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Problem of Perfection

gnostic

The Lost One
Why can't everyone think that actually everything is perfect?????May be we just can't see it, we are part of perfection, is just hard to understand, but uglyness and bad things exist for some reason, to be perfect does not mean that everything has to be good, but that there is balance.

Stop looking for perfection, it is before your eyes.
This doesn't make sense. Do you want me to look for perfection or not?

I simply don't believe perfection exist, so I am "not looking" for perfection.

Who said that "perfect" and "good" mean the same thing? Not me. Good, bad and evil are also subjective. Perfect is subjective to one's perception, and therefore it cannot possibly exist. "Perfect" is adjective for the extreme, like the word "ultimate", and I don't believe in ultimate.

How many time have you heard of one athelete being the "best"? And yet, someone later will outdo the previous champion, and become the new "best".

However, I do believe in "balance".
 

gnostic

The Lost One
a4b4 said:
I like that idea, that perfection is a state of constant improvement.
katzpur said:
Well, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, and I don't agree with everything they've taught you, but I think you make a number of good points. I totally agree with the concept of continuing to grow and improve throughout eternity. (My religion calls it the Doctrine of Eternal Progression.)
I'd have to disagree on this one.

I think you are confusing perfection with improvement. Improvement is mastering or adapting to changes, whereas the perfect is state where there can be no further improvement to be made.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
gnostic said:
I'd have to disagree on this one.

I think you are confusing perfection with improvement. Improvement is mastering or adapting to changes, whereas the perfect is state where there can be no further improvement to be made.
I'm not sure why you think I'm confusing the two. I actually think I understand the words pretty much in the way you've explained them. Very simply, I see improvement as changing for the better, increasing in knowledge or ability, and perfection as being the state which exists when no further improvement is possible, all knowledge having been gained or all attributes being at their optimum state.

I see God as perfect in terms of His divine attributes. In other words, He is perfect in terms of His love, His mercy, His understanding, His knowledge and His power. But I don't see His existence as being static either. I see Him as moving forward just as we are.
 
Katzpur said:
But just to play the Devil's advocate... What does that say about the nature of God? If we can continue to progress forever, will we eventually catch up with God? Or will He always be one step (or a billion steps) ahead of us? If He, too, will continue to progress, does that mean that He is not now perfect?

Yeah, my professors and I discussed this at my defense of my thesis. This was a tricky one. What I came up with is God is Perfect. However, he will conceptually and always infinitely transcend our definitions, expectations, ect. Thus, it's not that God is steadily improving...it's simply that we will never be able to successfully articulate his perfection. This characteristic of God's perfection is very paradoxical. He's perfect...but his perfection always transcends whatever definitions or limits we put on him by our calling him perfect. This is why we need to always use open-ended language or language that always implies there being room for more in God.
Likewise, we can take this example of God's unique "super-perfection" and apply it to ourselves, by never limiting how far we can go and never being content to stop at any one place. God is limitless, and within him so are we. Does this make sense?
My thesis clarifies this a little more and flushes these ideas out a little more. I'm still working on the link to it.

Dee
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
sonflour_2001 said:
Yeah, my professors and I discussed this at my defense of my thesis. This was a tricky one. What I came up with is God is Perfect. However, he will conceptually and always infinitely transcend our definitions, expectations, ect. Thus, it's not that God is steadily improving...it's simply that we will never be able to successfully articulate his perfection. This characteristic of God's perfection is very paradoxical. He's perfect...but his perfection always transcends whatever definitions or limits we put on him by our calling him perfect. This is why we need to always use open-ended language or language that always implies there being room for more in God.
Likewise, we can take this example of God's unique "super-perfection" and apply it to ourselves, by never limiting how far we can go and never being content to stop at any one place. God is limitless, and within him so are we. Does this make sense?
Yes, it absolutely makes sense and I agree 100%.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Joseph Smith Inspired version

Matthew 5

1 And Jesus, seeing the multitudes, went up into a mountain; and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him;

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are they who shall believe on me; and again, more blessed are they who shall believe on your words, when ye shall testify that ye have seen me and that I am.

4 Yea, blessed are they who shall believe on your words, and come down into the depth of humility, and be baptized in my name; for they shall be visited with fire and the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.

5 Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit, who come unto me; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

6 And again, blessed are they that mourn; for they shall be comforted.

7 And blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth.

8 And blessed are all they that do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.

9 And blessed are the merciful; for they shall obtain mercy.

10 And blessed are all the pure in heart; for they shall see God.

11 And blessed are all the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God.

12 Blessed are all they that are persecuted for my name's sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

13 And blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

14 For ye shall have great joy, and be exceeding glad; for great shall be your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

15 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor, wherewith shall the earth be salted? the salt shall thenceforth be good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the light of the world; a city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.

17 Behold, do men light a candle and put it under a bushel? Nay, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light to all that are in the house.

18 Therefore, let your light so shine before this world, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

20 For verily I say unto you, heaven and earth must pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall in now wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled.

