Problem of Perfection

[dan]

I think the whole reason people have a problem with it is because of the notions that have been wedded with original Chrisitan thought that God is this unknowable, uncomprehensible being. That He is so far from comprehension creates a pretty good size rift between us and we could never fulfill the purpose of life according to John (John 17:3). Original Christians thought of God as more of a close father figure. I like the metaphors present throughout the BIble that God is our literal father and we are His children. What father doesn't want his children to grow up to be just like him? Thus the commandment. No one says the attainment of this goal must be in this life, either. We can be made perfect in Christ, but we will also become like Him in the life to come if we follow His lead.

 

[Quiddity]

No one says the attainment of this goal must be in this life, either.

Here is something we can agree upon.

 

[michel]

Howdy peeps. Well, perfection is what I did my undergraduate thesis on. More specifically, I dealt with Christ's controversial commandment, "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." I wanted to know how everyone else deals with this commandment, as a Christian or how you would approach a similar commandment in any other religions.

Usually, this specific commandment is either met with scoffing, or it's simply ignored. Others, under the Lutheran influence, have claimed that Christ gave this commandment merely to underscore that we could never acheive it. However, this makes no sense to me. I've taken a stab at the concept of perfection in my thesis and I'll post my theory on it, but first I wanted to see what a couple of you have to say about.

Is it impossible? If so why did Christ tell us to do it in the first place?

Dee

I'll let you into a little secret (well, not so much a secret as a confession). Having suffered from various compulsions and obsessions, I ought to be the one nearest perfection (in all walks of life).

Of course, that is impossible. Which is a contributary factor as to why I am, and have been depressed most of my life.

I haven't the ability to accept anything that I create without being disatisfied with it, to the point that this obsession pervades every side of my life.

Take this computer, for example; I dread to think how many times I have had to re-instal it. Why ? because I am always trying out tweaks, I will never be satisfied with less than 'perfect'; which, of course, some level of me knows is absurd and unnatainable.

In my career in the Bank, I had to write in hand written great big bound ledgers (to do with legalities, mortgages and the like) - most of it concerning property; it was important to get it right.

The trouble was, that not only did I make myself get it right, but it had to look right. I had black, red and green fountain pens. All underlines had to be done with a ruler. If I was half way through a page and I made a mistake, that was it. Tear the sheet up and start again.

I served as a teller once in a small village branch (where there had only ever been one teller. I made damned sure I could cope on my own.

Whenever I went on holiday, two tellers took my place (and I promise this is true); when I did 'crack up', two became permanent, with a third for the busy beginning and end of weeks.

But all that is slightly off topic (although I am the same in Religion). I walk through woods saying prayers. If I realise that I have lost concentration for a second, I have to start the prayer again (obviously this applies to the Lord's prayer and others that I use on a daily basis).

As far as

I wanted to know how everyone else deals with this commandment, as a Christian or how you would approach a similar commandment in any other religions.

I guess the short answer is:- Badly.

The longer answer is that we must do our best to aim high; the higher the aim, the higher you will hit the board (with luck). being a 'weird' Christian who believes in Reincarnation, I believe that that is where this commandment comes into play. It is only after many many lives (however many it takes) that one achieves 'God-hood' or as near to that as is possible given our handicap of being born as human beings.

I have often thought, with great sadness that prfection has to be the aim, and the falling very short of it is a burden I sometimes feel is one too great to bear.

 

[nutshell]

Every reply here so far (including the thesis overview), has stressed the work and state of the individual. No has mentioned the perfection of the Body. (Since it's Christ's comment, I'm assuming Christ's Body -- the Church). No one has mentioned that perfection might be a state that humanity reaches together, and that only together can perfection be reached.

The Body -- the Church -- is the exemplar of that perfection. "We, who are many, are one Body, for we all share one Bread, one Cup." I think we should be striving together to realize the truth that we are truly one people.

