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Practical Wisdom

The Bhagavad Gita is one of my favorite spiritual texts, so I was interested but also a bit wary when I heard about this new commentary that takes a very different approach to it. I found the book to be excellent ... and it's free! Achieve Cosmic Consciousness and Live in Enlightenment cuts through the abstractions, obfuscations, and complex rhetoric that clutter many commentaries. It is profound yet easily understood, written for practical people who want to improve their lives and also grow in spirituality. It makes Krishna’s wisdom relevant and inspires us all to stay on the path to enlightenment. For those grappling with relationship and work issues, it’s particularly helpful. An excellent addition to the canon of commentaries on the Gita. The entire text is free under “Get Free eBook Sample” at Achieve Cosmic Consciousness and Live in Enlightenment: A New Commentary on the Bhagavad Gita for Active People Engaged In Life|eBook
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Another hit and run shill.
He makes a very good point, however.

Too often religions dress their idealism up in mythical, metaphorical, symbolic robes so thick that the average person has no sense at all as to how these ideals might be applied in real life. It ends up being a lot of empty artifice and people feel dejected. After all, what good is a God that has no practical function?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bhagavad Gita is one of my favorite spiritual texts, so I was interested but also a bit wary when I heard about this new commentary that takes a very different approach to it. I found the book to be excellent ... and it's free! Achieve Cosmic Consciousness and Live in Enlightenment cuts through the abstractions, obfuscations, and complex rhetoric that clutter many commentaries. It is profound yet easily understood, written for practical people who want to improve their lives and also grow in spirituality. It makes Krishna’s wisdom relevant and inspires us all to stay on the path to enlightenment. For those grappling with relationship and work issues, it’s particularly helpful. An excellent addition to the canon of commentaries on the Gita. The entire text is free under “Get Free eBook Sample” at Achieve Cosmic Consciousness and Live in Enlightenment: A New Commentary on the Bhagavad Gita for Active People Engaged In Life|eBook

Thanks.

But before I invest any time with that, I'd like a better understanding of what YOU mean by wisdom, spiritual growth, and enlightenment. I think I've discovered what wisdom is, but you might not agree with my definition or what meets it. My definition of wisdom is that it is a special kind of knowledge distinct from basic intelligence, where basic intelligence is defined as knowledge related to problem solving and achieving short-term goals, like how to attract a mate or how to pass the bar exam and become an attorney. Wisdom, by contrast, is knowing what to pursue to achieve long-term happiness. That mate and career might turn out not to be the path to happiness, and therefore, their pursuit unwise.

Is that what YOU mean by wisdom as well?

Also, is spiritual growth different from enlightenment for you, or perhaps a subset of it? How does one decide that either has occurred according to your understanding of what those terms mean? I ask because I find so much written in these areas to be without definite meaning. What people call wisdom might be anything that others have told them is wisdom, and they can say no more about what makes it that. And how often do we read from those who seem to be stumbling about while making no personal progress or gaining no useful new insights telling us that they are on a spiritual journey in search of spiritual truth. What does the Bhagavad Gita have to offer the modern humanist that is not already contained in humanism?

