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Putting god first!

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Our children are in their 40s, we are extremely proud of them, they have turned out well.:)
Good to hear your kids turned out well:).

I am not a Christian, but I went day before yesterday to a Christian festival where 50.000 Christians were. There was 1 Christian monk, and he gave a seminar. It was the best Christian seminar I ever heard ... at least his words were not judgmental at all. So I was very happy to find at least 1 Christian (out of 50.000) who "turned out well"; meaning not judging non-Christian humans. Of course I didn't talk to all 50.000;), but all the other Christians I talked to were judgmental towards my belief.

So even if the (hypothetical) "Biblical God" is horror and destruction, 1 of His Children can turn out well also (maybe even 2 or 3). I am optimistic:D
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
And religion is faith based for a reason.

However,
Ask yourself why a caring god created childhood leukemia
Ask yourself why a jealous would create the mosquito to kill his prize invention
I could go on?
Those I can understand after doing some introspection

BUT: That certain people picture this God as a human that goes beyond my imagination
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Have you never studied the historical evidences for Jesus and his resurrection? Faith is part of it, yes, but there's tons of evidence that a lot of people have as a foundation for their faith.

Recommended reading:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;
"Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler;
"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

There is no physical evidence jesus existed as described in the bible. The above books are not, cannot, be evidenced based

If you have evidence there is no need for faith.

Recommended reading
Jesus the Terrorist - Peter Cresswell
The Talmud
And there is much about jesus father, Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera


However you are perfectly welcome to your faith
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Those I can understand after doing some introspection

BUT: That certain people picture this God as a human that goes beyond my imagination

You can understand why a god kills innocent children?
You can understand why a god would create an insect to kill his worshippers?

Please enlighten us.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
It sickens me that some people consider their version of a god more important than their family, even their children. If a god does exist, it shouldn't be so far up its one rear end that it expects to come first and be worshipped. No one or thing is worthy of worship, especially not the Biblical god if the things stated in that book about it are true.

I think it depends on what God and His will means. In Bible, love God means that we love our neighbor as ourselves. If your children are more important than love your neighbor, it is bad. It means you would value your children more than good and right. You would for example be ready to murder if you think it would be necessary or useful. And unfortunately, it seems that many could reject truth and good, for their benefit. I think that is bad and evil.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
There is no physical evidence jesus existed as described in the bible. The above books are not, cannot, be evidenced based

If you have evidence there is no need for faith.

Recommended reading
Jesus the Terrorist - Peter Cresswell
The Talmud
And there is much about jesus father, Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera


However you are perfectly welcome to your faith

There's no physical evidence for most figures of antiquity. If that's your standard then you'll have to rip entire sections out of your history books.

And evidence and faith are not mutually exclusive. You can have both.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
However,
Ask yourself why a caring god created childhood leukemia
Ask yourself why a jealous would create the mosquito to kill his prize invention
I could go on?

Those I can understand after doing some introspection

You can understand why a god kills innocent children?
You can understand why a god would create an insect to kill his worshippers?

Please enlighten us.
* A): I do not pretend to know "God" or why "He" does things. Below I just give my opinion as seen from Advaita
* B): I would not tell an Atheist about Advaita ... but as you asked "enlighten us" I replied

"Those I can understand after doing some introspection" ... or better ... "(lots of) introspection and meditation":
Most humans identify with the body ... so I understand that those humans have a hard time seeing/understanding "God creating leukemia"
Advaita on the other hand teaches us "you are not the body, you are Atma (indestructible Consciousness)" ... from this concept "there is no killing" even. So the whole problem does not even arise (someone killing someone else). Another thing is that most people are brainwashed with BibleGod-picture only. If I would have to understand these things from this view, I would have problems too, so at age 10 I already dropped the whole BibleGod-picture as "won't work for me". I prefer Advaita and the concept of Consciousness to understand these things. Makes more sense to me.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Don't you think it is a little creepy asking a father to sacrifice his son?

It was a test...God was never going to ask him to do that.....but pictorially we learn lessons in the exercise.

We have a Father asked to sacrifice his only begotten son (in Abraham's case the son of the promise) and we see a willingness on the part of the father to unhesitatingly demonstrate faith in his God's requirements, even if he didn't understand them. On this occasion, he trusted his God implicitly....more than he trusted his own judgment.

Hebrews 11:17-19....ESV
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back."

Abraham had faith in the resurrection, so if God required his death, then Abraham figured that he would also fulfill his promise by raising Isaac back from the dead.

It was also a demonstration of Isaac's willingness to be offered as a sacrifice. His father was very old and Isaac was a strong young man at this time, so he could easily have overpowered his father and fled the scene...but he too trusted in his father and in the God of his father.

All of God's promises for the future rested on Isaac, but when God asked Abraham to do the unthinkable, God saw how powerful his faith was. He was never going to ask him to sacrifice his precious son, so he provided a replacement, when he knew that Abraham would acceded to his request.

But illustratively it pictured God sacrificing his only son, and the willingness of both to do so unhesitatingly because God required it according to his unchangeable law.

