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Purpose and function

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
May misunderstand what you are saying so bear that in mind :D

Doesn't a function always have a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be a function, to begin with?

Whereas you can have a purpose without it having any function(s) to achieve it.
I don't think you are misunderstanding. You have dialed down to a point of this thread. Does function show purpose? I don't think so, but I think it worth discussing. I think that sometimes purpose and function are used interchangeably adds to the confusion.

That is interesting. I hadn't thought about purpose without function very much, but I think you are right. I often find that my purposes are opposed by my lack of resources (function) to achieve those purposes. I wouldn't mind being in a financial position of wealth that would allow me to have a hobby of destroying a reasonably good social media platform. Though I don't would have that as a purpose to begin with.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I would say that what life has ended up doing is fill the earth. Life did not decide on that, it just happened, so it is not a purpose that life proposed it is a function that life does.
IMO any purpose is something decided on by someone who can decide. So I can pick up a piece of wood and see a use for it and purpose it for that use.
In the same way life has a purpose because there is a creator who created for a reason. Without a God life just exists and there is no purpose that it exists for.
I'm a little confused. This position seems at odds in many ways with the post you followed with.

Just to make sure you are aware, my purpose here isn't to claim there is no God. That would be more than a little at odds with my own personal beliefs. I'm interested in better understanding the concepts. As well as recognizing that what we believe has limited impact on what we can say based on our knowledge and understanding. I believe God is behind it all, but I also know that I have no evidence to say that so that others can believe it too. Though this often puts me at odds with those that claim what they believe explains and supersedes what we observe without benefit of the ability to support those claims.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
That evolution is a function of natural selection, but we are on the same path. I agree, there is no evidence of a goal and plenty of evidence to call goal or agency into doubt. Some of the results wouldn't rate as goal oriented in my understanding.
I disagree, evolution has a clear goal.

"A goal is an objective or target that someone is trying to reach or achieve. Goal is also the end point of a race or something that a player is trying to put an object into as part of a game. Goal has other senses as a noun. A goal is an aim or objective that you work toward with effort and determination."

Goal: survival, but more than just survive, increase in numbers, expand.

It's not random, there is direction, layers of fossils which become more complex, more resilient, stronger. Intent, direction, goals - to fill the universe with life, a beautiful inspirational thing.

No, idea.

You are confusing the organisms’ immediate needs to survive & reproduce with Evolution.

Evolution isn’t just about the immediate needs. It is about changes and diversity of organisms over time, and in evolution we are not just talking about the immediate generation and within the lifetime of that organism - the immediate generation, or the next generation (offspring) or two.

No, in Evolution, it could thousands of generations or more, before biologists could see notable physical differences between the source (eg the ancestors) and the descendants thousands of generations later.

So if you are implying their are goal, purpose or intent from the ancestors to plan intended changes for specific descendants, like the “10,000th generation” later, then this is nothing more than fantasy that you cooked up or you on acid trip.

The ancestors cannot make purposeful plan for its 10,000th generation of descendants.

There are no blueprints for who would receive the expected generations for now.

I would hardly think that the Homo erectus, some 2 million years ago, made purposeful plan for the Homo sapiens to evolve from them, 300,000 years ago.

Do you seriously think the grey wolves plan to become domestic dogs?

And you would be unrealistic to think earliest spore-reproducing plants in the Devonian period, to become or evolve into flower-bearing & seed-producing plants in the Cretaceous period, a gap of about 300 million years. There are no purpose or planning for Evolution of plants, there are no plan for population to diverge to different species from the parent species.
 
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Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
The interesting question is if purpose is an epiphenomenon, as per this definition - a mental state regarded as a by-product of brain activity. In other words an epiphenomenon is the effect of a cause, but it has no causal effect itself. It is nothing but the effect of something else.
Just to get the philosophy out of the way by stating the assumptions, it is a combination of methodological naturalism in both the analytical tradition of philosophy and a variant of phenomenology as per intent.

So what I will try to do, is to reduce purpose and intent away as only an effect of function and as with no causal effect for these concepts. But I will try to avoid greedy reductionism and that comes at a price in regards to science per the ideal of only objective cause and effect.
Further I will use a sloopy style in that by way of analogy, in that between a complex math problem and the solution I won't always state all the steps to get there.

