joseph was in fact sold for a few dirhams by his captors. Ibn Qathir quotes not only Ibn Abbas but also other companions of Muhammad as having this view. They even stated how many dirhams they believe Joseph was sold for, and how they were divided amongst the captors.

If the point was to make an analogy, the author showed a misunderstanding of his audience because the listeners believed that literal dirhams were used.

(And they sold him for a Bakhs price, - for a few Dirhams) in reference to Yusuf's brothers selling him for a little price, according to Mujahid and `Ikrimah. `Bakhs' means decreased, just as Allah the Exalted said in another Ayah,


﴿فَلاَ يَخَافُ بَخْساً وَلاَ رَهَقاً﴾


(shall have no fear, either of a Bakhs (a decrease in the reward of his good deeds) or a Rahaq (an increase in the punishment for his sins).) ﴿72:13﴾ meaning that Yusuf's brothers exchanged him for a miserably low price. Yet, he was so insignificant to them that had the caravan people wanted him for free, they would have given him for free to them! Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and Ad-Dahhak said that,


﴿وَشَرَوْهُ﴾


(And they sold him), is in reference to Yusuf's brothers. They sold Yusuf for the lowest price, as indicated by Allah's statement next,


﴿دَرَهِمَ مَعْدُودَةٍ﴾


(for a few Dirhams), twenty Dirhams, according to `Abdullah bin Mas`ud. Similar was said by Ibn `Abbas, Nawf Al-Bikali, As-Suddi, Qatadah and `Atiyah Al-`Awfi, who added that they divided the Dirhams among themselves, each getting two Dirhams. Ad-Dahhak commented on Allah's statement,


﴿وَكَانُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الزَهِدِينَ﴾


(And they were of those who regarded him insignificant.) "Because they had no knowledge of his prophethood and glorious rank with Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored.''

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Yusuf is Rescued from the Well and sold as a Slave

When did the story take time anyways?

I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it would have been when Egypt still had kings, before there were Pharaohs.

And are we certain dirhams were originally Greek and were never used by other civilizations?

They were invented by the Greeks, later other civilizations used them.

Just my 2 dirhams... I mean cents

LOL. American cents or Canadian? BTW did you know that in Canada they aren't used anymore? That is so annoying, they were so cool!

 

[TG123456]

Historically, the word "dirham" is derived from the name of a Greek coin, the Drachma (δραχμή); the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire controlled the Levant and traded with Arabia, circulating the coin there in pre-Islamic times and afterward.
The English word "dinar" is the transliteration of the Arabic دينار (dīnār), which was borrowed via the Syriac dīnarā from the Greek δηνάριον (denárion), itself from the Latin dēnārius.
The history of the rupees traces back to Ancient India circa 6th century BC. Ancient India was the earliest issuers of coins in the world, along with the Chinese wen and Lydian staters. The term is from rūpya, a Sanskrit term for silver coin, from Sanskrit rūpá, beautiful form - Rupyakam. (Aup. adds: The gold coin was known as Swarna Mudra - Gold coin; Nishka was the copper coin).
(Wikipedia)

Cool, thanks for sharing.

 

[TG123456]

The history doesn't make any sense but the quran do.

If Dirham were from Greece which is in Europe then how come that it reached and used by the Arabia and not by the Roman Empire and why not used by Persia and why not used by India and why not used by China, why it was only used in the Arabia.

If you can explain it to me with logic then i'm all ears.

Dirhams were originally from Greece, and used by the Greeks. After Alexander the Great conquered much of the middle east and Asia, the drachma currency also spread there. We find Jesus making reference to drachmas in the Gospels, so we know they were around in Palestine/Israel, although that land is not in Greece.

The use of drachmas was eventually abandoned by the Greeks, and in the Byzantine Empire they were no longer in use.

However, they were used still by the Persians... who were one of the people who Alexander the Great conquered.

