Prophets prior to Jesus

[rational experiences]

History of using the Temple science in your own Holy land as technology is aligned to the pyramid builders. Owning a portion of the technology provided evidence of historic science/occult reasoning about an argument between the Temple owners, and the pyramid builders in the scripture. Who claimed to be heard as speaking information, which can only be recorded male science memories AI heard after the fact. Arguing over who is correct in the use technology.

For you cannot detail destruction until the event destruction occurred, so the information about science infers "looking back" being evil, and warnings about never look back. Scientific inference. To remodel or copy what has occurred before.

Which is a Temple on the mountain, Temples on the ground, and the pyramids.

Yet you did. So science said to science that it copied science. Science never said to science that science was copying natural historically. For even the first scientist claim is I first owned created/invented human science. As it never existed before. I am the God inventor/creator scientist, as a human male.

And human males on Earth, the inventor of the states human inferred life presence thinker, the scientist claims self is superior to everyone else. As based on the history, male human group science inventor.

For how can you copy a natural planet history that owns self natural presence in the cosmos, and all you do is live on that body? In reality of egotism in the sciences.

The past said, the flood of the Moses era, fake mountain ^ pyramid that opened up SIN X K constant machine use, holes, flooded and filled in the sink holes, and the flood, just below the feet of the pyramid and Sphinx saved life on Earth.

Scientific law of relativity on Earth as stated by males in science for science.

The flood saved life. By that statement.

Hence if you tried to apply one new science machine beyond the flood, what would happen in Earth relativity as advice that the flood of sink holes filled in?

The water where sink holes exist would evaporate as one past the saving of life....as evidence.

So is the sink hole evidence, covered over by water being revealed, as One reaction past being saved historically?

 

[Harel13]

But considering that Akiva promoted a false messiah as part of a failed revolt against the Romans, it brings into question why anyone should trust his judgement about what should or should not be considered Scripture.

Don't. Shoo, we don't need you.

There's a big difference between Jesus and Bar Kochva: Jesus did absolutely nothing to attempt to fulfill any messianic duty. Rode on a donkey into Jerusalem? Big deal. BK, on the other hand, attempted to rebuild the Judean Kingdom, fought the Romans - the plan was to eventually rebuild the Temple. That's a serious attempt to fulfill the messianic duties as prophecied. He failed - so he's not the messiah. But he's a failed potential messiah, unlike Jesus who was a failed false messiah, as he also took the law into his own hands and attempted to change it, which is not something the messiah is capable of doing and is also one of the signs of a false prophet.

 

[Harel13]

I don't need help in this area, but there are some other areas...

Well, I've heard some Christians solve all problems and questions by praying they go away.

 

[Rise]

Don't. Shoo, we don't need you.

There's a big difference between Jesus and Bar Kochva: Jesus did absolutely nothing to attempt to fulfill any messianic duty. Rode on a donkey into Jerusalem? Big deal. BK, on the other hand, attempted to rebuild the Judean Kingdom, fought the Romans - the plan was to eventually rebuild the Temple. That's a serious attempt to fulfill the messianic duties as prophecied. He failed - so he's not the messiah. But he's a failed potential messiah, unlike Jesus who was a failed false messiah, as he also took the law into his own hands and attempted to change it, which is not something the messiah is capable of doing and is also one of the signs of a false prophet.

You did not refute my point. You actually ignored my point. Nothing you said is relevant to the point I made.

That point was that Bar Kochva was a false messiah - yet Akiva promoted him as the messiah.
And that revolt brought total ruin upon an already battered people.

It reminds me of how, after the exile to Babylon, those left in Judea did evil by leading the people to flee into Egypt. They did so even though Jeremiah warned them they would all die by doing so. Even though they themselves asked Jeremiah what God said to do and they decided Jeremiah must not be speaking from God because they didn't like the answer they got.

They were obviously not spiritually discerning and it led to their total destruction.
But if you had asked them to decide what the canon was then they would have to reject Jeremiah's writings in the end because they accused him of lying to them when they asked what God had to say to them.

So that brings us back to the question I asked, which you ignored:
Why should we regard a man's opinion (Akiva) on what is or is not scripture as authoritative when he played a pivotal role in leading the Jewish people to experience near genocide at the hands of the Romans by telling them to follow a false messiah?

Historically it's heroes of the faith, obviously anointed by God to build up and establish the Jewish people, who appear to have declared for us what is or is not Scripture.