I ask because I feel like I have a worldview that accomplishes those goals, and would need a reason to look elsewhere, like a guy who already knows of more nearby restaurants that he likes than he can use who is being recommended to visit a new one because the food and service are good. Why, he asks, should I keep looking for new restaurants? There might be a good reason, but I'll need to know specifically what this critic means by good food and good service.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Practical knowledge in religion is what got American Evangelicalism to the ugly state it's in today, where centuries of practical readings and understandings of the Bible have been emphasized over sound theology and study. Typos, translation errors, and especially cultural nuances aren't considered because it's impractical to address those concerns and it gets in the way of just accepting things.
I don't know a whole lot about Hindu, but I'm pretty sure it's the same where trying to make it practical is going to lead to faulty conclusions and erroneous interpretations.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Practical knowledge in religion is what got American Evangelicalism to the ugly state it's in today, where centuries of practical readings and understandings of the Bible have been emphasized over sound theology and study. Typos, translation errors, and especially cultural nuances aren't considered because it's impractical to address those concerns and it gets in the way of just accepting things.
I don't know a whole lot about Hindu, but I'm pretty sure it's the same where trying to make it practical is going to lead to faulty conclusions and erroneous interpretations.
I was going to mention something similar. And, in response to @PureX PureX's post, some religions may benefit from being so ambiguous, especially one such as Hinduism since Hindu beliefs vary so widely. I don't think Bhagavad Gita is meant to have only one interpretation, only one outline for how to live life. Maybe the readers are meant to impose their own interpretations to their needs accordingly.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Gita has been translated and commented on so many times it's not funny. Other than learning Sanskrit, and it's many finer points, I know of no way of determining which is the better translation or commentary. From several years of hearing this discussion, the one by Eknath Easwaran usually gets recommended the most.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I was going to mention something similar. And, in response to @PureX PureX's post, some religions may benefit from being so ambiguous, especially one such as Hinduism since Hindu beliefs vary so widely. I don't think Bhagavad Gita is meant to have only one interpretation, only one outline for how to live life. Maybe the readers are meant to impose their own interpretations to their needs accordingly.
I doubt individual interpretations were the goal.
One of the more crucial areas if concern is cultural nuances. Hindu is among the oldest religions still in practice, so this does mean the culture that gave birth to it is long dead and gone. As are most who added to it and expanded into an very elaborate and rich pantheon. It loses meaning and takes on a new form when these are lost.
It's like some of the old Looney Tunes cartoons, which definitely had elements of racism that were known and understood to the culture that birthed it. But even though we still call ourselves things like Westerners and Americans, that culture is dead and today those things are so imperceptible and lost on a modern audience that these elements of racism go unnoticed and unknown.
Amd that's not really that big of a stretch or gap in culture, and it's mainstream pop-culture media. I would have to say individual interpretations today of a religious text written thousands of years ago in a culture that doesn't exist anymore is bound to rife with fringe interpretations, things that don't make sense in proper context, even just plain wrong when given a more impractical but proper examination of it where we allow others (through face to face lessons, books, research and such) to guide us in our understandings. Just think of how wrong we are with Shakespeare when we aren't aware many words today and then are the same words but don't mean anything close to the same thing. The KJV is also problematic with this. The Baghavad Gita, how can it not require greater care to understand?
 
Thanks.

But before I invest any time with that, I'd like a better understanding of what YOU mean by wisdom, spiritual growth, and enlightenment. I think I've discovered what wisdom is, but you might not agree with my definition or what meets it. My definition of wisdom is that it is a special kind of knowledge distinct from basic intelligence, where basic intelligence is defined as knowledge related to problem solving and achieving short-term goals, like how to attract a mate or how to pass the bar exam and become an attorney. Wisdom, by contrast, is knowing what to pursue to achieve long-term happiness. That mate and career might turn out not to be the path to happiness, and therefore, their pursuit unwise.

Is that what YOU mean by wisdom as well?

Also, is spiritual growth different from enlightenment for you, or perhaps a subset of it? How does one decide that either has occurred according to your understanding of what those terms mean? I ask because I find so much written in these areas to be without definite meaning. What people call wisdom might be anything that others have told them is wisdom, and they can say no more about what makes it that. And how often do we read from those who seem to be stumbling about while making no personal progress or gaining no useful new insights telling us that they are on a spiritual journey in search of spiritual truth. What does the Bhagavad Gita have to offer the modern humanist that is not already contained in humanism?

I ask because I feel like I have a worldview that accomplishes those goals, and would need a reason to look elsewhere, like a guy who already knows of more nearby restaurants that he likes than he can use who is being recommended to visit a new one because the food and service are good. Why, he asks, should I keep looking for new restaurants? There might be a good reason, but I'll need to know specifically what this critic means by good food and good service.
Thanks.

But before I invest any time with that, I'd like a better understanding of what YOU mean by wisdom, spiritual growth, and enlightenment. I think I've discovered what wisdom is, but you might not agree with my definition or what meets it. My definition of wisdom is that it is a special kind of knowledge distinct from basic intelligence, where basic intelligence is defined as knowledge related to problem solving and achieving short-term goals, like how to attract a mate or how to pass the bar exam and become an attorney. Wisdom, by contrast, is knowing what to pursue to achieve long-term happiness. That mate and career might turn out not to be the path to happiness, and therefore, their pursuit unwise.

Is that what YOU mean by wisdom as well?

Also, is spiritual growth different from enlightenment for you, or perhaps a subset of it? How does one decide that either has occurred according to your understanding of what those terms mean? I ask because I find so much written in these areas to be without definite meaning. What people call wisdom might be anything that others have told them is wisdom, and they can say no more about what makes it that. And how often do we read from those who seem to be stumbling about while making no personal progress or gaining no useful new insights telling us that they are on a spiritual journey in search of spiritual truth. What does the Bhagavad Gita have to offer the modern humanist that is not already contained in humanism?