I don't disagree with you at all. My posts may have stressed the individual, but LDS belief teaches that we cannot receive perfection by ourselves - as you may know, we do work for the dead and missionary work - we do these things because we believe we can all be linked together as one eternal family in perfection and that this perfection is not obtained without our kin, which, by extension, includes the Church as well.

 

[sojourner]

I don't disagree with you at all. My posts may have stressed the individual, but LDS belief teaches that we cannot receive perfection by ourselves - as you may know, we do work for the dead and missionary work - we do these things because we believe we can all be linked together as one eternal family in perfection and that this perfection is not obtained without our kin, which, by extension, includes the Church as well.

I'm glad you said that. I, paersonally, would extend that thought to say that we are "linked together as one eternal family in perfection." It's only our limited human perception and our human bent to sin that keeps us in petty division. Jesus prayed that we all be one. Paul said, "we, though many, are one Body, because we all share one Bread, one Cup." The early Church found its greatest perfection and expression in the celebration of the Eucharistic meal together.

I think where you and I would differ is that (I think) you would say that we have not reached perfection. I say that we are already made perfect, and that that perfection is shown forth in the one Body of Christ on earth.

Whatever the viewpoint, though, you're absolutely right! We're in this together.

Thanks.

 

[sonflour_2001]

I thought perfection came in simple forms, like a flower, the flower is perfect for what it is, it doesn't need to do more, is god's creation. The flower doen't seek Perfection. As us, humans, should not seek perfection, but be what we are, humans, and love what we are. Pefection will not come for the one who is constantly seeking it.

I always attempt to find balance in everything. So I can't really say I disagree with this...um...let's see if I can reconcile this to what I believe. As for seeking perfection, I would say that yes the flower is perfect b/c it freely lives out it's natural purpose. As humans we should be doing the same thing. Living out our natural purpose which is the continous development of that seed of righteousness and divinity within all of us.

However, the problem is that our lives aren't as simply as the flower's life is. We are plagued with all the worries of mankind b/c of that wonderful gift of free will. Consequently, we get wrapped up in all sorts of decisions and these things distract us from living out our true nature...just like the flower. In any case, b/c we strayed from that original road (the same one the flower is still on), we have to find it once more.

But, I do also agree with your opinion on the search for perfection. I don't think one should have PERFECTION in mind, as it's always the ego always greedily wants to have some supreme goal in mind...in hopes of illustrating your superiority over someone else. Instead, I think that we should focus every present moment of our time on (if I may borrow from the Bhagavad Gita) "right action without consequence!" And once we enter into that mindset and govern ourselves accordingly, we will be actively in the process of perfection.

What father doesn't want his children to grow up to be just like him? Thus the commandment.

That's such a wonderful and simple image.

No one says the attainment of this goal must be in this life, either. We can be made perfect in Christ, but we will also become like Him in the life to come if we follow His lead.

I agree with this somewhat...but it can kind of be interpreted as an okay for spiritual procrastination. It's always in our nature to want to put stuff off towards the future. Start now...by never stopping acting in ways that make you better than what you initially thought was your best.

Every reply here so far (including the thesis overview), has stressed the work and state of the individual. No has mentioned the perfection of the Body. (Since it's Christ's comment, I'm assuming Christ's Body -- the Church). No one has mentioned that perfection might be a state that humanity reaches together, and that only together can perfection be reached.

Ah hah! I knew I was missing something! Eureka! N E way, yeah I totally agree with you. There was a great quote somewhere that went something like, "Find your own salvation and millions will follow." I think it was in response to people's concerns for others on their spiritual path. It has to start with the individual as a group is made up of many individuals. Once a person starts to a conscious effort on their part to do better, there's no way other's can be left out because of our unbreakable connection to our fellow human beings. But every individual must decide to undergo this challenge for him or herself. That's not to discourage anyone from helping others and seeking the unity that is so necessary for the perfection of mankind...Ahem...the continous perfecting of mankind. In fact the more I learn about myself, the deeper my connection gets with others. (Sounds a little weird eh?)