First the ladder of physical, chemistry, biochemistry, evolution, humans and then all the soft stuff. In principle it is connected by the concept of bridge laws and in the ideal of objective as described by scientific laws.
So here it is a verbal connective bridge law for the mental versus the physical. The mental is the effect/product of the physical processes in a given brain.

But and there is a big but, not all physical processes are objective in practice when you include humans in the model. How, and not why?
Because the replication of the fittest genome is an cause and effect system that for humans are not independent of cause and effect in brains.
In other words, for the greedy reductionism of objective physicalism then all physical processes are independent of brains, but that is absurd, because this text as an effect is caused in part by a brain, mine. :D

So what is design and intent? It is a self-referring function of a brain, which is capable of making an abstract model of cause and effect for the future.
Humans are an evolutionary variant, because in short our niche is our ability to make functional abstract models and plans, that allows us to achieve food, water and other factors in ways non-humans can't. I.e. a design is a function of a brain, that makes make functional abstract models and plans, that allows that brain and other ones to achieve food, water and other factors. And an intent is a model of a functional cause in a brain for a desired effect.

And yes, there is more. But this text is not true. It is a self-referring narrative of how to understand humans as humans as being in nature, parts of nature and functioning as parts of nature.
But it says nothing about the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything, because that answer is subjective and thus non-hard science.
I'm going to have to read this a few times, but I think...we may agree on some things here. I'll leave this a place holder so you know I'm not ignoring your post, but needing some time to absorb and understand it.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
No, idea.

You are confusing the organisms’ immediate needs to survive & reproduce with Evolution.

Evolution isn’t just about the immediate needs. It is about changes and diversity of organisms over time, and in evolution we are not just talking about the immediate generation and within the lifetime of that organism - the immediate generation, or the next generation (offspring) or two.

No, Evolution could thousands of generations or more, before biologists could see notable physical differences between the source (eg the ancestors) and the descendants thousands of generations later.

So if you are implying their are goal, purpose or intent from the ancestors to plan intended changes for specific descendants, like the “10,000th generation” later, then this is nothing more than fantasy that you cooked up or you on acid trip.

The ancestors cannot make purposeful plan for its 10,000th generation of descendants.

There are no blueprints for who would receive the expected generations for now.

I would hardly think that the Homo erectus, some 2 million years ago, made purposeful plan for the Homo sapiens to evolve from them, 300,000 years ago.

Do you seriously think the grey wolves plan to become domestic dogs?

And you would be unrealistic to think earliest spore-reproducing plants in the Devonian period, to become or evolve into flower-bearing & seed-producing plants in the Cretaceous period, a gap of about 300 million years.
When you stretch purpose that far so many things need to be accounted for that cannot be. It falls apart as a claim.

A species would have to plan its own demise or play an active role in its own demise. Counter to the idea that the purpose of evolution is survival.

Edit: Or plan to altruistically share with a daughter or sibling species since demise is not necessarily inevitable for the ancestor, though it often ends up that way in the long term.
 

idea

Question Everything
the purpose of evolution is survival.

The purpose of evolution is more than survival, it is multiplying, and diversifying. If the end justifies the means, or the present is evidence of the purpose of the past, 8.7 million species - the goals is biodiversity which is able to survive through it all. Environmentalists protect all life forms, not just their personal species. We're symbiotic. One wolf does well to become domesticated, while we are also thankful for those wolves who have stayed in the wild. Diverse life forms, diverse social rules, diverse beliefs.

Forums like this are enjoyable, to see all the diverse beliefs. May we never come to agreement, may we stay diverse. In engineering there is no "true" solution, no "correct" design - no car best in all circumstances, no correct design for a house. Nature's diversity to me is the goal, diversity as a means to survive, each generation rebelling and doing things just a little different from their parents.
 

idea

Question Everything
Yep. But who is that "someone" in your example?

Me, myself, and I. I'm a big fan of self-reliamce, that purpose isn't handed down by god, but instead created from within.

It's everyone's adventure to find their own meaning, their own goals, their own purpose. Define themselves.

"Life" is not a person, it isn't even a thing. It is an artefact of the English language that allows substantivation of verbs. In reality there is no life, only living.
When someone dies, what has changed?

Language, just symbols, a finger pointing to the moon -
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Hm.. Well I shall return, after I thought more about this slightly. Presently, I would roughly state that purpose is built on function, but directs it. But with purpose, a whole new set of problems arise, for hierarchically above purpose, is decision and choice.