God also knew that he could raise his beloved son from the dead, after he had offered up his precious life for mankind.
Resurrecting his son was easy....but the suffering and torture beforehand, along with the fact that God had to withdraw his spirit from his son in order for him to die, (Mark 15:34) would have caused his Father enormous pain.

There is nothing "creepy" about that account...we can learn so much from these pictorial events, if we look for their meaning.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It was a test...God was never going to ask him to do that.....but pictorially we learn lessons in the exercise.

We have a Father asked to sacrifice his only begotten son (in Abraham's case the son of the promise) and we see a willingness on the part of the father to unhesitatingly demonstrate faith in his God's requirements, even if he didn't understand them. On this occasion, he trusted his God implicitly....more than he trusted his own judgment.

Hebrews 11:17-19....ESV
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back."

Abraham had faith in the resurrection, so if God required his death, then Abraham figured that he would also fulfill his promise by raising Isaac back from the dead.

It was also a demonstration of Isaac's willingness to be offered as a sacrifice. His father was very old and Isaac was a strong young man at this time, so he could easily have overpowered his father and fled the scene...but he too trusted in his father and in the God of his father.

All of God's promises for the future rested on Isaac, but when God asked Abraham to do the unthinkable, God saw how powerful his faith was. He was never going to ask him to sacrifice his precious son, so he provided a replacement, when he knew that Abraham would acceded to his request.

But illustratively it pictured God sacrificing his only son, and the willingness of both to do so unhesitatingly because God required it according to his unchangeable law.

God also knew that he could raise his beloved son from the dead, after he had offered up his precious life for mankind.
Resurrecting his son was easy....but the suffering and torture beforehand, along with the fact that God had to withdraw his spirit from his son in order for him to die, (Mark 15:34) would have caused his Father enormous pain.

There is nothing "creepy" about that account...we can learn so much from these pictorial events, if we look for their meaning.

Why would God need to test Abraham's faith? Doesn't God know what is in a person's heart?
There is no information on the age of Issac. when God asked for his sacrifice.
If God was going to resurrect Issac anyway, why did God stop Abraham? Wouldn't it have been even a greater show of faith? A greater show of God's power?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why would God need to test Abraham's faith? Doesn't God know what is in a person's heart?

God allowed Abraham to demonstrate his faith of his own free will, in order to have a written record of it for our benefit. It was Abraham's choice to please his God. It was not forced or coerced in any way. He is one of our prime examples of faith in the Bible.

Job was tested to the very limit of human endurance and he also passed that test with flying colors. Why did God allow such an awful test? Because satan had made an accusation about this most faithful of men and by extension, all of us. He said that Job only served God because of the good things that God gave him....he said that if everything was taken away, that Job would curse God to his face. Satan took away everything that Job valued in his life, including his 10 children.....but he maintained his faith even though he had no idea that he was the subject of a test. But that wasn't enough.....he then said that Job would give up his God before he gave up his life.....he was wrong again. Job never wavered even though he mistakenly believed that the run of bad events was coming from God. He had no idea why these things were happening but he figured that there had to be a good reason. And on top of all that, three so called "comforters" came and accused Job of doing evil things to deserve this punishment. Why is that account in the Bible? Step back and see how many people are like Job right now, with one calamitous thing after another happening to them. How many are proving to be faithful like Job.....and how many are giving up on God just like satan said they would if the going got tough?

There is no information on the age of Issac. when God asked for his sacrifice.
If God was going to resurrect Issac anyway, why did God stop Abraham? Wouldn't it have been even a greater show of faith? A greater show of God's power?

Jewish tradition, recorded by Josephus, says that Isaac was 25 years old at the time. At any rate, he was old enough and strong enough to carry a considerable quantity of wood up a mountain. So, he could have resisted his 125-year-old father when the time came to bind him if he had chosen to be rebellious against Jehovah’s commandments. (Jewish Antiquities, I, 227 [xiii, 2]) Instead, Isaac submissively let his father proceed to offer him as a sacrifice in harmony with God’s will. For this demonstration of Abraham’s faith, Jehovah then repeated and enlarged upon his covenant with Abraham, which covenant was transferred by God to Isaac after the death of his father.

It is stated that those who come back in the resurrection will not marry or have children. (Luke 20:34-36) So perhaps a resurrected Isaac would not have had the ability to have children. We really don't know.

When you understand that God wanted the earth "filled"....but not overpopulated, we can understand why there will be no marriage for the resurrected ones. Think of how awkward it would be for those who lost spouses and married again. I believe that a whole new kind of love will prevail then....one that we never got to develop due to sin.

In the big scheme of things, there would have to come a time when the earth reached its full limit of human population. Unlike the animals, we were not created to die, so when we have comfortably filled the earth, God will probably do one of two things.....he will either stop us from procreating...or he will make other planets habitable and allow some of us to go there as new Adams and Eves. ...who knows? Its a mighty big universe.

We will soon see I guess. Whatever God decides, it will be well received by those blessed with everlasting life in Paradise.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And religion is faith based for a reason.

