Prophet Muhammad did not marry a child

[KWED]

The problem with the belief that prophet Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 years old is that some muslims think that since Muhammad married a child then they could also marry a child.

Some children die every year in child birth because they do not have big enought bodies to give birth.

This is indeed a problem. And this problem arises because of Islam's insistence that Muhammad is "the best of creation", the ultimate practical and moral role model for all Muslims to aspire to. Given this, it is pretty difficult to condemn anything that he said or did. Which is why we get such tortured apologetics when his less savoury behaviour comes to light.

 

[KWED]

Who is the scholar you are quoting that translates Annisa as children? Could that even be a scholar or even a layman who could do that?

You have been saying this multiple times, but you never gave a "scholar" who did that.

Ibn Abbas - “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

Al Jalalayn - and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months

Ibn Kathir - The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Maududi - They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age... In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation

So, there's four renowned scholars, three classical and one modern, who all understand 65:4 to be referring to females too young to have started menstruation.
Do you have any scholars of similar standing who clearly state that is does not refer to those too young to have started menstruation?

 

[England my lionheart]

But there is a conflict. The Quran states that Muhammad was an example to humanity which does conflict very much with a Hadith claiming He had sex with a child.

Of course it is typical that those who are biased against Islam and Muslims will cling to such hadiths to attempt to defame Muhammad instead of refer to the Quran, the Word of God which praises Him.

Read this,it doesn’t matter whether I believe the hadith is authentic or not,it doesn’t conflict with the Quran as the age isn’t given in you book.

What does matter is the millions of Muslims who do believe it’s authenticity and a precedent to follow so go and spread the word,it’s wrong to marry children and have intercourse with them,makes me sick to even think about it.

 

[KWED]

Age of Ayeshah (RTA) at the Time of Her Marriage | Javed Ahmad Ghamidi - YouTube

Proof Aisha Was Not 9 Years Old (When She Married Prophet Muhammad) - YouTube
Aisha was not 9 when she got married! - عمر عائشة الحقيقي عند زواجها من النبي - YouTube

Aisha was not a child Her age at the time of Marriage | Mufti Abu Layth - YouTube
Age of Aisha (ra)- Mufti Abu Layth - YouTube

True Age of Aisha. Prophet Muhammad ﷺ did NOT marry a child . Bukhari narration is FALSE! - YouTube

Do you have any sources from authentic Islamic scholars referencing scriptural evidence, rather than just people on YouTube making unsupported assertions?

Also, on debate forums, you are required to present your argument in your own words, not simply post a link to a video where someone else makes an argument (I've had someone post a link to a 2 1/2 hour video as a "response" to my question!). I mean, how do we know that you even understand those arguments yourself?
Do your own work!

 

[KWED]

Okay. Who translated anything to do with the verses in concern as "prepubescent girls"? Please advice.

Every scholar or translator who uses an expression like "too young to have started menstruation" is essentially saying "prepubescent girls". It's what the words mean!

 

[KWED]

So you tend to go with whoever Muslim who supports your view? You don't intend to objectively look at the arguments and the evidences provided by anyone but go with the popular beliefs.

That's an ad populum fallacy mate.

So you dismiss the Islamic concept of "ijma" as an ad pop fallacy!

 

[BrightShadow]

However, it is the claim that he is "the best of creation", a moral and practical role model for all to aspire to, even today, that makes his behaviour problematic. This also applies to his executing prisoners, torturing people to death, owning and trading slaves, etc.

@KWED
You seem to believe the darker side of things (pessimism) ! When you read something on skeptics' and specifically hostile critics' websites you shouldn't believe it at its face value. Contradicting information is out there - you should compare the two and see which one aligns with Islam's primary doctrine (Quran). You should also look at over-all teachings of Islam and then you may see how far those misinformation (propaganda) is taking you.

Some where earlier in a different thread - you questioned Mohammad's existence and now here you are saying - not only he existed but he executed prisoners and tortured people to death etc. You cannot have your cake and eat it too! Even if you have some indication that a prisoner was executed during Muhammad's era - you should know that - in an army - sometimes soldiers make mistake. We don't blame the president directly for it! Do we? So, why are you putting this unsubstantiated blame on Mohammad? If Mohammad did these things then no one would have thought he was a honorable man. No one would have accepted Islam. These things (you mentioned) are against the doctrine he was delivering. You cannot sell something you don't indorse yourself! People would have called him hypocrite!
So, obviously your conclusions are wrong! Whether a bunch of critics are with you - doesn't make your position any stronger. More than a billion people are not continuing to believe in this religion based on deception. Even if some apologists claim to be Muslim - I would question their true base! Evil comes in many faces!

