Praying for answers = cheating?

[Windwalker]

A professor is overseeing the final for his philosophy of religion class. He notices that one of his students has their pen down, they have their hands over their face, and they are not paying attention to the test in any recognizable way. He goes to the student and asks if the student is ok. The student says, "yes sir, I was simply praying to God to help me answer the question". The professor takes the test and rips in half. In horror, the student exclaims, " why did you do that?!" The professor responds that, "asking for help on tests is cheating, and cheating is an automatic zero."

Thoughts? Reactions? Discussion?

Edit: This is a paraphrased example from "A Brief History of the Paradox" by Roy Sorensen

That's ridiculous. Asking God to help you know the answer isn't magic. All any prayer does is help someone find what is already there. If he didn't know the answer in the first place, somewhere in his mind buried behind all his anxieties and distractions and whatnot, no amount of prayer couldn't put something in that wasn't already there. If it could, then you could pray for lottery ticket numbers and then buy the school that professor worked for.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Studying the material helps you get answers on an exam... is that cheating?

Unless the exam is open-book, it's cheating to study the course material during the exam, yes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's ridiculous. Asking God to help you know the answer isn't magic. All any prayer does is help someone find what is already there. If he didn't know the answer in the first place, somewhere in his mind buried behind all his anxieties and distractions and whatnot, no amount of prayer couldn't put something in that wasn't already there. If it could, then you could pray for lottery ticket numbers and then buy the school that professor worked for.

I've seen plenty of stories where a lottery winner said something like "God made us win! We prayed for this!"

It sounds like you're assuming a very ineffectual God that is not in line with the beliefs of many people.

 

[Windwalker]

I've seen plenty of stories where a lottery winner said something like "God made us win! We prayed for this!"

Can you provide a case where God isn't seen as simply "guiding" the roll of the dice in what your example illustrates, but instead someone saying "God gave me the specific numbers that were going to win in advance, I wrote them down, the told the clerk to give me a single ticket with those exact numbers". Now, if you can show me that, then that would pertain to what my comment was. Otherwise, this does not relate.

It sounds like you're assuming a very ineffectual God that is not in line with the beliefs of many people.

You failed to see my point. I'm talking about specific knowledge, such as questions that appear on a test in an area you have zero exposure to because you didn't study. What I am saying is people are aware of far, far, far more than their conscious minds can pull up to recall for a test, or for anything else really for that matter. What prayer does in these cases, really in most cases, is to affect the mind in such a way that it "relaxes" through the vehicle of belief, trust, or faith. And when that happens, things "magically" surface to the conscious awareness and you "get" the answer. My point is it was there the whole time, even if they didn't consciously recall it.

So "God answering prayer", is really basically God "helping" them, through their own faith, so to speak. I believe Jesus said to the woman who received healing by coming to him, "Your faith has made you whole". Notice the word "Your" there? Our minds live in contraction, and our beliefs and views close us in and off from our own subconscious awareness. So these "miracles", are really nothing more that tapping into that "magic" that is there all the time, but we assume isn't there because we aren't in touch with ourselves. Truly, "Your faith has made you whole" is quite accurate.

Does this help clarify?

 

[1137]

Studying the material helps you get answers on an exam... is that cheating?

No. Nor is it the same situation.

 

[Willamena]

The student specifically states he was asking God for answers. Not looking internally.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." That is not looking externally.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the... - Reinhold Niebuhr at BrainyQuote

 

[idav]

That's ridiculous. Asking God to help you know the answer isn't magic. All any prayer does is help someone find what is already there. If he didn't know the answer in the first place, somewhere in his mind buried behind all his anxieties and distractions and whatnot, no amount of prayer couldn't put something in that wasn't already there. If it could, then you could pray for lottery ticket numbers and then buy the school that professor worked for.

Perhaps but said student was praying for a miracle, even if one never happened before the believing student is asking for an exception, asking for answers that are not known to him at the time because of lack of study. So sure you can pray for any answers you want (lottery, Al Qaedas location or whatever) so not ever getting the answers doesn't change the intent of getting the answer from thin air from an omniscient being.

