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Problems with Capitalism
- Thread starter buddhist
- Start date
I had no idea you're a capitalist.....welcome aboard!
Super Universe
Defender of God
You think that definition is nebulous? That came from a dictionary. If you don't like dictionary definitions then I'm not going to make up something just to try to please you.
Super Universe
Defender of God
North America and Europe have a direct dependancy on cheap labor? Then how come the US has a minimum wage that is among the highest in the world? China's minimum wage range is about $1-2 an hour.
If Asia were to vanish America and Europe would have major economic crises? Much of our things would stop arriving but our clothing companies would just build plants in Mexico. Problem solved. If Latin America then vanished we would build plants in India.
You think because China makes our clothes and toasters that we can't do it if we had to? We don't have to anymore.
Africa makes almost nothing, they produce oil, precious gems, some coffee, and some tea. There's nothing they have that we can't get anywhere else and even if they did run out of diamonds, so what, it's not like the US would fall apart if the diamond supply suddenly stopped.
Yes, I'm going to argue that the first world is NOT developed by the third world. The US is not just shoes and toasters and jewelry. We're the entertainment capital of the world. We're the major tourists for the world. We're the #1 economy in the world (maybe tied with China now). We're the inventors (too many to list), discoverers (physics/astronomy), voyagers (space, moon, other planets with robots).
To measure capitalist success by what occurs in one country would be misleading? And to discredit our success because of corruption, laziness, and ineptitude in other countries would be better?
Capitalism is a global system but the US economy is not dependant on every other countries production. It's not even dependant on any one, or two, or three other countries. And, if they did try to stop exporting things to us it would hurt them more than it would hurt us. What is produced in other countries that cannot be produced in the US?
Your reference states that money has left third world countries, it doesn't say where exactly it went. It just went out. Maybe that money went into the Swiss Bank? Maybe it went to the Bahamas? Anyway, how is corruption in other countries the fault of the US? The US has laws against bringing stolen money into the US.
I once new a guy from Cameroon, he told me a story. There was a man who had some tractors and trucks. A city paid the man to build a road to another city. The man took the money but he never built the road so the city sued the man to get their money back. In court, the judge listened to the case and then said "I would have kept the money and not built the road too" and decided for the man.
Europe and Australia have much higher minimum wage than America, try to think before you spout nonsense.
Super Universe
Defender of God
I said the US is "among" the highest in minimum wage. Which, it is.
Read slowerrr, slooowerrrrrr.
Super Universe
Defender of God
Because most products consumed in America are not made in America.
Wait... so you're saying the issue would not vanish because you would just start to exploit another continent?
Sounds like what you just argued contradicts itself.
Manufacturing left America for a reason. I didn't say that America couldn't.
You're trying to say that being the entertainment/tourist capital of the world means that the US doesn't imperialistically exploit everywhere?
This doesn't change the 16.3 trillion dollars which flowed from the third world to the first world.
Since when is space a profitable economic sector? SpaceEX makes money by doing trips for NASA but that's all i'm aware of.
Being at the top doesn't make a country not imperialist, if anything it magnifies the chances of it being imperialist tenfold.
You really haven't addressed my post.
Yeah. A large reason why the people who live in first world have the comfy lives they have is because of the labor which is used from 3rd world country.
Discredit your success? What success am I discrediting?
You are derailing the conversation.
Whether or not products that America buys from other countries could be produced locally doesn't change that sudden cut offs in trade would vastly damage the American economy, as the economy of America is not entirely self sufficient.
It doesn't matter whether or not it is "the fault of the US". If you deny that the labour of the third world are used to develop the first world than you are denying accepted fact.
Labour in the third world is purchased by first world capitalists.
Surplus value is expropriated and leaves the country that it was produced in.
The products and the profit leave the third world and enter the first world, leaving little but the small wage of the labourer in the third world country.
This is basic capitalist economics and something that shouldn't be hard to grasp.
Your point?
This doesn't prove your argument.
Most products consumed in the US are not made in the US? So you think that means we CAN'T EVER make those things here? What economic rule says that?
So giving jobs to other countries is exploiting them? Then why would their people work if they are being exploited? Wouldn't they just stay at home and sit under a tree and wait for the US aid to arrive? What US troops are forcing them to work for us?
What I said doesn't contradict itself because I don't think employing people is exploitation, you do.
Manufacturing left America for a reason? Yeah, other countries cost of living is lower so their workers are willing to work for much less. That's good for them and good for us. Why didn't they develop their economy and beat us and use us as their work force?
The US is also the number one nation in charity in the entire world. We give more to the rest of the world than any other country. What has the third world given the rest of the world? Did they cure small pox? Did they invent anything? Discover anything? Did they provide any troops to help save freedom for any countries? Must be nice to be able to just sit under a shade tree all day while the women fetch water, care for the babies, plant and harvest the crops, and cook the meals.
16.3 trillion dollars flowed out of third world nations? The article doesn't specify where the money went. It doesn't say it went to the US or Europe. Even so, corruption in third world countries is nothing new. That's part of the reason why they're still third world countries.