However,
Ask yourself why a caring god created childhood leukemia
Ask yourself why a jealous would create the mosquito to kill his prize invention
I could go on?

Who said God created childhood leukemia?
Who said that God is responsible for the diseases carried by mosquitoes? Or any other affliction for that matter?

The human immune system, if it functioned at its peak performance would not allow a single human to become ill from any external or internal cause. It is designed as a strong defense against any foreign organism entering or developing within the body.

We lost our physical perfection back in Eden with all that it meant for the optimal functioning of our minds and bodies. We continue to take in all that this world wants to offload on us so that they can make money. It is obvious that they have no regard or respect for human life.

Our food is contaminated and grown in nutrient and mineral deficient soil. Instead of natural fertilizers, we have tons of chemical fertilizers and pesticides contaminating our food. The processing makes sure that it has a long shelf life so that they can continue to make large profits...but the food is dead....processed till all the goodness is taken out of it.
We saturate our existence in synthetics of every sort when our bodies were designed for natural living foods and plant based fabrics.
The air we breathe is polluted with all manner of toxic substances that make us sick, and the water we drink is likewise polluted with chemicals that were never designed to enter the human body.

God didn't make us sick...humans did. And the system we live in continues to make sure that we never get well....they are making a fortune off our ill health.

You are putting the blame on the wrong person. The Creator is giving us all enough rope.....
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
It sickens me that some people consider their version of a god more important than their family, even their children. If a god does exist, it shouldn't be so far up its one rear end that it expects to come first and be worshipped. No one or thing is worthy of worship, especially not the Biblical god if the things stated in that book about it are true.

Quite beautiful how fallacious this post is.

Basically you have problem with A, so then you throw the whole goddamn kitchen sink under the bus and cheer on and it crashes into the water.

Sure, your posts here imply a lot of bitterness towards religion (Christianity I presume), emotional overload, I get it but it's really no excuse to set up such deplorable false equivalence fallacies pitted as a dichotomy that does not follow at all.
In fact that dichotomy itself would imply it's quite the opposite, if religious parents actually believe what they say they do.

Bad parenting? good point, this belongs in the social area. People who don't raise their kids properly and neglect them, treat them horribly, abuse them etc need justice wrapped around their necks. Your kids are your legacy in most regards.

God and the importance of God (which IS more important than anything else and I'll fight you for that liberty) does not equate. Considering that practically all major traditional religions stress the importance of family life and family relationships, your comment really raises an eyebrow.

I'll stick your post in the "my parents where ****" folder. Bad parents has no baring whatsoever on the subject of "God" and it's importance, even in spite of bad parents.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Don't you think it is a little creepy asking a father to sacrifice his son?
When Masters teach students lessons, many times they use symbolism in their stories
From Sanathana Dharma I know that son is symbolism for wisdom and daughter for compassion
So God asking you to offer your son is the final test to even give up wisdom before merging into God
(Love is the greatest Commandment)

This example does make it very clear, that we should use our discrimination and common sense before even Divine Sense (God asking you to sacrifice your son). Normally it's enough to contemplate the Golden Rule:"do unto others what you want them to do unto you" ... most people don't want to be sacrificed, so they should not sacrifice others (some sects do this, but they lack discrimination or are just plain narcissistic or psychopaths, not contemplating the Golden Rule, they are worse than animals in my opinion)
 
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JJ50

Well-Known Member
Quite beautiful how fallacious this post is.

Basically you have problem with A, so then you throw the whole goddamn kitchen sink under the bus and cheer on and it crashes into the water.

Sure, your posts here imply a lot of bitterness towards religion (Christianity I presume), emotional overload, I get it but it's really no excuse to set up such deplorable false equivalence fallacies pitted as a dichotomy that does not follow at all.
In fact that dichotomy itself would imply it's quite the opposite, if religious parents actually believe what they say they do.

Bad parenting? good point, this belongs in the social area. People who don't raise their kids properly and neglect them, treat them horribly, abuse them etc need justice wrapped around their necks. Your kids are your legacy in most regards.

God and the importance of God (which IS more important than anything else and I'll fight you for that liberty) does not equate. Considering that practically all major traditional religions stress the importance of family life and family relationships, your comment really raises an eyebrow.

I'll stick your post in the "my parents where ****" folder. Bad parents has no baring whatsoever on the subject of "God" and it's importance, even in spite of bad parents.

God was the worst parent if it deliberately created a son so that it he would die to save humanity from its own screw up.:mad::mad:
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
God was the worst parent if it deliberately created a son so that it he would die to save humanity from its own screw up.:mad::mad:

What about God outside of Trinitarian Christianity? :shrug:

While you're at it, do you have any worthwhile arguments? or just aggression?

(btw, don't assume I'm a Christian cause I ain't)
 
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JJ50

Well-Known Member
What about God outside of Trinitarian Christianity? :shrug:

While you're at it, do you have any worthwhile arguments? or just aggression?

(btw, don't assume I'm a Christian cause I ain't)

I don't think a belief in any sort of god is a necessary adjunct to one's life. Belief in the Christian god spoilt my childhood.
 
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