I ask because I feel like I have a worldview that accomplishes those goals, and would need a reason to look elsewhere, like a guy who already knows of more nearby restaurants that he likes than he can use who is being recommended to visit a new one because the food and service are good. Why, he asks, should I keep looking for new restaurants? There might be a good reason, but I'll need to know specifically what this critic means by good food and good service.
 
I have to admit I can’t follow all this. It’s too complexly philosophical for me. You probably make some good points, but they’re beyond me. Maybe that’s why I’m a bhakta-vedandtist – it’s simple.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have to admit I can’t follow all this. It’s too complexly philosophical for me. You probably make some good points, but they’re beyond me. Maybe that’s why I’m a bhakta-vedandtist – it’s simple.

Sorry, and no problem.

@PureX wrote, "Too often religions dress their idealism up in mythical, metaphorical, symbolic robes so thick that the average person has no sense at all as to how these ideals might be applied in real life. It ends up being a lot of empty artifice and people feel dejected. After all, what good is a God that has no practical function?" I agree. I wanted whatever you could provide to help me rule out that it would be something like that.

With all due respect, you are recommending a philosophical treatise that you describe in terms that you weren't able to define: wisdom, spiritual growth, and enlightenment. I'd be happy to explore any intriguing perspective, but too much of this type of material has turned out to be a disappointment in the past. My best guess is that your source contains nothing of value that isn't already a part of my humanist worldview simply because this has virtually always been the case in the past with others, so I need more than just a title and a link to want to look further. I was hoping you could identify a couple of specific examples of what it is in that resource that makes you recommend it. You called it profound - why?

I'm going to digress a bit into what I call rigorous thinking and soft thinking. Rigorous thought - or critical thought - is focused and concentrated, and based in evidence and rules of inference. Soft thinking is more diffuse. I liken them to the times I studied guitar and music in mathematical terms (scales, intervals, chords, tempos and times, keys, and the like), and the times I was playing. One focuses thought like a laser to study and understand, then changes to a different mode of thought to create.

Soft thinking is an important part of conscious experience - the most important. It includes feelings and intuitions, fears and desires, a sense of security and belonging, and the like. Lose that, and you lose meaning and purpose, as well as the ability to experience enthusiasm in a connection to one's surroundings (spiritual experience) - the anhedonism of depression that sometimes leads to suicide. I want to emphasize the importance I place in this type of thinking EXCEPT when trying to determine what is true about the world. If one is not rigorous when drawing his mental map of what is real and how the world works, he risks making costly mistakes.

When studying philosophy, I am in rigorous thought mode, just as when studying the foundations of harmony and melody. This is no time for soft thinking, which requires changing focus from sharp to fuzzy, and from concentration to a more receptive and passive state of thinking. That great for art, but not intellectual pursuits. So, I was looking for something from you to suggest that you were like-minded, and that I might find interesting what you find interesting. Or, is your approach more like what I am accustomed to - somebody read something that made them feel like it was important, but can't say how or why. You used the word enlightenment. What light do you see, and what is it illuminating?

So, I ask you to provide something that would justify reading the book you recommend, something to pique interest besides your enthusiasm, something that shows me that our thinking is enough alike that I would find value in your recommendation, and perhaps a few representative examples. A good start would be what you consider wisdom to be. I've now given you my definition of what that is as well as an understanding of what I mean by a spiritual experience, and enlightenment. You might enjoy trying to do the same. See if you can come up with short, clear descriptions of what these words mean such that one could easily decide if a given idea meets them as I did for wisdom - knowledge of what will bring relatively lasting satisfaction in life, that is, knowing what to pursue and what to avoid to be satisfied - perhaps in a mate, or a career as I suggested. This is no place for soft thinking and fuzzy definitions.
 
Sorry, and no problem.

@PureX wrote, "Too often religions dress their idealism up in mythical, metaphorical, symbolic robes so thick that the average person has no sense at all as to how these ideals might be applied in real life. It ends up being a lot of empty artifice and people feel dejected. After all, what good is a God that has no practical function?" I agree. I wanted whatever you could provide to help me rule out that it would be something like that.