 

[Windwalker]

Perhaps but said student was praying for a miracle, even if one never happened before the believing student is asking for an exception, asking for answers that are not known to him at the time because of lack of study. So sure you can pray for any answers you want (lottery, Al Qaedas location or whatever) so not ever getting the answers doesn't change the intent of getting the answer from thin air from an omniscient being.

OK, but still the professor's response, if in fact a true account, is pretty ridiculous. What he should have done is just wait to see if the student could 'conjure' up the answer this way. If he could, then he in fact DID know the answer. Back to the subconscious thing. He'd either in fact read it, but couldn't recall it at the moment, or he'd heard it in a lecture, and likewise couldn't recall it.

People have all sorts of techniques to bring stuff up like this, during tests, during any daily tasks, on the job, etc. Praying like that is simply a technique to 'trick' the mind into remembering or thinking clearly. In my opinion, he should have let him try. If it worked for him, then encourage him to pray more so he is more successful! But the fact the professor considered this "outside help", doesn't speak too well to the professor's understanding of these things. He must see God in rather literal and peculiar ways too. Did he really believe there existed any possibility God would actually pass him a cribnote in class or something? :biglaugh:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK, but still the professor's response, if in fact a true account, is pretty ridiculous. What he should have done is just wait to see if the student could 'conjure' up the answer this way. If he could, then he in fact DID know the answer. Back to the subconscious thing. He'd either in fact read it, but couldn't recall it at the moment, or he'd heard it in a lecture, and likewise couldn't recall it.

People have all sorts of techniques to bring stuff up like this, during tests, during any daily tasks, on the job, etc. Praying like that is simply a technique to 'trick' the mind into remembering or thinking clearly. In my opinion, he should have let him try. If it worked for him, then encourage him to pray more so he is more successful! But the fact the professor considered this "outside help", doesn't speak too well to the professor's understanding of these things. He must see God in rather literal and peculiar ways too. Did he really believe there existed any possibility God would actually pass him a cribnote in class or something? :biglaugh:

I think you're operating from your own understanding of prayer. There are others. In some cases, it really is a straightforward request for help from an outside source. Regardless of effectiveness, why wouldn't we consider this at least attempted cheating?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you provide a case where God isn't seen as simply "guiding" the roll of the dice in what your example illustrates, but instead someone saying "God gave me the specific numbers that were going to win in advance, I wrote them down, the told the clerk to give me a single ticket with those exact numbers". Now, if you can show me that, then that would pertain to what my comment was. Otherwise, this does not relate.

A few months ago, we had a user right here who gave a story very much like you describe. IIRC, they prayed for money for a neighbour who was in a tough financial situation. The neighbour then had a dream where God told her to buy a lottery ticket and dictated a set of numbers to her.

I don't personally believe that God actually intervened here, but the user seemed sincere. I'll try to track the thread down.

The point is that yes, there really are people who would think it possible that God would dictate answers to them that they didn't already know.

You failed to see my point. I'm talking about specific knowledge, such as questions that appear on a test in an area you have zero exposure to because you didn't study. What I am saying is people are aware of far, far, far more than their conscious minds can pull up to recall for a test, or for anything else really for that matter. What prayer does in these cases, really in most cases, is to affect the mind in such a way that it "relaxes" through the vehicle of belief, trust, or faith. And when that happens, things "magically" surface to the conscious awareness and you "get" the answer. My point is it was there the whole time, even if they didn't consciously recall it.

So "God answering prayer", is really basically God "helping" them, through their own faith, so to speak. I believe Jesus said to the woman who received healing by coming to him, "Your faith has made you whole". Notice the word "Your" there? Our minds live in contraction, and our beliefs and views close us in and off from our own subconscious awareness. So these "miracles", are really nothing more that tapping into that "magic" that is there all the time, but we assume isn't there because we aren't in touch with ourselves. Truly, "Your faith has made you whole" is quite accurate.

Does this help clarify?

Not really. I get tbat this is your understanding of prayer. What I don't get is your implication that this is the only understanding of prayer. Many people believe it to have (God willing, of course) real physical effects.

 

[Sees]

I think you're operating from your own understanding of prayer. There are others. In some cases, it really is a straightforward request for help from an outside source. Regardless of effectiveness, why wouldn't we consider this at least attempted cheating?