Dee

 

[Katzpur]

Howdy peeps. Well, perfection is what I did my undergraduate thesis on. More specifically, I dealt with Christ's controversial commandment, "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." I wanted to know how everyone else deals with this commandment, as a Christian or how you would approach a similar commandment in any other religions.

Hi, sonflour.

First off, I like your name. It's very creative. Now you need to find an avatar that is equally unique.

Usually, this specific commandment is either met with scoffing, or it's simply ignored. Others, under the Lutheran influence, have claimed that Christ gave this commandment merely to underscore that we could never acheive it. However, this makes no sense to me. I've taken a stab at the concept of perfection in my thesis and I'll post my theory on it, but first I wanted to see what a couple of you have to say about.

Is it impossible? If so why did Christ tell us to do it in the first place?

These are great questions. I glad you started this thread. First of all, I don't believe that Christ would have ever given us a commandment that was impossible for us to keep. That just doesn't fit with my perception of Him. I think what we need to understand is that there is a difference between being perfect individually and being "perfect in Christ." Here's how I've heard the subject addressed:

Perfection is not relative; it's absolute. It is therefore impossible for anyone who has committed even a single sin (that would be all of us) to achieve perfection. If you are in school and are striving for a 4.0 GPA, you only have to get one A- for your GPA to be permanently less than perfect. There is another kind of perfection, though, and that is "perfection-in-Christ." This kind of perfection is attainable and I believe it's the kind of perfection Christ was speaking of when He commanded us to be perfect.

When we are baptized (in my Church, this generally happens at eight years of age), we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. We renounce all competing loyalties and promise to make Him first in our lives. We enter into a union (like a marriage) with Him. To this union, we bring our desire to obey and be faithful to Him. He brings perfection. In this union, what is ours becomes His and what is His becomes ours. He takes upon himself our sins, absolving us of them. He gives to us a clean slate. We form a partnership with Him wherein His assets and our liabilities are combined.

This can be compared to a bank account. If I already had a bank account, but were overdrawn and therefore had a negative balance, but were to enter into a partnership with someone who had a lot of money to contribute to a joint account with me, my balance would suddenly be in the black (provided the other person's assets exceeded my liabilities). With Christ being my partner in the relationship, I find myself in an absolutely marvelous position. Because He is perfect, no matter how imperfect I am, His perfection will always more than cover my imperfection. Together, Christ and I make up an entirely new entity. He is the senior partner and I know I can rely on Him never to bail out on me. I can bail out (i.e. cancel the contract), but as long as I remain committed to Him, I have nothing to worry about.

When you consider the mathematics of it, it makes such a lot of sense. If Christ is infinite and I am finite, together what do we add up to? Well, what's the sum of an infinite, positive quantity (Jesus' perfection) and a limited, negative quantity (my sins, my failings, my mistakes)? The answer is "Infinity." Infinity plus any amount, positive or negative, results in infinity. This is how I can become "perfect" -- not by or through my own abilities, but through His. I can be "perfect in Christ."

 

[joeboonda]

I would agree to the above post. We are perfected by and in Christ. Another word for perfection is completed. Like Tom Cruise said, 'you complete me', lol. Christ completes us and we are perfect in Him. When we accept Christ, we are a new creature and our spirit, which was dead, is made alive. We still live in a fleshly body and still have our sinful nature, our 'old man' to deal with, to crucify daily, etc. But as long as we live in this imperfect body, we will fall, but God will pick us up everytime. That is why Paul said that we will all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, when we receive our new glorified bodies, (at the Rapture or last trump,or whatever time your doctrines teach) that this corruption (sinful body) will put on incorruption, that this immortal shall put on immortality. The Bible also says that He' has perfected forever those who are being sanctified' (made holy). On a last note, we will mess up, fail, fall, etc., but we should not let Satan discourage us and lie to us and tell us we are not saved or any such nonsense. We are forgiven, not perfect, we are works in progress, already justified but now growing in grace, and being shaped into the image of our Saviour.