 

[KWED]

Abdul'baha has given a talk ...
"the Arabian father often buried his own daughter alive. "

Not only is there no archaeological or historical evidence to support this claim, it is also refuted by historical evidence, not least from the Quran and other Islamic sources.
It is claimed that Muhammad improved the lot of Arabian women by restricting the rampant polygamy of pre-Islamic society to only four wives.
If female babies were routinely killed, where did all these women come from to enable the multiple wives? Four would be difficult, let alone many more. If what Bahaullah said was true, there would have been a chronic shortage of wives in pre-Islamic Arabia, and early Islam. One would have ben difficult to manage. And yet, there were enough women to allow men to have so many wives that something had to be done to curtail the practice.

Bahaullah was wrong.

The nation consisted of warring, hostile tribal peoples inhabiting the vast Arabian peninsula, and their business consisted in fighting and pillaging each other, making captive women and children, killing each other.

Again, Bahaullah is wrong. Before Islam, Mecca was a religiously plural site of pilgrimage for many different beliefs, all coexisting peacefully. Caravans used to travel the length and breadth or Arabia with little or no military protection.
Ironically, it was actually after Muhammad introduced the supremacist, expansionist ideology of Islam that the fighting and pillaging increased.

As I have said many times, if you took a more open-minded approach and consulted more sources than just the platitudes of some bloke from 19th century Persia, you might have a better understanding of these issues.

Through His education they reached such a degree of civilization that they subdued and governed continents and nations. What a great civilization was established in Spain by the Muslims! What a marvelous civilization was founded in Morocco by the Moors! What a powerful caliphate or successorship was set up in Baghdad! How much Islam served and furthered the cause of science!

This sounds exactly like Victorians justifying the British Empire. "Look how we educated the savage and improved their lot. Baah!"

The distortion of the intent of the Quran comes from lustfull men that cannot control their own urges.

Actually, it seems to come from people uncomfortable with what it actually says.[/QUOTE]

 

[KWED]

Can you please let me know how all this is relevant to the thread topic?

Thanks in advance.

When deflection and distraction fail, try a bit of whataboutery. Or a lot of it!

 

[KWED]

@KWED
You seem to believe the darker side of things (pessimism) !

I am simply accepting what the Quran and sunnah say, in an Islamic context. Whether is is nice or nasty is irrelevant.
When a hadith says that Muhammad said giving a thirsty dog water cancels your sin, I accept it.
When a hadith says that Muhammad married a six year old and had sex with her when she was 9, I accept it.
(Not as historical facts, but as Islamic facts).

When you read something on skeptics' and specifically hostile critics' websites you shouldn't believe it at its face value.

Oh dear, not this approach again.
I have read it all in the Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir. It is important for you to realise that.

Some where earlier in a different thread - you questioned Mohammad's existence and now here you are saying - not only he existed but he executed prisoners and tortured people to death etc. You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

Those are two entirely different contexts.
In a strictly historical context, it is not certain that the Islamic character of Muhammad did exist as described in the Quran and sunnah. He may well have done but some historians have made rational arguments against. My pointing this out does not mean I agree with it.
However, when arguing about the character of Muhammad in an Islamic context, I not only assume he existed, but assume that the Quran and sunnah are accurate. This does not mean that I actually believe they are. It is purely for the purposes of debate.

This is such a fundamental and simple concept that I'm surprised that I have to explain it to you.

Even if you have some indication that a prisoner was executed during Muhammad's era

It is hinted at in the Quran, and explicitly described in hadith and Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah.

- you should know that - in an army - sometimes soldiers make mistake. We don't blame the president directly for it! Do we? So, why are you putting this unsubstantiated blame on Mohammad?

The texts have him ordering or approving the killings himself.

If Mohammad did these things then no one would have thought he was a honorable man.

Why not? It was common practice at the time to kill all those who were not valuable for ransom or desirable for slavery.
The problem is not because he did it then. It is because Muslims claim that he is the perfect moral and practical role model for all Muslims to aspire to.

These things (you mentioned) are against the doctrine he was delivering.