And it is extremely hard to tell, if anything is in fact above choice
 

idea

Question Everything
I'm not sure I'm following you on the reference to extremophiles. Are you talking about the durability of tardigrades?

You may have to elaborate on this, because I may be too obtuse to sniff out your meaing.

List of microorganisms tested in outer space - Wikipedia

There are around 250 different bacteria and fungi who thrive in space

Aggressive Fungus Found Growing in Outer Space - The Permaculture Research Institute

Personally, I support colonizing the moon/ Mars with bacteria and fungi before trying to establish human colonies. In any event, diversity is beneficial

Those little critters -
Bacteria - Wikipedia

Our ancestors
Earliest known life forms - Wikipedia

Our foundation. We all survive/thrive/multiply together. Sure, we have lost a few species along the way, but overall, evolution has produced symbiotic biodiversity. There is reason to appreciate and protect all life.

A glorious purpose, no? To fill the universe with life?
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
When someone dies, what has changed?
They have stopped living. They don't move any more and nothing is moving within them.
They have lost a function.
There is no "life" or holy smoke that has left the body.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
List of microorganisms tested in outer space - Wikipedia

There are around 250 different bacteria and fungi who thrive in space

Aggressive Fungus Found Growing in Outer Space - The Permaculture Research Institute

Personally, I support colonizing the moon/ Mars with bacteria and fungi before trying to establish human colonies. In any event, diversity is beneficial

Those little critters -
Bacteria - Wikipedia

Our ancestors
Earliest known life forms - Wikipedia

Our foundation. We all survive/thrive/multiply together. Sure, we have lost a few species along the way, but overall, evolution has produced symbiotic biodiversity. There is reason to appreciate and protect all life.

A glorious purpose, no? To fill the universe with life?

Great idea, except a lot of barriers that prevent life on the Moon, it would require two very essential things:
  • atmosphere
  • water
There are not much of atmosphere on the Moon, and there are occasional water vapors, not much for even bacteria to survive.

Plus bacteria must be able to sustain itself. All life required sustenance.

So long-term colonisation of the Moon is out of the question, especially when you consider there are lack of natural resources.

Mars would be better candidate for life, as in rich carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. But there are still the issue with water.

Water in ice may exist in the polar regions of Mars, but there are no free liquid water, and there are no rain-producing clouds on Mars.

On Earth, before there were plants, bacteria and archaea were the only lifeform, they exist in prebiotic atmosphere (meaning no free oxygen, O2). The atmosphere comprised mostly of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, methane, etc. So the earlier species of bacteria thrived in such atmosphere.

But then new species of bacteria, the Cyanobacteria, were capable of photosynthesis like plants. These use ultraviolet light to catalyze chain reaction between carbon dioxide and water, into oxygen and starch (carbohydrates). That was how oxygen was introduced to the Earth's atmosphere, about 2.7 billion years ago.

But the oxygenation of the Earth's caused mass extinction of bacteria that cannot tolerate O2 oxygen. But those bacteria that managed to survive, would evolve to new species of bacteria that can thrive in oxygen atmosphere.

So while oxygen may cause mass extinction of oxygen-intolerant bacteria and archaea, the bacteria that survive were able to diversify, and evolve enough new species were introduced.

Oxygen actually cause of more complex traits in the species of bacteria and of archaea.

Bacteria and Archaea are taxon domains that have prokaryotic cell, cell with no nucleus and no organelle (eg mitochrondria organelle in cells of animals, and chloroplast organelle in cells of plants and some algae).

Because of oxygen, some prokaryotic cells evolve into eukaryotic cells, around about somewhere between 1.6 and 2.1 billion years ago. Organisms with eukaryotic cells, are "collectively" called eukaryotes, and that include the animal kingdom (Animalia), plant kingdom (Plantae) and fungi kingdom (Fungi).

Now you may think about introducing cyanobacteria to Mars, so they can produce oxygen in the atmosphere, but that's no possible unless you have liquid water, not ice water, because cyanobacteria still require water to chemically react to carbon dioxide.

Plus, it took hundreds of million of years on Earth, for cyanobacteria to make enough oxygen to tip the balance of atmosphere towards oxygen atmosphere.

Can humans wait for hundreds of millions of years to colonize Mars while cyanobacteria oxygenate Mars' atmosphere?

Will there even be humans around in 1 million or 10 million years from now?

