• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

prove me wrong on evolution

Endless

Active Member
Thanks Jeryl i appreciate that.

My definition of macroevolution is mutation which brings about a new protein with a new function that confers an advantage or is neutral to the organism in question. However it must perform a new function and fit into the biochemical pathways of the organism. This is the only way you are going to get new things appearing in a creature that weren't there before, then these new things build up and the creature starts changing - evolving into a completely new creature.
Conferring an advantage to an organism is a general scientific term, not something i'm using to create an absurd case. Whether the mutation confers an advantage is not dependent on what an individual thinks - we can only tell that it has had an advantage by observing the 'fitness' of the organism once the mutation has occurred. If we observe the organism being worse off, being unable to compete as well in the environment and a lower reproduction rate as a result then the mutuation has had a negative impact on it. If we observe no change and things go on as before the mutation is described as neutral. If however we observe the organism competing in the environment better than before and reproduction rates increasing then the mutation can be said to have an advantage to that organism in that environment.

I'll elaborate a bit more on the protein. A protein has what is known as an 'active site' which basically means a place on the protein that gives the protein it's function. At this site are various aminoacid side chains which react with a very specific substrate (substance) and break it down. Proteins are made up of chains of aminoacids (AAs) which are folded in very specific ways, held together by weak forces and because of this they are extremely sensitive. Most proteins in humans if you heat them above 37C will begin to denature (unfold) and as a result the folding forming the active site changes so making the protein inactive. As you probably know, we call these proteins enzymes, and they form a vital role in the biochemiclal pathways in our cells. Hopefully that explains what i was talking about before.

Macro-evolution
Anyway, because enzymes rely on the 3D structure for their activity this means that disruption by mutation is very common since the 3D structure depends on the sequence of the AAs which depend on the genetic code which inturn can be altered by mutation. To cut a long story short it's very hard for a mutation to alter an existing enzyme without disrupting the enzymes activity in the process (which puts the organism at a disadvantage). The mutation has to alter the active site and in one go it has to change it so the active site now has a function it didn't have before (ie. Macroevolution). However since the previous enzyme played a role in an already existing pathway it must have a duplicate which isn't mutated inorder to still carry the existing pathway. The new enzyme must be useful and an advantage to the organism in order for its genetic sequence to be selected for and remain in the genome. The criteria for this is that there must be a substrate available that the new active site can act on (otherwise it's no use), there must be enzymes available to further react with the products of this first reaction or remove the fragments from the organism to prevent a build up toxifying it. The new enzyme must therefore fit in with existing biochemical pathways and not interfere with others by reacting with substrates that the other pathways need.
I'm only really brushing the complexity of the whole issue, that macroevolution is not a simple thing like microevolution. There are an awful lot of factors that have to be sastified at the same time inorder that macroevolution be possible.

I hope that helps explain what i meant when i was describing macroevolution previously.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
What's wrong with that?
Because it makes the exact same mutation in the exact same critter either "macroevolution" or "not macroevolution" based on where the critter happens to be at the time.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
JerryL said:
Because it makes the exact same mutation in the exact same critter either "macroevolution" or "not macroevolution" based on where the critter happens to be at the time.
I thought the dispute was over the term 'adavantage' which is clearly defined by the environment the gene exists within. Sorry.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Conferring an advantage to an organism is a general scientific term, not something i'm using to create an absurd case. Whether the mutation confers an advantage is not dependent on what an individual thinks - we can only tell that it has had an advantage by observing the 'fitness' of the organism once the mutation has occurred.
You are equivocating my choice of language. Perhaps I should have used "relative" rather than "subjective".

A given mutation is not inherently benificial or detrimental; it is the result of the mutation, and the envyronment in which those results occur which determine whether a mutation will result in a benificial, neutral, or harmful change.

As such, one cannot create a "this type of mutation cannot happen" and tie it into "benificial/harmful". Such a statement would require the mechanism of mutation to "know" what the outcome would be and control the mutation accordingly. It's like saying that a die will never land on the number I pick; that's not possible since the die doesn't know what number you are picking.

Anyway, because enzymes rely on the 3D structure for their activity this means that disruption by mutation is very common since the 3D structure depends on the sequence of the AAs which depend on the genetic code which inturn can be altered by mutation. To cut a long story short it's very hard for a mutation to alter an existing enzyme without disrupting the enzymes activity in the process (which puts the organism at a disadvantage).
... unless the new actifity is more useful...