But Akiva was obviously was not spiritually discerning on crucial matters. And his lack of discerning led to the total annihilation of the Jewish nation.

It sounds very much like God judged him and those who followed bar kochva by allowing them to be annihilated. In the same way God judged those in Jeremiahs time who had their heart set on not repenting from their lack of obedience to God. God let their hearts lead them to their own total destruction by their choices.

And in both cases these events came after the destruction of the temple.
It's like God was not finished completing his process of judgement. We often seen in Israel's history that God creates a separation between the good and the evil so that the evil can be judged without also taking out the good in the process.
And in both the wilderness with Moses, and the Babylonian exile, we see the pattern established of judgement coming in more than one wave in order to successively purge the nation of evil progressively instead of all happening at once.
Or, another way to look at it: God is giving people more chances to repent by bringing judgement in progressively worse waves. Hoping that they will learn the lesson from the previous judgements and amend their ways.

That is why the Bar Kochva revolt fits the Biblical pattern of being a continuation of God's judgement upon Judea which began with the destruction of the temple around 70AD.
As far as I know, the Jewish people today don't dispute the idea that they were being judged in 70AD, which is why the nation was taken from them.

Which only further emphasizes why we absolutely should not be listening to anyone who was on the wrong side of God's judgement in history there. Because we're not talking about just some guy being like "oops, I judged wrong there I guess, my bad. I guess we'll do better next time". He was on the wrong side of God's judgement. His decision proves that. His decision led to the complete destruction of the Jewish nation. We have to conclude it was God's intention to allow that to happen as part of his next wave of judgement upon those who had not repented after what happened in 70AD.

And if Akiva was part of those who were caught up in God's continued judgement against the nation of Israel in that time frame, then he has no God given authority to be proclaiming to anyone what is or is not Scripture.

 

[Rival]

That point was that Bar Kochva was a false messiah - yet Akiva promoted him as the messiah.

Believe it or not, Rabbis are human and can be wrong. The thing here is that BK had way more potential to actually be the messiah than Jesus ever had.

 

[Harel13]

You did not refute my point. You actually ignored my point. Nothing you said is relevant to the point I made.

That point was that Bar Kochva was a false messiah - yet Akiva promoted him as the messiah.

I explained to you why calling Bar Kochva a false messiah is incorrect. What more do you want?

 

[Rise]

I explained to you why calling Bar Kochva a false messiah is incorrect. What more do you want?

You're trying to dispute the definition of "false messiah" in a way that doesn't make logical sense on it's face.

Was Bar Kochva the messiah?
No. He was not.

So was he the true messiah?
Obviously not.

What does that make him then?
A false messiah.

Does Bar Kochva stop being a false messiah just because you think you had a good reason to be deceived by him?
No.

So your line of argumentation does nothing to refute my point nor advance your claim.

Whether or not you think you had a good reason to be deceived into following Bar Kochva doesn't change the fact that he was a false messiah.


So that raises the question then, why were some deceived but others weren't?

And what are we to conclude about those who were deceived?

This brings us back to what I said about God's judgement being part of this. Those who were deceived into following Bar Kochva to their complete destruction were obviously under God's judgement, as part of what happened in 70AD previously, so that they could be annihilated by their choices.
This is the pattern we see in Scripture with both Moses in the wilderness and the Babylonian Exile, where the evil are separated from the good in order to be killed off in successive waves of increasing judgement.

Given that Akiva was part of the group judged by God, he has no claim to God given authority to proclaim what is or is not Scripture.

Never in Jewish history prior to that time had writings been recognized as authoritative by people who were wiped out under the judgement of God. It's always been people who were anointed by God to build up and established the nation.

Letting Akiva tell you what is Scripture would be like letting the wicked rulers of Israel decide what Scripture was right before they were killed by the Assyrian invasion that wiped them off the map as a nation.

 

[Rival]

You're trying to dispute the definition of "false messiah" in a way that doesn't make logical sense on it's face.

Was Bar Kochva the messiah?
No. He was not.

So was he the true messiah?
Obviously not.

What does that make him then?
A false messiah.

Does Bar Kochva stop being a false messiah just because you think you had a good reason to be deceived by him?
No.

So your line of argumentation does nothing to refute my point nor advance your claim.

Whether or not you think you had a good reason to be deceived into following Bar Kochva doesn't change the fact that he was a false messiah.


So that raises the question then, why were some deceived but others weren't?

And what are we to conclude about those who were deceived?