You would have to make a case for a specific theological position and prove they were using an outside source. Even if a person thinks they are in contact with the dead, aliens, Gods, etc. you can't punish them as if they truly are without proof that it is more than a meditative exercise. Thought-crimes don't count.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You would have to make a case for a specific theological position and prove they were using an outside source. Even if a person thinks they are in contact with the dead, aliens, Gods, etc. you can't punish them as if they truly are without proof that it is more than a meditative exercise. Thought-crimes don't count.

Attempted crimes most certainly count. And we don't need to prove they were using an outside source. If someone smuggled a two-way radio into an exam with the intent of communicating with a friend who has the textbooks and a computer, this would still be an offense even if the batteries in the radio were completely dead so that actual communication was impossible.

 

[Windwalker]

I think you're operating from your own understanding of prayer. There are others. In some cases, it really is a straightforward request for help from an outside source. Regardless of effectiveness, why wouldn't we consider this at least attempted cheating?

See my last post above yours to Idav. It answers the last part of it, if taken literally. Does God pass crib notes? Would the Almighty participate in passing answers?

Let's put it this way, even if we were to take the superstitious understanding of prayer as some sort of magic incantation for supernatural answers, what about someone wearing a cross to class? Carrying a lucky rabbit's foot? Rubbing their lucky stone? Praying before class? How are any of those different? It's still all an invocation for supernatural help.

Should the professor do a strip-search so he can ensure there are no "charms" being brought into class? Make them empty their pockets? Or, better still, monitor their eye movements to ensure they aren't silently sending up prayers to the god of their choice? It's all entirely silly. Cheating is asking another human, someone in the room (or a human at the end of a cell phone text message), not invoking prayer! Students pray all the time for good grades.

 

[Windwalker]

You would have to make a case for a specific theological position and prove they were using an outside source. Even if a person thinks they are in contact with the dead, aliens, Gods, etc. you can't punish them as if they truly are without proof that it is more than a meditative exercise. Thought-crimes don't count.

Exactly.

 

[Sees]

Attempted crimes most certainly count. And we don't need to prove they were using an outside source. If someone smuggled a two-way radio into an exam with the intent of communicating with a friend who has the textbooks and a computer, this would still be an offense even if the batteries in the radio were completely dead so that actual communication was impossible.

Fair enough as far as intent, but still need to prove the theological position that the entity/being who is prayed to for help isn't part of them, within them, etc. It would be hard to do since majority of theism has at least a dash of immanence.

 

[Windwalker]

Attempted crimes most certainly count. And we don't need to prove they were using an outside source. If someone smuggled a two-way radio into an exam with the intent of communicating with a friend who has the textbooks and a computer, this would still be an offense even if the batteries in the radio were completely dead so that actual communication was impossible.

Note, there was an actual human at the end of it? How is praying to God anywhere remotely the same as asking your friend Steve for the answer via a walkie-talkie?

 

[idav]

OK, but still the professor's response, if in fact a true account, is pretty ridiculous. What he should have done is just wait to see if the student could 'conjure' up the answer this way. If he could, then he in fact DID know the answer. Back to the subconscious thing. He'd either in fact read it, but couldn't recall it at the moment, or he'd heard it in a lecture, and likewise couldn't recall it.

People have all sorts of techniques to bring stuff up like this, during tests, during any daily tasks, on the job, etc. Praying like that is simply a technique to 'trick' the mind into remembering or thinking clearly. In my opinion, he should have let him try. If it worked for him, then encourage him to pray more so he is more successful! But the fact the professor considered this "outside help", doesn't speak too well to the professor's understanding of these things. He must see God in rather literal and peculiar ways too. Did he really believe there existed any possibility God would actually pass him a cribnote in class or something? :biglaugh:

Hey I am mostly with you here. I myself, being pantheist and all LOL, have an uncanny knack of acing tests that I really shouldn't cause I use various techniques and such. What I WOULD NOT DO is tell a professor I am conjuring up these answers cause it spells intent to cheat. If I tell some philosophy professor I am trying to use some sort of universal consciousness to ace all these tests why shouldn't he take me serious on my intent? Of course, even being a theist, I know how silly it sounds but at the same time that would undermine my own belief would it not? Shouldn't I be taking myself seriously at the very least, thinking I conjure up this universal consciousness without every having to read any books cause osmosis is the next best thing. So the students intent should be taken seriously, it could be a threat that he has a spy cam or something in his ear when he is trying to pray making a scene as if something is going on that shouldn't, cause his head is bowed and everything. Best way to pray would just be in the dudes head and not act all crazy about it, just get the answers in his head and move on. Pray silently for heavens sakes, lol.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Note, there was an actual human at the end of it? How is praying to God anywhere remotely the same as asking your friend Steve for the answer via a walkie-talkie?

With dead batteries, the question of whether there's an actual human at the end is pretty much irrelevant except for the attempted cheater's beliefs about who's at the other end.

 

[Windwalker]

If I tell some philosophy professor I am trying to use some sort of universal consciousness to ace all these tests why shouldn't he take me serious on my intent?

In my job interview for my current position as a Sr. Engineer at a major internal company, I actually told them in one of my many interviews when asked how I deal effectively with stress in the workplace, I answered truthfully, that I mediate for an hour every morning. I said it helps to be clear and focused and to triage without being distracted by anxious thoughts. That one team lead who interviewed me asked me a ton of questions afterwards about it for himself. Yes, I got the job. So you see, a tool for the mind like this actually improves your technical abilities, test taking, and general performance. It makes you "smarter", actually. So my "intent" is to do well. My means are not cheating, if not a little less than conventional to most.

The professor should have applauded his intent to do well. He could have just doodled on the paper, rather than using a mental technique to come up with the answer.

Shouldn't I be taking myself seriously at the very least, thinking I conjure up this universal consciousness without every having to read any books cause osmosis is the next best thing.

Knowledge is knowledge. We know far more than we realize. I meditate all the time, and finding answers becomes more an more effortless for me without all those screaming trains, planes, and automobiles running around in the freeways of my mind. It's actually quite amazing what we "pick up" simply by being exposed to our culture, never actually reading anything on a particular subject. It's all about getting the data out of there that conditioning the mind does for us. It's not 'spooky' or supernatural.

As one interesting example, there is a technique someone can do where they "pray" or meditate, or tell themselves to find an answer right before the go to bed. With that intention alone, very often the answer comes to them in their dreams. I had that happen to me for a complex technical problem with a server at work. I hadn't meditated on the problem before bed, but I suddenly awoke "knowing" the answer. And sure enough, that was exactly the problem which was some very obscure thing. Again, the mind is far, far, far more powerful and aware than our clouded little "normal" brains see.

Even if pray is done superstitiously, it is still a form of meditation. It is still focusing the mind with intention. That is why prayer is effective, even if you sincerely believe God is doing it for you. In a sense, God is. It's your turning to God with the mind in focused intention, through belief, through faith, through intention, that the answers come - in their time.

Best way to pray would just be in the dudes head and not act all crazy about it, just get the answers in his head and move on. Pray silently for heavens sakes, lol.

Well, yes! I don't think performing a ritual in the middle of a test class would be appropriate! No prostrations, no sitting in a lotus position, no speaking in tongues, no raising one's hands or voice in worship or praise will bode well for the student during the test.

Personally, I think the professor may have just used that as an excuse for his inappropriate antics. It was obviously overt enough to draw attention to himself!

 

[Windwalker]

With dead batteries, the question of whether there's an actual human at the end is pretty much irrelevant except for the attempted cheater's beliefs about who's at the other end.

God doesn't use walkie-talkies. Only humans do. The conclusion it was for human-to-human use is inherent in the technology. However, he could have be carrying it in his bag to take to Radio Shack after school to get it repaired, but that's beside the point. Cheating by asking for answers would have to be asking a human, not God.

As I said at the end of my post before this one, I personally now think the professor just made up an excuse for this because the student was disrupting the class with overt prayers or something. I don't believe the professor really believed it was literally cheating. Again, that would be ridiculous for any educated person to literally believe that. He was probably just annoyed and perturbed at Billy because the guy never studied, or something. It's sounds like history there.