21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great, and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

22 For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

23 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time that, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill, shall be in danger of the judgment of God.

24 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of his judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, or Rabcha, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

25 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, or if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that they brother hath aught against thee,

26 Leave thou thy gift before the altar, and go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

27 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time thine adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

28 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

29 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery.

30 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

31 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart, for it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

32 Wherefore, if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

33 Or if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

34 And now this I speak, a parable concerning your sins; wherefore, cast them from you, that ye may not be hewn down and cast into the fire.

35 It hath been written that, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

36 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced, committeth adultery.

37 Again, it hath been written by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths.

38 But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; neither by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King; neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

39 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

40 Ye have heard that it hath been said. An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

41 But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

42 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have it; and it he sue thee again, let him have thy cloak also.

43 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him a mile; and whosoever shall compel thee to go with him twain, thou shalt go with him twain.

44 Give to him that asketh of thee; and from him that would borrow of thee, turn not thou away.

45 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.

46 But I say unto you, love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you; and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you;

47 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

48 For if ye love only them which love you, what reward have you? Do not even the publicans the same?

49 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans the same?

50 Ye are therefore commanded to be perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect.
 

A4B4

Member
sonflour_2001 said:
Yeah, my professors and I discussed this at my defense of my thesis. This was a tricky one. What I came up with is God is Perfect. However, he will conceptually and always infinitely transcend our definitions, expectations, ect. Thus, it's not that God is steadily improving...it's simply that we will never be able to successfully articulate his perfection. This characteristic of God's perfection is very paradoxical. He's perfect...but his perfection always transcends whatever definitions or limits we put on him by our calling him perfect. This is why we need to always use open-ended language or language that always implies there being room for more in God.
Likewise, we can take this example of God's unique "super-perfection" and apply it to ourselves, by never limiting how far we can go and never being content to stop at any one place. God is limitless, and within him so are we. Does this make sense?
My thesis clarifies this a little more and flushes these ideas out a little more. I'm still working on the link to it.

Dee
That's basically what I was gonna say, except using math concepts (I am an engineering student, after all). Mathematically speaking, it's like we are some number increasing without bound (towards infinity), and God is the sum of all (positive) existent numbers, both finite and infinite. He is the definition of all positive numbers, so by definition He will always be absolutely infinite, and we will always only be a fraction of Him. If we were to graph the progression of our knowledge to infinity, He would be equivalent to the piece of paper we're graphing it on--infinitely long (longer than our line), and absolutely greater than our knowledge.

I'm sure among the things opened to us after the resurrection will be the world of mathematics. Ah, the excitement!
 
gnostic said:
This doesn't make sense. Do you want me to look for perfection or not?

I simply don't believe perfection exist, so I am "not looking" for perfection.

Who said that "perfect" and "good" mean the same thing? Not me. Good, bad and evil are also subjective. Perfect is subjective to one's perception, and therefore it cannot possibly exist. "Perfect" is adjective for the extreme, like the word "ultimate", and I don't believe in ultimate.

How many time have you heard of one athelete being the "best"? And yet, someone later will outdo the previous champion, and become the new "best".

However, I do believe in "balance".

exactly, you can see it two ways. either that everything is perfect, or that there is not such thing as perfection. I, however, like to see it as that everything is perfect, that everything that exist is good because it creates balance. I do not like to see everything as "incomplete", i think that everything that exist has a purpose, and i accept it. So yeah, i totally agree with you that you shouldn't seek perfection, we just see it differently...and i totally like to argue with someone with such good ideas..
 

Wandering Light

New Member
[perfection is an unacheivable goal which lebds itself perfectlyquote=sonflour_2001]Howdy peeps. Well, perfection is what I did my undergraduate thesis on. More specifically, I dealt with Christ's controversial commandment, "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." I wanted to know how everyone else deals with this commandment, as a Christian or how you would approach a similar commandment in any other religions.

Usually, this specific commandment is either met with scoffing, or it's simply ignored. Others, under the Lutheran influence, have claimed that Christ gave this commandment merely to underscore that we could never acheive it. However, this makes no sense to me. I've taken a stab at the concept of perfection in my thesis and I'll post my theory on it, but first I wanted to see what a couple of you have to say about.

Is it impossible? If so why did Christ tell us to do it in the first place? :confused:

Dee[/quote]
 

cardw

Member
Wandering Light said:
Is it impossible? If so why did Christ tell us to do it in the first place? :confused:

There is some discussion that the word is mature, not perfect. This would be a call to maturity. If Jesus is calling us to perfection then we would need to have a pretty clear idea what perfection is. As far as I know there is no definition of perfection that is not based on some arbitrary ideal. To achieve perfection one usually has to reduce perfection to something we can measure. If goodness is something we try to measure I don't know if there is an absolute definition of perfect goodness.

When I have observed people trying to be good, goodness becomes reduced to a parody with a stepford feel to the whole act.

There are some who have said that goodness is only one step away from evil.
 
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