This brings us back to what I said about God's judgement being part of this. Those who were deceived into following Bar Kochva to their complete destruction were obviously under God's judgement, as part of what happened in 70AD previously, so that they could be annihilated by their choices.
This is the pattern we see in Scripture with both Moses in the wilderness and the Babylonian Exile, where the evil are separated from the good in order to be killed off in successive waves of increasing judgement.

Given that he was part of the group judged by God, he has no claim to God given authority to proclaim what is or is not Scripture.

The Jewish belief is that there is someone in every generation with the potential to be the Messiah. If a man tries to reach that potential and act on it but fails, he is a failed messiah not a false one. As long as he does everything he's supposed to do (or tries), then he's a failed messiah because he didn't. The minute he starts spewing nonsense like 'Before Abraham was, I am' and 'No-one comes to the Father except through me,' he's a false messiah because he's actively trying to lead Jews astray.

 

[Harel13]

You're trying to dispute the definition of "false messiah" in a way that doesn't make logical sense on it's face.

Was Bar Kochva the messiah?
No. He was not.

So was he the true messiah?
Obviously not.

What does that make him then?
A false messiah.

Does Bar Kochva stop being a false messiah just because you think you had a good reason to be deceived by him?
No.

Ah, now I get it. You're lording over the Jews of the 2nd century with future knowledge. Because you know Bar Kochva failed as a messiah, you feel you know better than those dumb ol' Jews of the past.

What you're missing here is that those ol' Jews thought in Jewish terms and I myself addressed your questions from a Jewish perspective, which differentiates between "failed messiah" and "false messiah". Because of that key difference in perspective, we have no reason not to follow the teachings of Rabbi Akiva despite his mistake, which was only a mistake in retrospect. For this reason we don't see it as any "deceivement" - like your classic Christian perspective. Had I realized you didn't actually care in any way about the Jewish perspective, I wouldn't have bothered replying.

 

[Rise]

The Jewish belief is that there is someone in every generation with the potential to be the Messiah. If a man tries to reach that potential and act on it but fails, he is a failed messiah not a false one. As long as he does everything he's supposed to do (or tries), then he's a failed messiah because he didn't. The minute he starts spewing nonsense like 'Before Abraham was, I am' and 'No-one comes to the Father except through me,' he's a false messiah because he's actively trying to lead Jews astray.

That line of logic represents a lot of mental gymnastics designed to justify why one would continue following someone like Akiva despite them leading the nation to destruction and being on the wrong side of God's judgement.

Let's break down the problems here of why your argument doesn't make sense:


1. You cannot find justification for this belief in Scripture. In fact, Scripture would lead you to conclude the opposite.

What did God say about how you judge a false prophet from a true one?

You judge them by their fruit. Has what they spoken come to pass or not?

If it hasn't, they are a false prophet.

No where does it say "well, they were just a failed prophet. They weren't a false prophet they were just a prophet who failed to live up to their potential".

No, you stoned the false prophet dead.

There's no Biblical reason to conclude that God's standard for Messiah should be any less. Especially considering that being Messiah would necessarily require the ability to hear from God and proclaim it to the people with authority - ie. Also a prophet.

So your belief is not consistent with what we see from God in the Scripture. We don't see anything to suggest God would operate that way.


2. You're ignoring the fact that what happened to Bar Kochva and his followers was clearly God's judgement as a continuation of what happened in 70 AD. Fitting the Biblical patterns established in areas like Israel in the wilderness and the Babylonian Exile of Judea. Or even the Assyrian exile of Israel.

Given that, you have to assess Akiva in light of being part of the group God gave over to judgement and destruction.

Rather than try to assess Akiva as a neutral figure and then try to invent a justification for why his support of Bar Kochva shouldn't be seen as a wrong thing.

That would be no different than you looking at the last wicked leaders of Israel prior to their death and destruction at the hands of Assyria and saying "I still think they were good followers of God whose opinions and decrees should be respected and adhered to".

Can you imagine actually trying to invent reasons why we should continue following the wicked leaders of pre-exile Israel, to invent reasons why their following lies and justifying sin wasn't really a problem afterall? That kind of behavior (trying to justify believing lies and practicing sin, and saying it was ok to do so) is part of what got them judged in the first place.

God judged those people of Israel for a reason. So that they wouldn't be able to poison the successive generations anymore than they already had. We see very clearly that is part of God's purpose in judging part of Israel and Judea throughout history, in order to preserve at least some of the nation alive so that the whole nation won't have to be destroyed.

