Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
How do you think that electrons are measured?
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Proven Science says there is No Universe without Conscious Man to Observe it.
- Thread starter Steven Merten
- Start date
How do you think that electrons are measured?
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The meaning of "discernment" and what in involves is just playing with irrelevant semantics. There is no solution, as yet, to the measurement problem, so attempting to claim that it is settled and that it involves human consciousness is to grossly misrepresent the situation.
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But it is certainly NOT the human that is doing the monitoring of the car.
Well, that's part of the point of QM. To make a measurement, you have to affect the system in some way. In the case of a double slit experiment, you can use photons to determine which slit the electron goes through, for example. But you need a photon with a small enough wavelength to distinguish between the two slits, which means the photon has a lot of energy, which will affect the electron's path.
Any time you can get information about the electron path, the interation will be strong enough to eliminate the interference pattern. When the 'detector' isn't able to detect the difference in the two paths, there will be such a pattern.
Consciousness isn't relevant. The interaction with the detector (which is required to make a measurement) is the key factor.
Oh, the equations very much do include this. You have to include the detector in your description of the motion of the electrons. And the amount of interaction with that detector will determine whether or not there is an interference pattern.
I can probable find a detailed description of the behavior online if you really want me to.
I did not do it. Please do not falsely blame me.
Actually no. As far as the science of physics and cosmology they are equal and harmonious. They may have different philosophies beyond this, but that is not relevant to science. I believe both have been misrepresented by some in this thread.
Steven Merten
Active Member
Hello Ouroboros,
The problem with thinking that God's observation collapses all the electron waves in the universe is that, in the double slit experiment, electrons are in wave form, when man is not observing them, and then they switch to physical partial form when man is observing them. The whole, un-imaginable, non-intuitive, miracle, of the double slit experiment, is that electrons switch from a wave of being in all possible places, to being in one decisive place, now as a physical particle, when man, not God, goes to measure/observe them.
tas8831
Well-Known Member
Grade school...
Science award winner.... speaks!
Thief
Rogue Theologian
check the vote tally
And that is simply incorrect. it *isn't* that humans are viewing the electrons that produces the change. It is having *anything* interacting with the electrons that can resolve 'which way' information.
You see, to observe requires some sort of interaction. So, when you try to observe an electron, you send a photon at it and see how that photon bounces off. In order for that photon to give 'which way' information, it needs to have a small wavelength, but that means it has a high energy, which affects the electron more. When the energy is high enough to distinguish between the two slits, the amount of interaction with the electron is enough to destroy the interference pattern.
It is NOT that some human is observing it that causes the issue. It is that to observe it at all requires an interaction. If the interaction is enough to give the information about 'which slit', then that interaction will destroy the interference pattern.
And it *still* doesn't mean there is faster than light communication. What travels is the *correlation* and that is originated when the particles are formed. So, when an observation at one end is made, that correlation is what means the other end gets a certain value.
Think of it like this (not a perfect analogy, but it works for this). Suppose you split a coin in half so that one side is heads and the other side is tails. Then you send the two pieces to places a long distance apart. Does the fact that one side reads a heads correlated to the other side reading tails mean there is faster than light communication? No!
In the quantum scenario, the correlation is set up early and is communicated slower than light.
Well. That does not mean that observer effect precludes the possibility of the observer being conscious.
No. But it does mean the observer doesn't have to be conscious, which is the point. Consciousness isn't the key. Interaction to get which-way information is the key. When you interact strongly enough to distinguish between the slits, the interference pattern goes away.
This is one reason why making a quantum computer is so hard: *any* outside interaction (light, for example), will collapse the entanglement we want to preserve.
Science is not a philosophy popularity contest.
So what as far as the science is concerned?!?!?!
Science has actually moved beyond the pioneering achievements of Einstein and Neils Bohr. Their philosophies are trivial pursuit.The reality of our physical existence is reflected in science, and not individual philosophies.
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I did not vote.
Your affiliation to certain ism makes you biased and unable to comprehend that 'information' is not conscious of itself.
I will rather that readers listen to a physicist.
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