Nonsense. Not only does the Quran not say that you must not execute prisoners, 8:57 says to deal harshly with prisoners taken in battle to deter others who might oppose you.

You cannot sell something you don't indorse yourself!

Many salespeople do it.

Whether a bunch of critics are with you - doesn't make your position any stronger.
More than a billion people are not continuing to believe in this religion based on deception.

I do hope this irony was deliberate. It's brilliant!

 

[KWED]

[The Quran] says very vividly that the Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage should be with maturity, mature enough for the girl to be financially independent and to be able to handle finances on her own (inheritance), full physical growth, and no childishness.

Ooh, this should be good...
Which verses?
Be specific.

 

[KWED]

Impartial? You think your groupie you called Shakeel, whoever that is, is impartial? Can you prove it? Hilarious.

So despite not knowing anything about them, you automatically reject them as impartial?
As you say, hilarious.

 

[KWED]

You are wrong. The Quran was written down when Prophet Muhammad was alive.
Most islamic scholars agree with that

Nope. Simply not true. Some individual verses had been written down and were kept by different people but not all of it, in one place. The Quran was first compiled and written down as one book during Abu Bakr's caliphate - after Muhammad had died. This was because a number of the people who had memorised it were being killed in battles and he was worried that parts may be lost if it was not written down in its entirety. This is the narrative you will find in any Islamic source. Ask your imam.
It is not a matter of contention or debate between Muslims and sceptics. It is simply an accepted fact (as much as anything from the period can be known).

 

[KWED]

"SQUIRREL!"

Where!?

 

[KWED]

Bogus.
Bogus.
Bogus.
You are absolutely ignorant.

Normally, I dismiss your arguments are mere deflection, of little substance.
However, this time I think you may have us all stumped.
Chapeau!

 

[Link]

The only authoritative scripture in Islam is the Quran. All else is here say and stories which cannot be proven. Opinion

I believe Misbahal Shariah has no falsehood in it. And the content although below God's style, words, and doesn't come close to Quran, is also words that doesn't befit the fabricators to be able to fabricate for "It does not suit them nor are they capable, indeed they are from the hearing far removed".

Ahlulbayt (A) also speak in words beyond capability of fabricators often. The shorter the words, the harder to prove to being from them. The longer the recording of their words, the easier it's to prove it's from them (over all, though some distortions can take place within that).

 

[Link]

It is simply an accepted fact (as much as anything from the period can be known).

Shiites don't believe in it.

 

[KWED]

The Quran does not state Aisha’s age and the ONLY authoritative scripture in Islam is the Holy Quran which is believed to be the Word of God. You are quoting hadiths not authentic authoritative Islamic texts of which only the Quran can claim to occupy that exalted station not hadiths.

Any hadith which the Quran does not support is considered false, inaccurate, incorrect or fabricated. The official position in Islam is that the Quran is the sole authority not hadiths or opinions. And in Authoritative Islamic scripture, the Quran we read:

As a Bahai, you are not in a position to tell Muslims what they believe.
For all but Quranists (who most Muslims condemn as heretics, for rejecting the hadith), the sunnah is a vital and integral element of Islam. To claim otherwise is either ill-informed or dishonest.

Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

You do realise that this verse is telling Muslims to follow the sunnah of Muhammad? It is basically an instruction to accept the hadith.

 

[KWED]

The only authoritative scripture in Islam is the Quran. All else is here say and stories which cannot be proven. Opinion is not evidence neither are hadiths.

You do realise that the Quran is just "hearsay that cannot be proven"?
Muhammad said that an angel spoke to him. He then said what that angel said. No one else was there to witness it. The definition of "hearsay that cannot be proven".

And your approach to the hadith is a bit like an Ahmadi telling you that Bahaullah's writings are not an acceptable part of Bahai scripture. Would you just accept that? Or would wonder what on earth he thought he was talking about?

 

[Link]

@KWED, you wish to stay at a superficial level of trusting whatever authorities colonialists want us to accept in Islam and make popular. That's fine if that is your reliance, but honestly, you truly are narrow minded, and not worth debating, because you are so hard headed in how you approach Islam.

If you want to tell all Muslims - Saudi Arabia dictates Islam and we should follow the discourse their money trail has caused, that's fine. But it holds no weight to people with brains.

You truly and all those who follow such ways, deserve what you surely will get.