Progressive baptism

[moorea944]

I believe that is false doctrine that has no foundation in truth.

What part of what I posted do you believe is wrong. Maybe I can explain it better.......

 

[Shiranui117]

Eph 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Since there is only one baptism, it must be the one that saves. If John's baptism saves, there is not need for Jesus;/ baptism.

Then why did Philip only baptize the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 with water? Heck, the Holy Spirit took Philip away before he could even seal the Ethiopian eunuch with the Holy Spirit! What was the Spirit thinking?! Now that eunuch will never get saved, since he was never sealed with the Holy Spirit! Unless there's more to this dynamic than what we're currently considering... Hold that thought.

Water does not cause the sealing of the Holy spirit.

And I never said that it did. Baptism's purpose was to cleanse and renew the new Christian, bringing them into the Church. The Holy Spirit was sealed into the believer in a separate ritual that was nonetheless still practiced at the same time as baptism (first you get baptized, then immediately after you are sealed with the Holy Spirit). The Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics still practice their baptisms and Chrismations in this manner.

Here again my original statement:

According to Scripture, it is necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16), it washes away sins (Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38-42), makes us reborn (John 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:17), frees us from bondage to sin and death (the entirety of Romans 6), and brings us into the Church which is the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).​

The purpose of baptism is not to seal the believer with the Holy Spirit. Nowhere will you find that in the New Testament. The purpose of baptism is to prepare the heart for the Holy Spirit. You sweep out the soul's house of all its dirt and debris, you renovate it and make it good as new for a new occupant. That occupant will be the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the first step in the long road of salvation, and yet baptism in itself already saves you. More on that later...

That comes when one believes the gospel of their salvation(Eph 1:13). Until one is baptized with the Holy Spirit, they see no need for baptism. What we tgeah is foolishness to the natural man and he cannot understand it(I Cor 2:14)

You have not proven yet that there was a practice of a "spiritual baptism" that was done separately from baptism with water.

You also have to account for the fact that the Samarians had been baptized before they received the Holy Spirit through laying-on of hands.

First, you assume every mention of baptism refers to water baptism.

That's because of the fact that every mention of baptism before the 18th century refers to water baptism. Nobody before the 1600's or 1700's ever conceived of a "water baptism" and a "spirit baptism" as being two separate kinds of baptism. I think I understand why you're saying what you are about the "real" baptism with the Holy Spirit, but that is not a baptism, technically speaking. Christianity has had separate terms to describe what you're talking about for 2,000 years: Confirmation, Chrismation, sealing someone with the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit uses no water. It is done without hands like our spiritual circumcision is(Col 2:11).

Second, water is a symbol for God word(Eph 5:26). It is God's word that cleanses us,not water(Jn 15:3).

Which is exactly why the Church has used the baptismal waters as the outward sign for what spiritually happens at a baptism for 2,000 years.

WE need our inside to be cleansed. That is where God looks for our compliance to what He says. Our outside gets dirty every day.

Naturally. And that is why baptism purifies our inside.

Do you really think everyone who is baptized with water is saved?

Do you really think everyone who is sealed with the Holy Spirit is saved?

The water in Jn 3:5 is God's word. The other verse you mention have nothing to do with baptism.

You mean all the verses that say "baptized" right there in the verses?

In Acts 8:17, they had not been properly baptized because they had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Act 8:17 is correcting this. In fact it implies they were not saved because they were only baptized with water.

The Holy Spirit had fallen on none of them. But as to whether they were "saved", or not, that depends on how you want to define the word "saved". Christians for the first 1500 years thought of salvation as a road. As long as you are on that road towards salvation, you are already saved. But if you stray from that road, you are damned. And yet if you come to your senses and, with the grace of God, get back on that road towards salvation, you are again saved.

You were saved when you first started walking that road by accepting God, you were saved when you accepted Baptism, you were saved when you received the Holy Spirit at your Chrismation, you were saved when you repented after having sinned. You are being saved by living a Christian life. You are being saved by having faith. You are being saved by atoning for your sins. You are being saved by growing closer to God. You are being saved by being brought to perfection in faith. And, lastly, you will be saved when God welcomes you into His Eternal Kingdom at the Last Day.

I understand that many Protestants think of being "saved" as a static, non-evolving state of being. The paperwork is signed, and that's that. Salvation is yours.

 

[omega2xx]

Then why did Philip only baptize the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 with water? Heck, the Holy Spirit took Philip away before he could even seal the Ethiopian eunuch with the Holy Spirit! What was the Spirit thinking?! Now that eunuch will never get saved, since he was never sealed with the Holy Spirit! Unless there's more to this dynamic than what we're currently considering... Hold that thought.

The moment he believed, he was baptized with the Holy Spirit. The water baptism was his public testimony that he had made Jesus his savior. It is not what saved him.