That's why you don't look to get your canon of Scripture from the wicked leaders of Israel who were judged and destroyed. It's also why you don't look to the Samaritans today for their opinion about what books should be considered Scripture and what shouldn't.

 

[Rival]

1. You cannot find justification for this belief in Scripture. In fact, Scripture would lead you to conclude the opposite.

Don't tell me what I can and can't do.

What did God say about how you judge a false prophet from a true one?

If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

You judge them by their fruit. Has what they spoken come to pass or not?

Well done.

If it hasn't, they are a false prophet.

That's it.

No where does it say "well, they were just a failed prophet. They weren't a false prophet they were just a prophet who failed to live up to their potential".

No, it doesn't.

No, you stoned the false prophet dead.

Yes.

There's no Biblical reason to conclude that God's standard for Messiah should be any less. Especially considering that being Messiah would necessarily require the ability to hear from God and proclaim it to the people with authority - ie. Also a prophet.

Here's the difference, since you didn't seem to grasp it last time:

A false prophet is spreading lies. He's saying things that HaShem never said. He's deliberately deceiving the people. What he says is false; the information he's spouting is false since it did not come from HaShem.

The failed messiah, on the other hand, does almost everything the messiah is supposed to do. He builds a Temple; he brings a sacrifice; he sets up a Sanhedrin and so on. These are things that are supposed to happen, unlike the false prophet who is deliberately saying wrong things; the failed messiah is not deliberately doing any wrong thing he just failed in this particular undertaking.

A false messiah would be one who actively tries leading Israel astray, promises them all kinds of things the messiah isn't meant to do or say, and tries changing the law.

2. You're ignoring the fact that what happened to Bar Kochva and his followers was clearly God's judgement as a continuation of what happened in 70 AD. Fitting the Biblical patterns established in areas like Israel in the wilderness and the Babylonian Exile of Judea. Or even the Assyrian exile of Israel.

You can believe what you like.

Given that, you have to assess Akiva in light of being part of the group God gave over to judgement and destruction.

Oh this again.

Rather than try to assess Akiva as a neutral figure and then try to invent a justification for why he his support of Bar Kochva shouldn't be seen as a wrong thing.

Who's inventing anything? Rabbi Akiva happened to be wrong on an issue. So what?

That would be no different than you looking at the last wicked leaders of Israel prior to their death and destruction at the hands of Assyria and saying "I still think they were good followers of God whose opinions and decrees should be respected and adhered to".

Except it's not anything like that. It's saying an otherwise good human made a mistake.

God judged those people of Israel for a reason. So that they wouldn't be able to poison the successive generations anymore than they already had. We see very clearly that is part of God's purpose in judging part of Israel and Judea throughout history, in order to preserve at least some of the nation alive so that the whole nation won't have to be destroyed.

Whatever bro.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

2. You're ignoring the fact that what happened to Bar Kochva and his followers was clearly God's judgement as a continuation of what happened in 70 AD. Fitting the Biblical patterns established in areas like Israel in the wilderness and the Babylonian Exile of Judea. Or even the Assyrian exile of Israel.

^ and this garbage is why I love the Book of Job.

 

[Rise]

Don't tell me what I can and can't do.

If you claim to be able to do something impossible then I am within my logical rights to state the obvious truth: Which is that you cannot do that which is impossible.

It is impossible for you to find justification in the Bible for your belief that there's a potential messiah in every generation and nobody is at fault for following them to their destruction when it turns out they don't do what the messiah is suppose to.

If you claim you can find such justification in the Bible, then the onus is on you to prove your claim is true by citing the passages which would allow you to do that and explaining why you think they allow you to do it.

If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

You missed an important part:

4 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Here's the difference, since you didn't seem to grasp it last time:

A false prophet is spreading lies. He's saying things that HaShem never said. He's deliberately deceiving the people. What he says is false; the information he's spouting is false since it did not come from HaShem.

The failed messiah, on the other hand, does almost everything the messiah is supposed to do. He builds a Temple; he brings a sacrifice; he sets up a Sanhedrin and so on. These are things that are supposed to happen, unlike the false prophet who is deliberately saying wrong things; the failed messiah is not deliberately doing any wrong thing he just failed in this particular undertaking.

A false messiah would be one who actively tries leading Israel astray, promises them all kinds of things the messiah isn't meant to do or say, and tries changing the law.

I understood what you were trying to claim the first time. What you said now doesn't change the fact that it's still logically incoherent.