Greek drachma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alexander the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TG123456]

My understanding is that it means he was sold for a cheap price. And here dirham was a cheap currency used by the Arabs at the time of the prophet. So whether dirham was used at the time of Joseph or not, it just means the price of selling Joseph was very cheap

If you read the commentaries though, you will see that Muhammad's companions believed Joseph was sold literally for a number of dirhams. I am unaware of any interpretations of that time by people who believed that the dirhams were an analogy.

 

[FearGod]

Dirhams were originally from Greece, and used by the Greeks. After Alexander the Great conquered much of the middle east and Asia, the drachma currency also spread there. We find Jesus making reference to drachmas in the Gospels, so we know they were around in Palestine/Israel, although that land is not in Greece.

The use of drachmas was eventually abandoned by the Greeks, and in the Byzantine Empire they were no longer in use.

However, they were used still by the Persians... who were one of the people who Alexander the Great conquered.

Greek drachma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alexander the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry your explanation doesn't make any sense since it's based on subjectivity and not facts, also the great empire of Alexander never included the Arabia and
hence no reason for people of Mecca to use it as their main currency.

 

[Smart_Guy]

You also my friend.
Sorry to disturb you.

No trouble at all... I just needed to stretch a little

That would make sense to me, but when you read the medieval commentaries of the Jalalayns and Ibn Qathir and tafsir Ibn Abbas, you will see that all of them believed Joseph was in fact sold for a few dirhams by his captors. Ibn Qathir quotes not only Ibn Abbas but also other companions of Muhammad as having this view. They even stated how many dirhams they believe Joseph was sold for, and how they were divided amongst the captors.

If the point was to make an analogy, the author showed a misunderstanding of his audience because the listeners believed that literal dirhams were used.

(And they sold him for a Bakhs price, - for a few Dirhams) in reference to Yusuf's brothers selling him for a little price, according to Mujahid and `Ikrimah. `Bakhs' means decreased, just as Allah the Exalted said in another Ayah,

﴿فَلاَ يَخَافُ بَخْساً وَلاَ رَهَقاً﴾

(shall have no fear, either of a Bakhs (a decrease in the reward of his good deeds) or a Rahaq (an increase in the punishment for his sins).) ﴿72:13﴾ meaning that Yusuf's brothers exchanged him for a miserably low price. Yet, he was so insignificant to them that had the caravan people wanted him for free, they would have given him for free to them! Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and Ad-Dahhak said that,

﴿وَشَرَوْهُ﴾

(And they sold him), is in reference to Yusuf's brothers. They sold Yusuf for the lowest price, as indicated by Allah's statement next,

﴿دَرَهِمَ مَعْدُودَةٍ﴾

(for a few Dirhams), twenty Dirhams, according to `Abdullah bin Mas`ud. Similar was said by Ibn `Abbas, Nawf Al-Bikali, As-Suddi, Qatadah and `Atiyah Al-`Awfi, who added that they divided the Dirhams among themselves, each getting two Dirhams. Ad-Dahhak commented on Allah's statement,

﴿وَكَانُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الزَهِدِينَ﴾

(And they were of those who regarded him insignificant.) "Because they had no knowledge of his prophethood and glorious rank with Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored.''

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Yusuf is Rescued from the Well and sold as a Slave

I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it would have been when Egypt still had kings, before there were Pharaohs.

They were invented by the Greeks, later other civilizations used them.

Yes, thank you for sharing your views.

Is it 100% proven for certain that at that time there was no currency called dirham, and that the Greek drachma is indeed the dirham mentioned in the verse? Greek is not the only civilization existed to invent and get borrowed from, you know

LOL. American cents or Canadian? BTW did you know that in Canada they aren't used anymore? That is so annoying, they were so cool!

Saudi cents... kidding

That's interesting... so they came up with another smaller units then! Well, they want people to distinguish the English speaking ones from Americans somehow, I believe

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on all.
"......It was this currency which was initially adopted as an Arab word; then near the end of the 7th century the coin became an Islamic currency bearing the name of the sovereign and a religious verse. ......"
Dirham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(already some lines given in #4 by friend Aupmanyav)


Please see how some people translated the specific verse.