I am just saying colonizing any moon or planet, is unrealistic, especially where there natural resources to sustain any sizeable colony.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
So long-term colonisation of the Moon is out of the question, especially when you consider there are lack of natural resources.
I'd urge for long term colonisation of the Moon because there are so many natural resources (iron and titanium, mostly).
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I'd urge for long term colonisation of the Moon because there are so many natural resources (iron and titanium, mostly).

That's great, but can humans evolve enough to eat iron and titanium?

I was talking of being able to sustain population on the long term.

You would need food and water, as well as air.

And the only thing that I can think of sending vessels back and forth. That would be unrealistic and expensive to supply the colonists for months, let alone years and decades.

It would be logistic nightmare.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I'd urge for long term colonisation of the Moon because there are so many natural resources (iron and titanium, mostly).


But no atmosphere, and no electro-magnetic field to protect future colonists from solar radiation. It’s a complete non starter, there are good reasons why no one has ever been back there.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
That's great, but can humans evolve enough to eat iron and titanium?

I was talking of being able to sustain population on the long term.

You would need food and water, as well as air.

And the only thing that I can think of sending vessels back and forth. That would be unrealistic and expensive to supply the colonists for months, let alone years and decades.

It would be logistic nightmare.
But no atmosphere, and no electro-magnetic field to protect future colonists from solar radiation. It’s a complete non starter, there are good reasons why no one has ever been back there.

Humans would obviously need to take a lot of supplies with them though not as much as you think. Oxygen for example is already there and regolith can be converted into soil. Water is the most important and the first water would have to come from earth. Later it would be more economic to get it from the ice moons of Jupiter or Saturn.
The habitats would have to be below the surface to block harmful radiation and they would have to be completely sustainable.
The Moon could produce titanium-steel sheets to build stations and space ships at much lower costs than Earth can. You can catapult them into orbit with a linear accelerator with no need for rocket fuel because the Moon has no atmosphere and much lower gravity.
So, why has nobody done it, yet? Because the initial costs are astronomical and there is little return of investment for someone who is staying on earth. It only makes sense if you want to live in space.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I'm a little confused. This position seems at odds in many ways with the post you followed with.

Just to make sure you are aware, my purpose here isn't to claim there is no God. That would be more than a little at odds with my own personal beliefs. I'm interested in better understanding the concepts. As well as recognizing that what we believe has limited impact on what we can say based on our knowledge and understanding. I believe God is behind it all, but I also know that I have no evidence to say that so that others can believe it too. Though this often puts me at odds with those that claim what they believe explains and supersedes what we observe without benefit of the ability to support those claims.

Post 54 and post 55 agree imo. Post 54 gives my idea of purpose and function and post 55 is a bit of non empirical thinking on the topic and about the unlikelihood of randomly arriving where we are and so the likelihood of a designer, hence purpose.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
The purpose of evolution is more than survival, it is multiplying, and diversifying. If the end justifies the means, or the present is evidence of the purpose of the past, 8.7 million species - the goals is biodiversity which is able to survive through it all. Environmentalists protect all life forms, not just their personal species. We're symbiotic. One wolf does well to become domesticated, while we are also thankful for those wolves who have stayed in the wild. Diverse life forms, diverse social rules, diverse beliefs.

Forums like this are enjoyable, to see all the diverse beliefs. May we never come to agreement, may we stay diverse. In engineering there is no "true" solution, no "correct" design - no car best in all circumstances, no correct design for a house. Nature's diversity to me is the goal, diversity as a means to survive, each generation rebelling and doing things just a little different from their parents.
I did not claim the purpose of evolution is survival. I would appreciate that you give the full quote and not quote mine me or others so that it looks like we made claims we did not.

I don't have the evidence to conclude that evolution has purpose. That living things have diversified and multiplied over time is evidence of that and not purpose in evolution.

This assumes that "the means" is synonymous with purpose and assumes purpose.

All that I can say with any confidence is that there is no evidence that diversity, multitude, and the phenomena of evolution are results with no indication they are under the direction of a purpose.

My purpose of this thread is selfish. I want to enhance my understanding of the concepts and to see how others apply them. I may respond with my views on the subject, be criticized for my own or criticize others, but I have no expectation and am applying no effort to win others over. I'm hoping that makes this thread much more inclusive and helps eliminate some of the unproductive animosity that develops in similar discussions.
 
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