 

[bigvindaloo]

Aristotle was a perfectionist. So was Aquinas. Both thought the law was the way to guide men in the right moral direction. Only a few are capable of thinking morally for themselves. Otherwise we are creatures governed by passion according to them. Buddhists think of perfection as achieved when past karma is exhausted. Christians seem to think perfection is an ideal personified by God. I don't think perfection exists. It is a state too static to fit into a dynamic reality. Wasn't Descartes searching for perfection when he thought "I think therefore I am?".

The idea of perfection that seems most coherent to me is the physics principle that information cannot be destroyed.

 

[joeboonda]

Others, under the Lutheran influence, have claimed that Christ gave this commandment merely to underscore that we could never acheive it.

I have heard this in other denominations studies as well. It just one angle, which is that Jesus was pointing out to folks that God demands absolute perfection as far as being able to be in His presence as He is perfectly Holy. When Jesus said that if you even look at a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery in your heart. In other words He was pointing out that it was not just enough to keep the Law, but it was actually the essence of the Law showing that nobody is Just in His sight. The only way to have this perfection is to have it imputed unto us through Christ having paid for our sins and given us His righteousness in place of our own. Then God looks at us and does not remember our sins anymore, we are clothed in robes of righteousness, in glory, children of the most-high God, whom He will never leave nor forsake nor cast out, having redeemed (bought) us forevermore. It was a way to show us that we need Christ, that we on our own all 'fall short of the glory of God', we 'all have sinned'. Only by accepting the free gift of grace may we be reconciled to the Lord.

 

[A4B4]

8.) This is where St. Gregory of Nyssa comes into my research. His concept of perfection for humanity includes "epektasis" which includes perfection as being, the constant and continuous effort, so that perfection no longer merely entails the platonic concept of stability, but also utilizes continuous ever towards that which is better.

9.) Such a concept of perfection connects us to God where Jesus commanded us to be perfect just like God, because God's perfection is such that he conceptually continuous to transcend any definition, or understanding of him. Likewise, within the very process of constant improvement or transcendence above past mistakesm we constantly obtain perfection.

10.) The only catch is that you cannot stop. Egos want us to stop and take inventory of all we have accomplished, so that we can feed our pride and lazily point our past accomplishments as evidence that we don't need to do anything else. Thus we form the attitude, "this is enough". However, much like God is always better than what we could possibly articulate about him, we can always do better than what we initally claim is our best. So we mustn't stop. For instance, as soon as you stop doing all the things you do that make you humble and say, "I'm humble", you no longer are. Thus, once you get off the continuous path of perfection to arrogantly recall your success, you no longer exude it.

11.) So the conclusion is to simply never give up. You don't know how weirded out I was when I was writing this thesis and this simple advice developed from my research. I mean people tell you this all the time, but you never really take it seriously, right? However, I guess there's something to it after all. So never give up, going from "glory to glory" and the road itself will be your reward of perfection..."even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

I like that idea, that perfection is a state of constant improvement. If we are to be resurrected with eternal life, what ever shall we do with all that time? Educate ourselves, I say.

What I've gathered from studying with some Jehovah's Witnesses is this: after the Great Tribulation (or rapture, or whatever you call it), during the 1,000 years of peace, the whole of humanity will undergo a large-scale education. It will take 1,000 years of us working under close supervision of God and Jesus and all the annointed ones, to enter the Paradise Earth for eternity--to attain that initial bump from finite to infinite; imperfect to perfect. With that mindset, it is for our own benefit, and moreover for the benefit of humanity that we learn as much as we can spiritually in this life, so as to be better equipped for helping others during the 1,000 years wherein we'll be resurrected.

Once we've achieved this, we'll be free to explore an infinite universe over eternity! Thus, there will always be room for improvement. Though this ideology does not necessitate the idea that perfection is a state of constant improvement, it, at the very least, accepts it.

But I don't see why we can't stop. Athletes are constantly improving their athletic ability, yet they take breaks along the way. Before a big race, they taper down their workouts. So a professional athlete may workout twice a day, five times a week. There' still plenty of time within each week that s/he's not working out.