And I never said that it did. Baptism's purpose was to cleanse and renew the new Christian, bringing them into the Church. The Holy Spirit was sealed into the believer in a separate ritual that was nonetheless still practiced at the same time as baptism (first you get baptized, then immediately after you are sealed with the Holy Spirit). The Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics still practice their baptisms and Chrismations in this manner.

First, notice why a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit. The sealing is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.Does that happen before or after a water baptism? Don't forget that sealing last until the day of redemption(Eph 4:30). So if the person is never water baptized, they are sill saved. Second, Water baptism does not cleans the inside where it is necessary. Mediate on I Pet 3:21 after it says "not."

Here again my original statement:

According to Scripture, it is necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16), it washes away sins (Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38-42), makes us reborn (John 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:17), frees us from bondage to sin and death (the entirety of Romans 6), and brings us into the Church which is the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).​

Mk 16:16: Which came first the believing or the baptism? What happens when a person believes the gospel of their salvation. Also you assume baptism always means water baptism, but John tells us that is not so.

I answered the other verses you quote. It will do no good to repeat what I said.

>>The purpose of baptism is not to seal the believer with the Holy Spirit.

Once someone becomes a believer, they are automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit---Read Eph 1:13.prayerfully and carefully.

Nowhere will you find that in the New Testament.

It does if you understand it and are not obcessed with water baptism.

The purpose of baptism is to prepare the heart for the Holy Spirit. You sweep out the soul's house of all its dirt and debris, you renovate it and make it good as new for a new occupant. That occupant will be the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the first step in the long road of salvation, and yet baptism in itself already saves you. More on that later...

You completely ignore the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which John said Jesus would do. What is more important, the baptism of man of the baptism of Jesus. So which one is the "one baptism" of Ehp 4:5? The purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is so we can have a communion with our Savior. Now He can speak to us through the Holy Spirit, and Now we can understand spiritual truths. Water baptism is a public testimony to those present, that you have accepted Jesus as Savior.

You have not proven yet that there was a practice of a "spiritual baptism" that was done separately from baptism with water.<<

John The Baptizer separated them. Do you really not understand that?

You also have to account for the fact that the Samarians had been baptized before they received the Holy Spirit through laying-on of hands.

And you have to recognized why they were rebaptized.

That's because of the fact that every mention of baptism before the 18th century refers to water baptism. Nobody before the 1600's or 1700's ever conceived of a "water baptism" and a "spirit baptism" as being two separate kinds of baptism. I think I understand why you're saying what you are about the "real" baptism with the Holy Spirit, but that is not a baptism, technically speaking. Christianity has had separate terms to describe what you're talking about for 2,000 years: Confirmation, Chrismation, sealing someone with the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc.
Then they did not understand the Bible---All one has to do is read Matt 3:11. If the Bible calls what Jesus does for us a baptism, who is man to say it is not a real baptism.Why was it necessary for those in Corinth to be baptized again and without any water? They had already been baptized with water.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit uses no water. It is done without hands like our spiritual circumcision is(Col 2:11). Which is exactly why the Church has used the baptismal waters as the outward sign for what spiritually happens at a baptism for 2,000 years.

As long as you refuse to separate the 2 baptism, you will never understand the purpose of either baptism.


Naturally. And that is why baptism purifies our inside.
Do you really think everyone who is sealed with the Holy Spirit is saved?

I can't believe a Christian would say such a thing. Look at the verse and notice what caused the sealing. Now look a E[ph 4:30 and see how long it last. Now figure out if they are never baptized with water, if they are saved. What denomination do you belong to?


You mean all the verses that say "baptized" right there in the verses?


The Holy Spirit had fallen on none of them. But as to whether they were "saved", or not, that depends on how you want to define the word "saved". Christians for the first 1500 years thought of salvation as a road. As long as you are on that road towards salvation, you are already saved. But if you stray from that road, you are damned. And yet if you come to your senses and, with the grace of God, get back on that road towards salvation, you are again saved.

Those of the reformation did not think that, especially Calvin.

You were saved when you first started walking that road by accepting God, you were saved when you accepted Baptism, you were saved when you received the Holy Spirit at your Chrismation, you were saved when you repented after having sinned. You are being saved by living a Christian life. You are being saved by having faith. You are being saved by atoning for your sins. You are being saved by growing closer to God. You are being saved by being brought to perfection in faith. And, lastly, you will be saved when God welcomes you into His Eternal Kingdom at the Last Day.

None of that is Biblical. We are saved by God's grace, not by works(Eph 2:8-9) Sin does not cause us to lose our salvation or Jesus is a liar when He said "never die," "live forever," "eternal life." Also God has promise to finish what He has started in us(Phil 1:6 & Heb 12:2).