The mutation has to alter the active site and in one go it has to change it so the active site now has a function it didn't have before (ie. Macroevolution).
I've never liked the word "function" here. It's really far more of a result than a function.

However since the previous enzyme played a role in an already existing pathway it must have a duplicate which isn't mutated inorder to still carry the existing pathway.
and it ceratinly can happen that way, when an enzyme-creating gene is replicated and one replicant is mutated. Of course, this also works when the gene didn't create a protien before, or when the new protien fills the function of the old one, or when the function of the old one was not completely neccessairy (especially if the new on offers a greater advantage than the old one) and on and on and on.

I'm only really brushing the complexity of the whole issue, that macroevolution is not a simple thing like microevolution. There are an awful lot of factors that have to be sastified at the same time inorder that macroevolution be possible.
All you really seem to have said is "it's unlikely to have a protien change with a positive outcome on the organism", which is akin to "most mutations are not positive".
 

Endless

Active Member
Because it makes the exact same mutation in the exact same critter either "macroevolution" or "not macroevolution" based on where the critter happens to be at the time.
That's impossible.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Endless said:
Macro-evolutionThe mutation has to alter the active site and in one go it has to change it so the active site now has a function it didn't have before (ie. Macroevolution).
I've never heard anyone define macroevolution like this. A single point mutation has never constituted macrevolutionary development in anything I've read. (Further, point mutations don't always alter enzyme specificity, especially in protein conformations highly resistant to 'hard-failure'. Most likely a decline in Vmax and kM).
 

Endless

Active Member
Hi Jaiket,

The way it can be thought of is that microevolution consists of genetic recombination (through breeding), natural selection acting on this and also mutation. However all that is being affected is the existing genetic material - by this i mean, the size, the colour of the organism etc and the absense/removal of genes leading to physical changes in the organism. But no matter how much you cause these changes you won't get macroevolution - ie. the creature will not get new genetic information allowing it to have things and do things it couldn't do before.
The only way we can get macroevolution is via mutation which in turn is acted on by the environment (natural selection) as this is the only way new genes with new functions can come into being.
I described how this could come about in the previous post under the heading macroevolution. I also outlined the difficulties too.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
ie. the creature will not get new genetic information allowing it to have things and do things it couldn't do before.
What's "do things"? Would a fish being able to swim places it could not before constitute "do things"? Would an extra set of wings on a fly constitute "have things"? What things can a person do that a chimp cannot? What things does a person have that a chimp does not?
 

Endless

Active Member
What i wrote there is about as simple as i can make it :)

What's "do things"? Would a fish being able to swim places it could not before constitute "do things"? Would an extra set of wings on a fly constitute "have things"? What things can a person do that a chimp cannot? What things does a person have that a chimp does not?
You are grossly oversimplifying. An extra set of wings on a fly is only an arrangement of existing genetic material in the fly - simply a duplication. This on its own is not a mechanism of macroevolution.
Let me put it this way - say we have the fly which will eventually via evolution become a wasp (just off the top of my head). If we have only duplication and recombination of the existing genetic material will the fly become a wasp? The answer should obviously be no.
What if we have mutation of existing genetic material leading to 'inactivation' and subsequent removal of genes by natural selection. Will that cause the fly to become a wasp? The answer again is no - because the fly is losing genetic material. These mechanisms are mechanisms of microevolution - because they cannot give rise to macroevolution, ie. the fly becoming a wasp.
So what is needed for the fly to become a wasp - for simplicities sake lets just say that it needs a sting with the venom gland. Now what is the mechanism by which the fly can get this? The only mechanism is via mutation of existing genetic material resulting in new genetic information that gives rise to the structures that the fly previously did not have - in this case the new genetic information which would give rise to the sting. So mutation which gives rise to this new genetic information is what we would call a macro-evolutionary mechanism.

Does that help show the difference between macro-evolution and micro-evolution?

One type of mechanism no matter how much you let it happen will not cause a creature to change into a completely new creature. The other type of mechanism if it happens will cause a creature to change into a completely new creature because it provides the new information.
 

Fade

The Great Master Bates
Endless said:
What i wrote there is about as simple as i can make it :)
You are grossly oversimplifying. An extra set of wings on a fly is only an arrangement of existing genetic material in the fly - simply a duplication. This on its own is not a mechanism of macroevolution.
Let me put it this way - say we have the fly which will eventually via evolution become a wasp (just off the top of my head). If we have only duplication and recombination of the existing genetic material will the fly become a wasp? The answer should obviously be no.
And right here is where you make your mistake.