Since when is space a profitable economics? It's not all about profit. We didn't go to the moon for profit. We don't operate the Mercy Ship in third world countries for profit. We didn't lose 440,000 troops in WW2 for profit. We didn't cure small pox for profit. If you were an American you would know this.
Being at the top doesn't make a country not imperialist? Name one country in all of history that had or has the military advantage that the US has over the rest of the world and has NOT used it to expand it's borders?
A large reason people in the US live comfy lives is third world workers? Yeah, the shirts and shoes and toasters are nice, they are what make the US a world leader, our clothes and small kitchen appliances.
What success are you discrediting? #1 economy that keeps much of the world employed. Oh, I forgot, you think jobs are exploitation.
The economy of the US is not entirely self sufficient because it doesn't have to be. Why should it be? China can make our clothes and steel, we'll give them American movies. That's not exploitation, that's called trade and it's good for both countries. If they don't want to make our clothes they can stop tomorrow, we'll find someone else to do it.
I am absolutely denying that the third world is developing the first world. They did not discover anything, Europeans and American's discovered everything and we wrote it all down into books that any third world country can buy and teach to their children. How long would it take the country of Ethiopia to come up with the Table of the Elements? It would take forever because in thousands of years they haven't discovered anything for humanity. Not a single thing. They didn't even find the Australopithecus fossils in their own country!
Corruption in Africa does not prove my point? It kind of does. There have been people in Africa longer than anywhere else in the world. What discoveries have they given humanity? Civilization? Farming? Law? Government? Iron or steel? Cement? Any of the elements? Any theory in physics? What about any other third world country?
Super Universe
Defender of God
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
Out of 198 countries listed on the Wikipedia Annual Minimum Wages of Countries, there are 12 countries that have higher minimum wages than the US and they are all either European countries, Canada, Israel, and Australia.
What was it you said "think before you spout nonsense".
Augustus
…
The intellectual traditions of capitalism were based around religion. Adam Smith's invisible hand was that of God, Divine Providence.
Smith was a moral philosopher who believed that the excesses of capitalism needed to be checked through Christian morality.
Modern capitalism is a quasi mystical philosophy whereby the 'market' magically works on its own, and profit maximization is (arguably) a legal obligation for most managers.
Much of modern capitalism is based around corporate rent seeking, speculation over investment, policies that hit short-term metrics desired by the financial establishment (that are based on flawed ideological theories), and an amoral approach to ethics.
Globalisation has created a transnational elite disconnected from any obligations to anyone but themselves. Long-term this is unsustainable as we see in many countries rejecting globalist orthodoxy at the ballot box.
Duke_Leto
Active Member
Not the person you replied to, but employment in virtually every instance is exploitation. The basis of capitalism is paying workers less than the value of what they produce; i.e. paying them less than their worth. Workers have no other choice but to accept these conditions, which is the main reason why some consider capitalism exploitative.
Because developing an economy requires wealth to begin with, which requires having resources available to trade. The third world's resources tend to be exploited by foreign entities.
Your ignorance of history and society in general is so astounding I don't know where to begin.
The space race occurred because the U.S.S.R. and U.S. were competing over political and economic dominance of the world. Developing infrastructure in space would give one side a significant advantage. The space race was one of the most economically motivated events in history, even though it didn't involve private companies.
Are you implying that the U.S. hasn't done this, or trying to justify it?
No, they're just an indicator of it. The West exploits the third world so it can have cheap consumer goods; shoes and clothing are examples.
For most of history up until the Industrial Revolution, China was more technologically developed than most other places in the world, including Europe. It's not really because it had a superior form of government or society or culture, but that they had better resources and opportunities to develop it. The development of capitalism also spurred technological advancement in developed areas because that's where it concentrated wealth -- in the same way employers extract surplus value from workers, developed nations extract the value from less developed countries.
Why, incidentally, do you think that European powers tried to colonize and control economically underdeveloped areas like India, most of Africa, and the Americas at all? Do you really think they didn't provide any form of value to them?
siti
Well-Known Member
So you'd be happy to manage without electrical, industrial and medical equipment worth about $500billion, not to mention imported vehicles, computers, phones etc., pharmaceuticals, $160 billion worth of petroleum products including oil, gems, precious metals, plastics and organic chemicals - all of which totals almost $7000 worth of consumer spending per year for every single man, woman and child in the US?
Super Universe
Defender of God
Employment is not exploitation. Paying workers less thant the value of what they produce is NOT the basis of capitalism, it's basic to all economic systems. Socialism can't continue if they paid their workers more than what they produce, no economic system could.
Workers do not have to work, they choose to work, other than the labor camps in North Korea.
Why don't Chinese companies stop making clothes for the US and make clothes only for Chinese? Because we pay them more for them than they would get from Chinese companies. China has 1.2 billion people. The US has 340 million. Certainly there are more clothing customers in China than the US, right?
The US is dumping money into China. You think it's exploitation for a worker in China to make $1-2 an hour but in China that's like making $5 an hour in the US.
Developing an economy requires wealth to begin with? If that was true, then who was the first person to have wealth? Where did the first American's get their wealth? Did they steal gold from Europe before they left? Nope. The US dollar has no value whatsoever. It's a piece of paper but that piece of paper is accepted all over the world because of the US economy. We've given the world a more stable economy.
