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Proof of God question

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?
 

chinu

chinu
I can't figure the name at the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?
Honestly, what made you asking this question ? :)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?

The word "prove" is the problem. It is undefined and rests on a ****load of assumptions, for which "prove" changes with other assumptions.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?


It’s definitely not an oxymoron. Oxymorons have only two or three words that oppose each other, i.e. “pretty ugly” “a little pregnant” “Anarchy rules”

It’s not a complete sentence or thought. If you begin a phrase with “if,” then you need to follow it with a “then” phrase. Where is the “then?”

Is the “and” supposed to be a “then,” or are we really working with half a thought?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?
All experience proves is that it's a human thing.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

The second part sounds like the "you can't prove a negative" approach for (agnostic) atheism. If you cannot prove a negative, therefore no experience could prove God does not exist.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It’s definitely not an oxymoron. Oxymorons have only two or three words that oppose each other, i.e. “pretty ugly” “a little pregnant” “Anarchy rules”

It’s not a complete sentence or thought. If you begin a phrase with “if,” then you need to follow it with a “then” phrase. Where is the “then?”

Is the “and” supposed to be a “then,” or are we really working with half a thought?

It wasn't my quote. The idea is of you can prove say love exist by experience love without that experience proves love doesn't exist.

In other words existence of something depends on ones experience. That's how I read it.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?
Neither is valid. Children experience Santa Claus when they gifts "From: Santa" and sit on his lap at the mall. This proves Santa exists. Children experience the Tooth Fairy when they leave a tooth under their pillow and get money over night. This proves the TF exists.

No. These experiences validate beliefs. There is a more complete explanation, and the same applies to religious experiences.

And not having a certain kind of experience is just not having a certain kind of experience.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?
It just tells me a lot about the level of desperation people have to have even the slightest evidence for a God.

Something that would, even if successful, just cover the first two meters of the 42 Km marathon that is needed to lead them to evidence of the God they believe in: Jesus, Allah, Apollo, and such.

Ciao

- viole
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In other words existence of something depends on ones experience. That's how I read it.

No ideally, our experience is irrelevant to what exists.
It puts too much control over what exists into the hands in the individual.

However, we shouldn't claim the existence of something we have no experience with.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
The idea is of you can prove say love exist by experience love without that experience proves love doesn't exist.
In other words existence of something depends on ones experience. That's how I read it.

Using “love” as an example is a very good illustration.

The first half makes sense because if you feel love/God and experience it, then it is evidence to a person that love/God exists. The second half isn’t necessarily true because something can still exist even if a person cannot feel it or hasn’t experienced it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I can't figure the name (found it @ 9-10ths_Penguin) the moment but an RF member posed this thought:

If experience proves God exists and no experience proves God does not exist.

Sounds like an oxymoron to be honest.

Does this make sense to you and do they both invalidate themselves?
I didn't say anything quite like that.

My point in the other thread was just that if we're going to consider gut feelings to be evidence, it's important to remember that gut feelings work not oy for but also against God, depending on whose gut feelings we're considering.

Personally, I don't think someone's feeling of "God's presence" or whatnot is evidence of anything but their own theism, but even if we decide that personal feelings like these are meaningful, it would be hypocritical to accept the feelings of one side but not of the other.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I didn't say anything quite like that.

My point in the other thread was just that if we're going to consider gut feelings to be evidence, it's important to remember that gut feelings work not oy for but also against God, depending on whose gut feelings we're considering.

Personally, I don't think someone's feeling of "God's presence" or whatnot is evidence of anything but their own theism, but even if we decide that personal feelings like these are meaningful, it would be hypocritical to accept the feelings of one side but not of the other.

I think feelings are evidence just as falling in love or anger at a coworker for talking behind his back because the response from the emotions good or bad is real.

Like the evidence I'm in pain is because I hit my toe two years ago. But if someone asked me for evidence years later I can't go back to where I hut my toe. All I can do is show them the mark and explain how painful it felt.

A lot of atheist want to know the chair, house, place, and time of the event.

Most believers tend to put more emphasis on the pain and emotions from it is proof that pain is real despite not being evidence to prove it.

I get what you're saying though. I think asking for objective evidence for a subjective belief is counterproductive.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think feelings are evidence just as falling in love or anger at a coworker for talking behind his back because the response from the emotions good or bad is real.

Like the evidence I'm in pain is because I hit my toe two years ago. But if someone asked me for evidence years later I can't go back to where I hut my toe. All I can do is show them the mark and explain how painful it felt.

A lot of atheist want to know the chair, house, place, and time of the event.

Most believers tend to put more emphasis on the pain and emotions from it is proof that pain is real despite not being evidence to prove it.

I get what you're saying though. I think asking for objective evidence for a subjective belief is counterproductive.
This is a good example. Of course feelings do not mean what is believed is true in regards to ideas. The book Emotional Intelligence explains how people can assign meaning to ideas (true or false) and the feelings validate the experience. It's like how someone can become attached to an ordinary object like a candle from Walmart. The candle isn't special itself, and it's not special to anyone except you. It might be special to you because you brought it 20 years ago on your birthday, and it was a fun day. The candle is a reminder of that day and those emotions.

The same can happen with religious beliefs, and that is how religious beliefs can become meaningful to person over time just due to the repetition of the thoughts and meaning. This doesn't mean the ideas are true or meaningful to others.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
My point in the other thread was just that if we're going to consider gut feelings to be evidence, it's important to remember that gut feelings work not oy for but also against God, depending on whose gut feelings we're considering

True. I think that's were I was leading but adding that because gut feelings aren't reliable why would one ask religious for objective evidence?

Isn't that counterproductive?


Personally, I don't think someone's feeling of "God's presence" or whatnot is evidence of anything but their own theism, but even if we decide that personal feelings like these are meaningful, it would be hypocritical to accept the feelings of one side but not of the other.

True.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
No ideally, our experience is irrelevant to what exists.
It puts too much control over what exists into the hands in the individual.

However, we shouldn't claim the existence of something we have no experience with.
Do you have any experience with atomic and subatomic particles (for example)?
 
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