Endless said:
Does that help show the difference between macro-evolution and micro-evolution?
Not in the slightest.
There is no difference between macro and micro evolution in terms of mechanism. If you want to pick hairs then the only difference is time.

Endless said:
One type of mechanism no matter how much you let it happen will not cause a creature to change into a completely new creature. The other type of mechanism if it happens will cause a creature to change into a completely new creature because it provides the new information.
I would argue that a fly with more wings/legs/heads than our current definition of a fly would be a completely new species. Remember that species is only our arbitrary definition of the differences between the specimen being discussed.
 

Endless

Active Member
Fade, i don't really think you grasp how evolution works. If you do understand then please explain the following:

And right here is where you make your mistake.
You said this to this: If we have only duplication and recombination of the existing genetic material will the fly become a wasp? The answer should obviously be no.

So show me that by only duplication and recombination of existing genetic material in a fly we can get the new structure - a sting in a wasp. We aren't even talking about mutations here, but obviously you must know something i don't to say i have made a mistake in my assertion here.
 

Fade

The Great Master Bates
Endless said:
Fade, i don't really think you grasp how evolution works. If you do understand then please explain the following:


You said this to this: If we have only duplication and recombination of the existing genetic material will the fly become a wasp? The answer should obviously be no.

So show me that by only duplication and recombination of existing genetic material in a fly we can get the new structure - a sting in a wasp. We aren't even talking about mutations here, but obviously you must know something i don't to say i have made a mistake in my assertion here.
The presumption that a fly would/could turn into a wasp is where you have made the mistake.

From what you have argued thus far I would suggest that it is you who doesn't grasp how evolution works.
 

Endless

Active Member
The presumption that a fly would/could turn into a wasp is where you have made the mistake.
Nice dodge. It actually doesn't make a button of difference to what we are discussing whether a fly did evolve into a wasp or not - you put a dinosaur as a fly and the wasp as the bird then, and instead of the sting put feathers or something like that. What we are discussing here is the mechanism by which a creature can evolve a new structure - one that it didn't have before like the sting.
So again i put my question to you:

So show me that by only duplication and recombination of existing genetic material in a fly we can get the new structure - a sting in a wasp.
There's no information being added to the existing genetic material by duplication or recombination that could lead to a new structure such as the sting is there? Yet both duplication and recombination are mechanisms of evolution...
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
actually wasps are related to ants rather than flys... you would have to make your fly more ant like first. ;)

However the base of the family Hymeboptera are the Sawflys and Horntails(wood wasp)... not to far to go between them and Wasps.

wa:do
 

Fade

The Great Master Bates
Well for starters the same genetic code used to create scales in dinosaurs/reptiles only needs minor tweaking to result in feathers. Not to mention all the other similarities between dinosaurs and birds. And don't forget the simple fact that some dinosaurs have been shown to have feathers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurs
 

Fade

The Great Master Bates
painted wolf said:
actually wasps are related to ants rather than flys... you would have to make your fly more ant like first. ;)

However the base of the family Hymeboptera are the Sawflys and Horntails(wood wasp)... not to far to go between them and Wasps.

wa:do
Hymenoptera. :D
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Let me put it this way - say we have the fly which will eventually via evolution become a wasp (just off the top of my head). If we have only duplication and recombination of the existing genetic material will the fly become a wasp? The answer should obviously be no.
What about a chimp becoming a person? You keep avoiding that one? What can we do that chimps cannot? What isn't "recombination of exiting material"?

Less hair? Shorter arms? Longer legs? Relocated thumb? Smaller jaw? Bigger brain? None of these is "new".

What if we have mutation of existing genetic material leading to 'inactivation' and subsequent removal of genes by natural selection.
Ok. What if we have mutation leading to the 'activation' and subsequent propigation of genes?

Does that help show the difference between macro-evolution and micro-evolution?
No, it really doesn't. Nor is it consistant with your earlier claim regarding protiens. You started with a protien change, then required it to be universally positive, then required it to make a "new function".
 

Endless

Active Member
I can see that this is going to take some time :)

Ok let me look at this from a new perspective with you guys. Lets take the chimp as the example.

Less hair? Shorter arms? Longer legs? Relocated thumb? Smaller jaw? Bigger brain? None of these is "new".
Do you agree that you could very well be describing a human being in what you wrote above? I hope you would say 'yes' because all of the above can happen to a human. What is a good way to quantify the differences between organism - i mean at the scientific level do they merely look at the physical makeup (phenotype) of the creature and compare it with another creature, or is there another thing they use to look at the differences between creatures and why?
 
Top