If, over eternity, we would spend 1 year improving for every 100 years resting, we would still spend an eternity improving (and an eternity resting). That's the beauty of eternity!

 

[gnostic]

Personally, I don't believe in perfection in anyone or in anything. Like truth and faith, perfection is subjective.

I don't think even God is perfect. If he were perfect, then he wouldn't have done an imperfect job in creating this world. It makes me wonder if he did not do this on purpose, in the hope that people would rely on him to worship him.

Nothing on earth is perfect, but that's not to say there are no beauties in this world with all their imperfectness. There is some in flaw that makes it seem beautiful, but beauty, like perfection is subjective to one’s perspective.

Does that make any sense at all? Sorry, it's morning, and I didn’t get much sleep.

 

[nutshell]

Personally, I don't believe in perfection in anyone or in anything. Like truth and faith, perfection is subjective.

I don't think even God is perfect. If he were perfect, then he wouldn't have done an imperfect job in creating this world. It makes me wonder if he did not do this on purpose, in the hope that people would rely on him to worship him.

Nothing on earth is perfect, but that's not to say there are no beauties in this world with all their imperfectness. There is some in flaw that makes it seem beautiful, but beauty, like perfection is subjective to one’s perspective.

Does that make any sense at all? Sorry, it's morning, and I didn’t get much sleep.

How was his job imperfect? Perhaps if I understood this I could better respond to your post.

 

[Quiddity]

Personally, I don't believe in perfection in anyone or in anything. Like truth and faith, perfection is subjective.

How is truth subjective? Faith I can see, but truth? Surely you submit to emperical scientific truths?

I don't think even God is perfect. If he were perfect, then he wouldn't have done an imperfect job in creating this world. It makes me wonder if he did not do this on purpose, in the hope that people would rely on him to worship him.

Perhaps you can conceive of such of God, but this is certainly not how the vast majority of Abrahamaic religions have understood it.

Nothing on earth is perfect, but that's not to say there are no beauties in this world with all their imperfectness. There is some in flaw that makes it seem beautiful, but beauty, like perfection is subjective to one’s perspective.

If both beauty and perfection are subjective; then how can your own subjective opinion be correct?

 

[joeboonda]

When God finished the creation He said it was 'very good'. Sin had not entered thus death had not entered, nor the Fall. Sometimes we need to trust God, that He does have a plan, and that all things will work for good to those who trust Him.

 

[sonflour_2001]

As far as God's plan, his perfection, and the creation of an imperfect world, there are a few explanations that some theologians have put forth. One of the most interesting ones deals with God's perfection. If God is perfect, then it makes sense that anything he creates will fall short of that perfection. It'll be good, but it won't necessarily be perfect. As far as what I think, I believe that when God created us initially, he knew we did not have what it took to fully appreciate love, freedom and all of wonderful virtues of life. So Adam and Eve were great. But, God knew/knows/will know that humanity at this stage could still have developed into even higher beings. So all of what we experience now steadily prepares us in such a way that we can come back to Him in every way possible. Had Adam and Eve been left alone, perhaps they would have never been able to transcend the original imperfection inherent in humanity...b/c of being created by a being who encompasses all. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that Adam and Eve had it bad. They were walking with God...I mean come on. But I think that wasn't enough for God, we wanted us to "partake in his divine unity" as Peter once said. Hence, we have much to overcome.

Dee

 

[gnostic]

How is truth subjective? Faith I can see, but truth? Surely you submit to emperical scientific truths?

I see emperical scientific truths as "facts". Truth on its own doesn't necessarily equate to fact. As I said in the past, truth and fact are two different words. People often confuses the two words.

When you ask a person to tell them the truth in court, they can only tell it from his perspective, and this can't be verify as fact until it is proven by other independent eye-witness(es).

Only when truth can be verified, can the two words mean the same thing.

If both beauty and perfection are subjective; then how can your own subjective opinion be correct?

Who said that my opinion wasn't subjective? Who said that my taste in beauty is objective?

I don't.