I understand that many Protestants think of being "saved" as a static, non-evolving state of being. The paperwork is signed, and that's that. Salvation is yours.

We believe it because that is what the Bible clearly teaches. It is a shame when churches teach we can lose our salvation. If we can lose our salvation, I Jn5:13 is not true. Chew on that for awhle.,

 

[GreenKepi]

If salvation is determined by one instant of earnest, complete believing, then perhaps salvation cannot be lost, but if salvation is understood to be an ongoing relationship between an earnest believer and his God, then it is possible to lose salvation by losing the relationship.

The saved relationship is defined by a covenant between God and the believer. Once initiated the covenant continues by faithful fulfillment of the terms of the covenant by both parties. Such continuation yields the blessing that is one promise of the covenant. Failure in fulfillment invokes the curse that is also one of the promises (Just look how the old Children of Israel behaved in the Old Testament).

Some, however, will choose to forsake that relationship, turning to satisfactions that end with the life of the body. When the clear pattern of a person’s life, its habits and its motivations, no longer show submission to the will of Jesus, then one may conclude that the covenant relationship has ended by the will of the one who no longer believes and seeks a life in His name.

Nothing can take the relationship from a person (Romans 8: 35-39), but that person can let it go.

 

[Muffled]

Becaue the unsaved see no need for repentence. Wht we beleive is foolishness to them and the CANNOT unerstand it(I Cor 2:14).



There is on;y 1 baptism mentioned in Ephesians(4:5). The sealing in 1:13 is not a baptism and this sealing last forever(4:30).

I believe it says the sealing comes by belief. I don't doubt for a minute that belief can come before at or after baptism.

 

[omega2xx]

I believe it says the sealing comes by belief. I don't doubt for a minute that belief can come before at or after baptism.

Baptism without belief is of no value.l You are right the sealing comes from believing the gospel of our salvation. That is the indwelling of the Holy Soirit and may be the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I need some more study on that passage.

 

[Muffled]

What part of what I posted do you believe is wrong. Maybe I can explain it better.......

You said "Your not talking about laying of hands that the apostles did... That died out with the apostles. There are no Holy Spirit gifts like before now. We dont need that, we have the complete bible, which they didnt have."

I believe I have heard of laying hands on a minister as part of ordination and I have seen healing done by anointing with oil on the hands. I am not sure what you thought died out or even why it should.

I believe you have no evidence to support that view.

I don't believe that is true. If anything this world has more needs than it ever had before.

I believe that doesn't change anything.

 

[Muffled]

If salvation is determined by one instant of earnest, complete believing, then perhaps salvation cannot be lost, but if salvation is understood to be an ongoing relationship between an earnest believer and his God, then it is possible to lose salvation by losing the relationship.

The saved relationship is defined by a covenant between God and the believer. Once initiated the covenant continues by faithful fulfillment of the terms of the covenant by both parties. Such continuation yields the blessing that is one promise of the covenant. Failure in fulfillment invokes the curse that is also one of the promises (Just look how the old Children of Israel behaved in the Old Testament).

Some, however, will choose to forsake that relationship, turning to satisfactions that end with the life of the body. When the clear pattern of a person’s life, its habits and its motivations, no longer show submission to the will of Jesus, then one may conclude that the covenant relationship has ended by the will of the one who no longer believes and seeks a life in His name.

Nothing can take the relationship from a person (Romans 8: 35-39), but that person can let it go.

Maybe if once you go God you can never go Mod.

I don't believe it is the covenant that keeps people in Christ since most people break covenant these days. It is simply like living in the ghetto of Chicago with shootings every day as opposed to living in Hawaii. Who would want to go back to the ghetto? The person would have to be insane.

 

[moorea944]

You said "Your not talking about laying of hands that the apostles did... That died out with the apostles. There are no Holy Spirit gifts like before now. We dont need that, we have the complete bible, which they didnt have."

I believe I have heard of laying hands on a minister as part of ordination and I have seen healing done by anointing with oil on the hands. I am not sure what you thought died out or even why it should.

I believe you have no evidence to support that view.

I don't believe that is true. If anything this world has more needs than it ever had before.

I believe that doesn't change anything.

I believe I have heard of laying hands on a minister as part of ordination and I have seen healing done by anointing with oil on the hands. I am not sure what you thought died out or even why it should.

You heard of?..... wow.....
I'm saying that the Holy Spirit gifts died out with the apostles. Gifts that were given was important in that generation. They didnt have the full bible that we have today. The gifts were to show people the power of our Creator and a glimpse of the coming Kingdom. Scripture also tells us that in the kingdom age when our Lord is here, the gift will come back.

I believe you have no evidence to support that view.

That's because you believe in a different doctrine.

I don't believe that is true. If anything this world has more needs than it ever had before.