Let's consider why:

1. You have no Biblical basis for concluding your belief about the messiah is even true. It's based on rabbinical teachings not found in Scripture. If you can't establish why we should believe your belief about the Messiah could be true then your theory is a non-starter.

2. By your standard, a false prophet can't be a false prophet if they don't intentionally (ie. "deliberately") spread lies. They could sincerely believe that they are speaking on behalf of God.
By your standard they shouldn't be stoned because they aren't false prophets.

False prophets aren't judged by their intentions. They are judged by their actions and results.

3. By your standard, someone whose prophecy is wrong would not be stoned. Even though the Bible clearly says they must be. Only someone claiming to be a prophet who tries to lead people away from God would be stoned - but that's not the only measure of what a false prophet is in the Bible.

4. Even if we assumed for the sake of argument your claims were true that someone could be anointed to be the Messiah but fail to live up to that: If someone is not anointed to be the Messiah by God, then for them to proclaim to be that is to be lying. By any on it's face definition of the word, they would be a false messiah.
So how are you going to know the difference?
You won't. That's the problem.
You'll follow any false messiah who puts on a good show, but God hasn't anointed them.
You have no way of measuring whether or not any of these self-proclaimed messiahs were of God or not by your standards.
You can't measure by their results, like you are commanded to with prophets.

You can believe what you like.
...
Oh this again.

...
Whatever bro.

You have failed to meet the burden of rejoinder.

Your statements don't represent any attempt at offering a counter argument to my points.

So my point stands as unrefuted: Biblically and historically we have every reason to believe that Bar Kochva and Akiva were judged as part of the fall of the temple previous in AD 70 as part of God wiping clean the slate again as he had during the wilderness, Assyrian and Babylonian exiles.

You cannot avoid the rammifications of what that means for you following Akiva.

If it's true then Akiva is on par with those who were judged and killed by God as part of His judgement upon the whole nation, wherein he separated the "good from the bad figs" so that the good might be corrected to continue on in a more righteous path.

Which means for you to follow what Akiva said is equivalent to following what those "bad figs" who were separated for destruction in times past.

Who's inventing anything? Rabbi Akiva happened to be wrong on an issue. So what?

I just told you the "so what".

If the nation of Israel was under judgement, and Akiva was part of the bad group that was separated out for destruction, then you cannot reliably follow anything he said or believed - anymore than you can follow what the wicked leaders of Israel or Judea said and believed before they were killed just prior to exile.

There's a reason you don't look to them for historical guidance about what God said and didn't say: because they couldn't discern the truth in their own time and it led to them being judged unto death.

God has ways of giving his stamp of approval on what is and is not from Him, and He clearly doesn't want us emulating those parts of Israel's history which were specifically separated out and killed off as part of judgement.

He specifically says he makes an example out of them so that others will know they were judged by God and fear God from then on.

You are failling to take the lesson to heart if you justify the judgement of the wicked as "otherwise good people" and just keep following them as though nothing had happened.

Except it's not anything like that. It's saying an otherwise good human made a mistake.

Consider the implications of what you just said.

1. By your standard someone who is otherwise a good human who prophesies wrongly, but sincerely believed they were speaking from God, simply made a mistake.

Well, yes, they did make a mistake, but the ramifications of that mistake are potentially huge which is why the penalty was death.

Likewise, to use your position of religious authority to tell people that someone is the Messiah, when they aren't, is a type of false prophecy - if you are claiming to speak from a position of spiritual authority to declare someone to be the messiah and demanding others follow them. And the consequences of that led to the death of the nation.

2. What do you think allows you to say that Akiva was just a good guy who made a mistake, but all those people who died under God's judgement prior to entering the promised land or going into exile weren't just "otherwise good people who made a mistake"?

 

[Rival]

1. You have no Biblical basis for concluding your belief about the messiah is even true. It's based on rabbinical teachings not found in Scripture. If you can't establish why we should believe your belief about the Messiah could be true then your theory is a non-starter.

Seriously. This again. And again and again and again and again. When will Christians ever listen?

I am only responding to this and ignoring the rest of the drivel you wrote. I have written about and linked several times to what I wrote about where beliefs about the Messiah come from in scripture. Christians refuse to address these points at all. Here they are.

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

Did the Rabbis write Scripture too?

And don't give me this 'He'll do it next time' nonsense.

Or the 'Christians are the new Israel' trope.

