Krishnano
I apologize not to have posted before now. The next four months are busy for me and I’ll have to go on a low-electron, forum-"lite" diet and post less often.
I appreciate the wonderful depth of detail you are offering Krishnano, it is fascinating doctrine. I read just a bit regarding Vaishnavism on wikipedia and noted that some of Vaishnavism felt early Christianity was as a form of Vaishnavism. Whether that is correct or not, I can’t help but notice similar elements between what you’ve related and some ancient Christianities also.
We, at least under ISKCON's Gaudiya perspectives, believe that Christianity is a form of Vaishnavism. Whether it is a legitimate form to come to God now or whether it is corrupted is up to debate (we do argue of the oneness of God and not the divinisation of Jesus, and emphasis on vegetarianism and that God has a spiritual body). In any case, the Ebionites and the Essenes have more in common with Vaishnavas than any other form that I know of Christianity. The creation (and in some doctrines, the dissolution) of the soul is something vehemently against Vedic Scriptures, and makes us at odd ends with most religions in the world.
You are correct to say that earier forms of Christianity were reflective of Vaishnava-influences; there is rumour of Jesus having gone to India, although I do believe that some Greeks and Romans themselves were Vaishnavas as well, and might have carried on such thought beliefs into Christianity.
Jesus is accepted by Gaudiya Vaishnavas as shaktyavesha avatara of Krishna; that is, he is an acarya and empowered representative of God who taught God consciousness according to time, place and circumstance (with some material differences). Thus, Abba (the Father), Jehovah and Krishna/Vishnu are the one, same, eternal Supreme Lord.
1) Regarding the spirits relationship to God for example:
You related: The early Sophia Christi, relates a similar description :
There are other specific concepts that are familiar to christianities and other religions of other eras.
Regarding the pre-mortal existence of the spirits of men referred to in your quote:
this sentiment is a substantial thread woven into so many sacred texts:
Yes, you are right. Although quoted from Doctrine and Covenants, the only difference is that the Latter Day Saints pose that the spirit soul were created, or at least born from their Spiritual Parents, the Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father. Vaishnava doctrine still adheres strictly to the eternality of the spirit soul, which is part and parcel of the body of God (think of planets revolving around the sun; all originally came from the same substance of energy when it was first created [not like the soul or God are created, lol], but the immense power of a sun cannot compare to the planets that surround it). The Christian, Jewish and Egyptian texts you have proposed still can not be reconciled with Vaishnavism from the mention of the soul 'being created,' but the similarities are still intriguing nonetheless.
Although I do say that the similarities found in your Zohar and Egyptian texts are indubitably fascinating.
I have to wonder if such constant redundant repetition was important to the ancients because it emphasized the realization that knowing who we really are and where we came from is the only thing that can put the present and future into its proper perspective.
You may be right! The fact that such a theme is recurrent in early forms of these religions and still preserved in Vaishnavism shows that the eternality of the soul is something universal and has survived thought-evolution (or doctrinal diversion). By knowing where we came from, it gives us a clearer vision of what are we to do in this life, and how to go back Home.
2) I also thought you offered another interesting quote that:
This theme of the consequences of improper pre-mortal pride as it applies to an individual reminds me of early Judao-Christian traditions of the fall of Lucifer. The oldest religious document in the world is the Shabako Stone (the memphite theology) and it deals with this very theme (It deals with the christian "war in heaven" but it is presented in egyptian idiom). Do Vaishnavas have their own traditions as to where the character "Lucifer" originated?
When I became a Vaishnava and left my Christian roots, I also sensed the same thing. With pride of course, universally this vice has always been followed by a fall of some sort, whether metaphorically or literally. So if one were to have some sort of pride-rebellion, obviously a culpable fall would also ensue.
Unfortunately (or rather fortunately) we have no personification of Evil, since everything is due to our own actions and the karmic reactions received (except that a devotee of the Supreme Lord does not care for karma, and thus his karmic debts are reduced when engaged in bhakti yoga). There is a personification of the illusion of the material world (which is in reality one of the manifestations of God's energy) as a transient, but seemingly substantial reality, called Maya, and is divided into two forms: Mahamaya and Yogamaya. It is Maya's job to test the living entities of whether they can go beyond attachment to the material realm or not. While
Mahamaya is the illusive principle for all materialists, atheists and staunch impersonalists,
Yogamaya reminds devotees that this plane is illusory and that the only Reality is Krishna, or God and the spirit soul.
But Mayadevi as a personification of the falseness of material energy, still works under the direction of Krishna. She is Krishna's servant as well, and merely doing her job!
In Vaishnava theology, the Supreme Lord Krishna's transcendental body is pure energy, and is divided into three: antaranga shakti, tatashtha shakti, and bahiranga shakti. Shakti literally means something along the lines of 'the manifestation of the energy of God'.
Antaranga shakti is the
spiritual or
internal potency/energy of the Lord, where the Lord eternally resides and abides, as well as where our true identities lie.
Bahiranga shakti is the
material or
external potency/energy of the Lord, which includes all the universes created, including ours, and is subject to a continual cycle of creation, maintenance and dissolution. We belong to
tatashtha shakti, or the
marginal potency/energy of God that always goes back and forth from the two former potencies, according to the desires of the spirit soul (consciousness is the symptom of the soul).
So basically, the material world is really a manifestation of the energy of the Lord; the illusion is that it is the only form, and eternal, when it is factually not. But chanting and glorifying God and His Names (harinam sankirtan), such as chanting Hare Krishna, can change that false and transient identification with the material world.
In the symbolism of a spirit leaving a heavenly home where it’s been nurtured and comes to earth to gain knowledge and testing, the Hymn tells of a youth, nurtured well by his parents and who is given the task of having his glorious robes removed and being sent to a far and mysterious country where he is to obtain a pearl under difficult circumstances. While away, despite warnings, he slumbers and forgets who he is and his glorious past and even, for a time, his purpose of coming to this strange land.
At some point, he is given help and as he reads a letter from his home, he remembers what it is that he is to accomplish here. He remembers his glorious past, his purpose and accomplishes it. Upon his return, his prior glorious robes are placed upon him, and family and friends now bestow accolades upon him, of which he is only then deserving.
That sounds like a pastime of Krishna. There was a saint named Narada Muni, and he was a great devotee and follower of the Supreme Lord and he wanted to understand why the spirit soul would forget where he originally belonged (in the Kingdom of God, or Goloka Vrindavana). You must read it; it is too wonderful for me to be able to put it into my own words.
Sri Sri Radha Krishna Temple - Utah Krishnas
"It [material nature] is all real but everything outside my Kingdom is impermanent, your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for a devotee in Goloka-Vrindavan, who is eternally liberated, until they choose not to be as you have just done, to be captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) and fall to a temporary body of forgetfulness birth, disease, old age short memory and death to experience the impermanent nature that exists only within My material universe outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrindavan/Vaikuntha."
Again, thanks for your detailed description of what you believe Krishnano.
No problem!
Hare Krishna!
Please chant:
Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
(or any bona fide name of God)
and be happy!
Krishnano
)