Yes, but... Read Romans 8. It tells us why God made this world like it is, Why is there so much violence, death, war, etc.... To give us hope of something better. Heb 11 also

If we had a perfect world now, why would we want to hope or want something that will be the same?

Plus, a lot of churches say that they have the Holy Spirit gifts. Speaking in tongues, laying of hands. That is fake. If you listen to them, they are just speaking jibberish. Not even a language. That is NOT speaking of tongues.

 

[Muffled]

You heard of?..... wow.....
I'm saying that the Holy Spirit gifts died out with the apostles. Gifts that were given was important in that generation. They didnt have the full bible that we have today. The gifts were to show people the power of our Creator and a glimpse of the coming Kingdom. Scripture also tells us that in the kingdom age when our Lord is here, the gift will come back.


That's because you believe in a different doctrine.


Yes, but... Read Romans 8. It tells us why God made this world like it is, Why is there so much violence, death, war, etc.... To give us hope of something better. Heb 11 also

If we had a perfect world now, why would we want to hope or want something that will be the same?

Plus, a lot of churches say that they have the Holy Spirit gifts. Speaking in tongues, laying of hands. That is fake. If you listen to them, they are just speaking jibberish. Not even a language. That is NOT speaking of tongues.

I believe you can say it til the day you die but it will never be true and you have no evidence to support that view.

I have thumped the Bible long enough to know that the Bible is not always sufficient. My wife did not come to Jesus by the Bible but through a manifestation of God.

I believe it is because I believe truth supersedes doctrine and any reasonable doctrine must have evidence to support it.

I believe I have a hope in Jesus right now and that is a lot better than thinking that Jesus has left the building.

I believe you have no evidence to support that. I speak in tongues and it is not gibberish. I believe you don't know because you lack experience and have deficiencies in your reasoning.

 

[moorea944]

I believe you can say it til the day you die but it will never be true and you have no evidence to support that view.

I have thumped the Bible long enough to know that the Bible is not always sufficient. My wife did not come to Jesus by the Bible but through a manifestation of God.

I believe it is because I believe truth supersedes doctrine and any reasonable doctrine must have evidence to support it.

I believe I have a hope in Jesus right now and that is a lot better than thinking that Jesus has left the building.

I believe you have no evidence to support that. I speak in tongues and it is not gibberish. I believe you don't know because you lack experience and have deficiencies in your reasoning.

First of all, you do not speak in tongues. Do you know what speaking in tongues is? If everyone in your church speaks English, then first of all, there is no reason for anyone to speak in a different tongue or language. If you went to France, never spoke the French language, and then God gave you the gift of speaking in French so that you could go out and preach the Gospel to the French that don't speak "your" language, that's speaking in tongues. I can tell you right now, you do not speak in tongues. But... if you really think you do, what new language do you speak in that you never spoke before? And does everyone in your church understand that?

 

[Nova2216]

Water baptism is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Done at the same time, not separately. Water baptism is a public testimony to all present that you have given you life to Jesus because something has happened in your life. It does not save

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes when we understand the gospel of our salvation(Eph 1:13). It is the "one baptism of Eph 4:5 and the one that does save, and it saved forever(Eph 4:30).

You said baptism does not save.

The Lord said baptism does now save us in (1Peter 3:21)?

Who is wrong?

You or the Lord ?

 

[Muffled]

I believe that is an interesting view of it but as a progression it seems a bit speculative.

I believe the laying on of hands to not be a necessity but it can be helpful

I am not even sure that the fourth is a baptism but I suppose if the Holy Spirit can be one perhaps it does.

 

[Muffled]

First of all, you do not speak in tongues. Do you know what speaking in tongues is? If everyone in your church speaks English, then first of all, there is no reason for anyone to speak in a different tongue or language. If you went to France, never spoke the French language, and then God gave you the gift of speaking in French so that you could go out and preach the Gospel to the French that don't speak "your" language, that's speaking in tongues. I can tell you right now, you do not speak in tongues. But... if you really think you do, what new language do you speak in that you never spoke before? And does everyone in your church understand that?

I believe you have your own definition of what it is but that doesn't mean God has to go by it and your belief lacks a solid basis.

I believe I have no idea what context the language has and He has never told me.

I don't usually speak in tongues in my church because I believe there is very little understanding of the gifts of the Spirit there and they would not understand it.

I believe it is a gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a different language from the one's I know.

 

[Muffled]

Becaue the unsaved see no need for repentence. Wht we beleive is foolishness to them and the CANNOT unerstand it(I Cor 2:14).



There is on;y 1 baptism mentioned in Ephesians(4:5). The sealing in 1:13 is not a baptism and this sealing last forever(4:30).

I believe Paul is referring to the essence of Christianity. I don't believe he is saying that there are not other baptisms because he ran into some people who were only baptized in John's baptism.