My ignorance of history and society in general is astounding? Five years of college, science major with a minor in English/Economics, been to 14 different countries, most of them 5-6 times. How about you?
Name some things that the third world has done for the world? I'll wait...
The space race occured because the US and USSR wanted political and economic dominance over the other? All space activities provide no economic return. NASA costs the US $18 billion a year. NASA is essentially the same as welfare but for skilled workers.
You want to hear another third world story? There is a large tribe in Africa, the tribal chief sent his son to Canada to go to college. Years later the tribal chief died and the tribe wanted the son to return to be chief, so he did. The son then told the men about all the things in the west, skyscrapers, aircraft carriers, 747's, spaceships, the men said "no, men cannot do these things" and went back to their shade tree.
The tribe was hit with malaria. The chief told his men "there is medicine, send a runner to the city to get some". So a runner went out and came back and said that it would be delivered by airplane but the tribe had to prepare a cleared runway. The chief told the men to clear a runway. They did not do it and sat under a shade tree. The chief got angry at the men and threated to go back to Canada, so, the men went and told the women to clear the runway and the women did it. The medicine arrived and the malaria was stopped, and the men sat under the shade tree.
You want to hear another third world story? Two English men went to New Guinea to live with a tribe. One of the men brought along a blow up pool ball that looks like the earth. He wanted to teach the tribe about how the earth rotates around the sun and how day/night and the seasons work. The tribe listened as he talked then, when there was a break they reached for the ball and tossed it on the ground and started kicking it all around. They didn't learn a thing. It took humanity thousands of years and the invention of the telescope before we figured out that the earth rotates around the sun and these tribal people missed out on the chance to advance their understanding of it because they were too simple minded.
You want to hear another story? There was this African country that had a famine in one section of the country. The US flew in genetically modified rice that has more nutrition than regular rice. A month later a European reporter went in to report on the famine, the people had not been given any of the food. The reporter went into the town and talked with the government. The government showed the reporter where the food was, still in a warehouse. The reporter asked "Why haven't you given it to the people who are starving?" The government leader replied "We don't have the scientists to tell us if this rice is safe to eat". The reporter then discovered that the government leaders all came from a different tribe than the starving people. They were letting them starve on purpose.
I've probably been more places than you have and definatlely grown frustrated with the things people in the third world countries do. You can't help people who won't help themselves. If you give them money, they won't spend it on infrastructure or education, they will waste it on some small luxury. If you tell them what they need to do, build a dam here, plant this crop here, dig an irrigation trench from there to here, they look at you as if you must be crazy thinking they're going to do all that work. The only way to help them is to go in and do all the work yourself, and I mean, ALL THE WORK including supervising it forever, or, at least until the government siezes it from you and kicks you out of the country.
When has the US used our military might to expand our borders? Texas and California in the 1800's? We didn't keep France or Germany in WW2. We didn't keep Japan. We didn't keep Bermuda, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan.
The west exploits third world workers? Fine, stop working for us then. Keep all your clothes in your own country. Let's see what happens to your economy then. I dare you.
Developed nations don't extract value from third world countries, we give them value. All the shirts that China is making is employing workers who would not have jobs. If it's all bad then why would Chinese do it. Why is China's economy almost equal to the US now?
Why did Europeans try to colonize and control under developed areas? The Spanish and English wanted gold in the America's, spices from India, the English really like their tea, hmm lets see, there was silk, cotton, uhh, trying to remember my college, dyes too I think, ever hear of something called the East India Company?
Then there were slaves to be taken from Africa. The first Europeans who came to the America's weren't after economically under developed resources. The settlers were as poor as the natives at first and greatly outnumbered by them but they eventually traded for something the natives called tobacco.
Super Universe
Defender of God
I posted a reference.
What have you posted? You're upset because you can't get your way with the rest of the world.
I would hand you a tissue but I'm waiting for the Kleenex box to arrive from China.
Super Universe
Defender of God
If other countries want a trade war we can be up and running in no time at all. We already have production for some of those things, just not to the degree that China provides. And, once the rest of the world stops exporting things to the US their economies would go in the dumps like a lead balloon.
Bring it on, lets see what you can do.
If it came to a serious trade war we could pass laws that force our companies to produce items at cost for a limited time and then we would start up our old steel plants and make everything here. China would never get another Hollywood movie again. Once all that manufacturing returns to the US and the US people went through all of that do you think China or any other country would produce ANYTHING for us ever again?
Japan, just before WW2 started, thought that they could cut off all of our rubber supply. You know what we did, we invented synthetic rubber.
You think you're important. You're only important because we make you important. Don't think for one second that you can't be replaced by others or even American workers.
Super Universe
Defender of God
I posted a reference that supports my claim that the US is among the highest in minimum wage.
Instead of posting references you're getting angry. I didn't make any of this up. I'm not the world ruler, I'm not in charge of everything. I would definitely do some things different but the US is not the reason other countries are not successful nor are we supposed to fix things for them. Our government gives something like $60 billion in monetary aid a year to countries and that's not counting charity.
They have to fix their own problems.