Some people can see beauty in the wooded forest, while others love the great expanse of open grassy fields. Some prefer the seas. And there are some who see the beauty of desert.

Which landscape is right about which is more beautiful? The forest? The field? The sea? Or the desert? Which is true? Is any of the landscapes perfect or beautiful?

There is no right or wrong, but people's taste in scenery are different, and therefore subjective.

Tell me, Victor. Can you honestly admire beauty, even though it is not perfect? Do you love a woman or child who is perfect?

 

[gnostic]

If God is perfect, then it makes sense that anything he creates will fall short of that perfection.

If God is perfect, as you believe, then it is not possible for him to create anything that it is imperfect. That doesn't make sense.

The 3rd possibility is that God didn't create this world; someone else did, who is imperfect. In Gnosticism, they say that God, whom is known as the One or the Great Invisible Spirit (the first being), had no involvement with creating the material/physical world; this so-called creator is a demiurge, an inferior being. From this perspective, it would make sense that imperfect being had created an inferior world.

If you believe in your god as being perfect, then he is one hellof imperfect creator.

(Note that 2nd possibility is that there are no gods, from the scientific or atheist's perspective, but that's a different story).

 

[Carlos Andres Restrepo]

If God is perfect, as you believe, then it is not possible for him to create anything that it is imperfect. That doesn't make sense.

The 3rd possibility is that God didn't create this world; someone else did, who is imperfect. In Gnosticism, they say that God, whom is known as the One or the Great Invisible Spirit (the first being), had no involvement with creating the material/physical world; this so-called creator is a demiurge, an inferior being. From this perspective, it would make sense that imperfect being had created an inferior world.

If you believe in your god as being perfect, then he is one hellof imperfect creator.

(Note that 2nd possibility is that there are no gods, from the scientific or atheist's perspective, but that's a different story).

Why can't everyone think that actually everything is perfect?????May be we just can't see it, we are part of perfection, is just hard to understand, but uglyness and bad things exist for some reason, to be perfect does not mean that everything has to be good, but that there is balance. This site exist because someone has an opposite thing to say, therefore this site is perfect. If we would all think the same, this site wouldn't have the necessity to exist.....I don't know if you understand what i'm saying. Stop looking for perfection, it is before your eyes.

 

[Katzpur]

I like that idea, that perfection is a state of constant improvement. If we are to be resurrected with eternal life, what ever shall we do with all that time? Educate ourselves, I say.

What I've gathered from studying with some Jehovah's Witnesses is this: after the Great Tribulation (or rapture, or whatever you call it), during the 1,000 years of peace, the whole of humanity will undergo a large-scale education. It will take 1,000 years of us working under close supervision of God and Jesus and all the annointed ones, to enter the Paradise Earth for eternity--to attain that initial bump from finite to infinite; imperfect to perfect. With that mindset, it is for our own benefit, and moreover for the benefit of humanity that we learn as much as we can spiritually in this life, so as to be better equipped for helping others during the 1,000 years wherein we'll be resurrected.

Once we've achieved this, we'll be free to explore an infinite universe over eternity! Thus, there will always be room for improvement. Though this ideology does not necessitate the idea that perfection is a state of constant improvement, it, at the very least, accepts it.

But I don't see why we can't stop. Athletes are constantly improving their athletic ability, yet they take breaks along the way. Before a big race, they taper down their workouts. So a professional athlete may workout twice a day, five times a week. There' still plenty of time within each week that s/he's not working out.

If, over eternity, we would spend 1 year improving for every 100 years resting, we would still spend an eternity improving (and an eternity resting). That's the beauty of eternity!

Well, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, and I don't agree with everything they've taught you, but I think you make a number of good points. I totally agree with the concept of continuing to grow and improve throughout eternity. (My religion calls it the Doctrine of Eternal Progression.)

But just to play the Devil's advocate... What does that say about the nature of God? If we can continue to progress forever, will we eventually catch up with God? Or will He always be one step (or a billion steps) ahead of us? If He, too, will continue to progress, does that mean that He is not now perfect?