 

[Rise]

^ and this garbage is why I love the Book of Job.

Logical fallacy, "Ad Hominem".
Calling a valid argument "garbage" doesn't constitute a refutation of that argument.

You're putting forth a very bold claim that the nation of Israel from AD65-135 was like Job - righteous, pure as snow, just given over to testing.

But we can proven your claim is false.

1. Job had everything returned double after a short period of testing. Judea was utterly destroyed and scattered, and still hasn't recovered after almost 2000 years.

2. You can't deny that there is a Biblical historical pattern of Israel being separated good from bad and then the bad being judged so that the good might continue on in a more righteous path.

Considering that we know as a Biblical fact that this could have been what happened in AD 65-135, we have to look at what the evidence is for that being the case.

3. In light of that, you have no reasons or facts to back up your claim that Judea as a nation in AD 65 was more akin to Job rather than Manasseh or Zedekiah. Let alone that Bar Kochva or Akiva as a group were more like Job than one of the historical bad leaders of Judea.

Which then makes your claim the logical fallacy of "argument by assertion".
Merely claiming that something represents a Job-like situation does't make it so just because you claim is it so. You have to give actual reasons why we should believe that was the case.

 

[Rise]

I am only responding to this and ignoring the rest of the drivel you wrote.

Logical fallacy, "Ad Hominem".
Calling a valid point "drivel" doesn't constitute a refutation of those points.

You have failed the "burden of rejoinder", which requires you to offer a valid counter argument to my valid arguments.

Otherwise you concede that my points stand and you cannot defend your original claims nor refute my arguments.

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

All of that falls under the logical fallacy of "Irrelevant Conclusion".
Because whether or not what you say is true or false is not actually relevant to refuting any of the points I made.

All you've done is given a list of reasons why you think the Messiah hasn't come.

But that doesn't address any of the issues actually in contention here. None of which involved debating whether or not Jesus was the Messiah.

The points I made were:
1. That there is no Biblical basis for what you believe about the Messiah, with regards to how they are selected and how they should be followed.

2. That your beliefs about the messiah are logically incoherent and contradict themselves, for the many reasons I already outlined.

3. Why AD65-130 represents God'd judgement on the nation of Judea, and why that means you should not follow what Akiva said.


Which is why you outlining why you think the Messiah hasn't come is irrelevant to any of the actual points I argued in this thread. It doesn't address any of them.

Did the Rabbis write Scripture too?

You'd need to first define your terms to make sure we're on the same page.
Do you only consider "Scripture" to be the masoretic text (ie. The protestant "Old Testament")?
And what is your definition of a Rabbi?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Logical fallacy, "Ad Hominem".
Calling a valid argument "garbage" doesn't constitute a refutation of that argument.

Nor does it constitute an ad hominem. Whine less.

 

[Rival]

Do you only consider Scripture to be the Old Testament?

The Tanakh.

And what is your definition of a Rabbi?

A man who has achieved his semicha in Rabbinic studies.

Before such modern times and notions, it refers way back to those who recieved their authority from Moshe; and he learnt it from his master who learnt it from Moshe, and he learnt it from his master and so on. This is the chain of transmission.

 

[Rise]

Nor does it constitute an ad hominem. Whine less.

Logical fallacy, "argument by assertion".
Merely asserting that your post did not constitute an ad hominem doesn't make it so just because you assert it is so.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

The reason it falls under Ad Hominem is because you offered no valid counter argument to any of my points. You merely substituted an Ad Hominem in it's place.

If you had made a valid argument about the book of Job then it wouldn't have constituted an Ad Hominem.
But since your reference to job is just an implied "argument by assertion", it doesn't constitute a valid counter argument for the reasons I outlined already.

Therefore, all you did was use Ad Hominem as a way of trying to bolster your Argument by Assertion fallacy, to make up for a lack of actual supportive argumentation for your assertion.

 

[Rise]

A man who has achieved his semicha in Rabbinic studies.

Before such modern times and notions, it refers way back to those who recieved their authority from Moshe; and he learnt it from his master who learnt it from Moshe, and he learnt it from his master and so on. This is the chain of transmission.

Answering your question is not possible based on that definition because it requires knowing two things which you cannot establish through the Bible or even historical records.

Those two things are :
1. That any such line of authority ever was established or existed.
2. That you know who those people were historically so you can see whether or not they wrote any of the Scripture.


However, even if you could do that, I don't see what relevance you think that has to any of the points I made (the points which you are still ignoring).