George Sale: And they sold him for a mean price, for a few pence, and valued him lightly.


M. M. Pickthall: And they sold him for a low price, a number of silver coins; and they attached no value to him.



Ahmad and Samira: And they bought him with a reduced/unjust price, counted/numbered silver coins , and they were in him from the indifferent/uninterested .


T. B. Irving: They sold him for a trifling price, just a few coins which were counted out. They were quite indifferent about him,

 

[FearGod]

Peace be on all.
Dirham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes it says the currency were used by the Arab world.

We have to make guesses for what had happened next, lets guess that the greek found the name awful then they decided to cancel it and invented a new one, the far world which is the Arab world found the name attractive and kept it till our days, that make sense.

Keeping in mind that Alexander the great never reached the Arabian peninsula.

 

[FearGod]

Who cared about Arabia till Islam succeeded? Egypt, Babylon and Iran were the drivers.

I think this Dir is for Muslims, do you have interest towards Islam & the quran or just debating for other reasons.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sorry, how did I land up here?

 

[jeager106]

Ummm.... what???

Main article: Historiography of early Islam
The Islamic state and Muslims' system of government evolved through various stages.[2] The precise dates of various periods in history are more or less arbitrary. The City-state period lasted from 620s to 630s. The Imperial period lasted from 630s to 750s. The Universal period lasted from 750s to around 900s. These correspond to the early period of post-classical history. The "Decentralization" periodlasted from around 900s to the early 1500s. This correspond to the high period and late period of post-classical history. The"Fragmentation" period lasted from around 1500s to the late 1910s. The contemporary period, referred to as the National period, lasted from 1910s into the twenty-first century.


From:History of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TG123456]

Sorry your explanation doesn't make any sense since it's based on subjectivity and not facts, also the great empire of Alexander never included the Arabia and
hence no reason for people of Mecca to use it as their main currency.

The Empire of Alexander the Great did not include Arabia, but it did include Persia. As you know, in the 7th century and prior to that, the Arabs were surrounded by the Sassanian and Byzantine empires. Sassanian currency, which at that time consisted of drachmas, was used by Arabs. The same is true of Byzantine currency.

According to Professor Mansour Zarra-Nezhad from Ahvaz University, Iran:

ABSTRACT Before the appearance of Islam, dinar and dirham were the currencies in use in the Byzantine and Iran empires, respectively. Both currencies were in use in pre-Islamic Arabia and continued to be so in the Islamic state. In 74 AH the Islamic dinar and dirham were minted. Estimating their value is a matter of considerable importance to those doing research in Islamic economics. This paper estimates the value of these two currencies using two methods 'natural value' and 'purchasing power'. It finds that a dinar was worth 261 to 293 thousand riyals or USD 32.5-36.5.
A Brief History of Money in Islam and Estimating the Value of Dirham and Dinar - ResearchGate. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_Estimating_the_Value_of_Dirham_and_Dinar [accessed Apr 16, 2015].

 

[TG123456]

No trouble at all... I just needed to stretch a little

LOL. Hope you saved your level and the bad guys didn't beat you while I was distracting you. :

Yes, thank you for sharing your views.

No problem, and thank you for your response.

Is it 100% proven for certain that at that time there was no currency called dirham, and that the Greek drachma is indeed the dirham mentioned in the verse? Greek is not the only civilization existed to invent and get borrowed from, you know

Given that "dirham" is derived from "drachma", which is a Greek word, it is pretty much certain that the Greeks were the ones who invented the drachma.

Saudi cents... kidding

That's interesting... so they came up with another smaller units then! Well, they want people to distinguish the English speaking ones from Americans somehow, I believe

Actually, they just got rid of cents altogether, and now the smallest monetary unit we have is the nickel (5 cents). I think it's too bad but whatever, life goes on.