With all due respect, you are recommending a philosophical treatise that you describe in terms that you weren't able to define: wisdom, spiritual growth, and enlightenment. I'd be happy to explore any intriguing perspective, but too much of this type of material has turned out to be a disappointment in the past. My best guess is that your source contains nothing of value that isn't already a part of my humanist worldview simply because this has virtually always been the case in the past with others, so I need more than just a title and a link to want to look further. I was hoping you could identify a couple of specific examples of what it is in that resource that makes you recommend it. You called it profound - why?

I'm going to digress a bit into what I call rigorous thinking and soft thinking. Rigorous thought - or critical thought - is focused and concentrated, and based in evidence and rules of inference. Soft thinking is more diffuse. I liken them to the times I studied guitar and music in mathematical terms (scales, intervals, chords, tempos and times, keys, and the like), and the times I was playing. One focuses thought like a laser to study and understand, then changes to a different mode of thought to create.

Soft thinking is an important part of conscious experience - the most important. It includes feelings and intuitions, fears and desires, a sense of security and belonging, and the like. Lose that, and you lose meaning and purpose, as well as the ability to experience enthusiasm in a connection to one's surroundings (spiritual experience) - the anhedonism of depression that sometimes leads to suicide. I want to emphasize the importance I place in this type of thinking EXCEPT when trying to determine what is true about the world. If one is not rigorous when drawing his mental map of what is real and how the world works, he risks making costly mistakes.

When studying philosophy, I am in rigorous thought mode, just as when studying the foundations of harmony and melody. This is no time for soft thinking, which requires changing focus from sharp to fuzzy, and from concentration to a more receptive and passive state of thinking. That great for art, but not intellectual pursuits. So, I was looking for something from you to suggest that you were like-minded, and that I might find interesting what you find interesting. Or, is your approach more like what I am accustomed to - somebody read something that made them feel like it was important, but can't say how or why. You used the word enlightenment. What light do you see, and what is it illuminating?

So, I ask you to provide something that would justify reading the book you recommend, something to pique interest besides your enthusiasm, something that shows me that our thinking is enough alike that I would find value in your recommendation, and perhaps a few representative examples. A good start would be what you consider wisdom to be. I've now given you my definition of what that is as well as an understanding of what I mean by a spiritual experience, and enlightenment. You might enjoy trying to do the same. See if you can come up with short, clear descriptions of what these words mean such that one could easily decide if a given idea meets them as I did for wisdom - knowledge of what will bring relatively lasting satisfaction in life, that is, knowing what to pursue and what to avoid to be satisfied - perhaps in a mate, or a career as I suggested. This is no place for soft thinking and fuzzy definitions.

Hello, @PureX – You make an interesting distinction between hard thinking and soft thinking. What we’re discussing, though, can be best understood and experienced through no thinking, going beyond thoughts and the intellect into transcendental consciousness, the state of samadhi in meditation. Thoughts drop away and you experience pure awareness, just awareness itself without an object. It’s a state of emptiness that actually contains everything because it’s your interface to the unified field out of which all matter and energy manifest. The source of this manifestation is God, so it’s filled with joy and love. Quite wonderful.

This may not make sense to someone who hasn’t experienced it, but it’s a very real state. The best way I’ve found to experience it is Transcendental Meditation. TM doesn’t involve concentrating or controlling the mind, which are mental activities and not very helpful in reaching the nonactive state of samadhi. But even with TM it’s usually brief at the beginning.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hello, @PureX – You make an interesting distinction between hard thinking and soft thinking. What we’re discussing, though, can be best understood and experienced through no thinking, going beyond thoughts and the intellect into transcendental consciousness, the state of samadhi in meditation. Thoughts drop away and you experience pure awareness, just awareness itself without an object. It’s a state of emptiness that actually contains everything because it’s your interface to the unified field out of which all matter and energy manifest. The source of this manifestation is God, so it’s filled with joy and love. Quite wonderful.

This may not make sense to someone who hasn’t experienced it, but it’s a very real state. The best way I’ve found to experience it is Transcendental Meditation. TM doesn’t involve concentrating or controlling the mind, which are mental activities and not very helpful in reaching the nonactive state of samadhi. But even with TM it’s usually brief at the beginning.
I understand that there are folks that pursue this kind of euphoric spiritual experience, and that is, of course, their choice. But for myself, personally, I've never been so inclined; for a number of reasons. And I rarely meet anyone else that is (though I don't run in those circles).

For most people, I think, religion is seen as being a set of tools intended to help people cope with the everyday disappointments and confusion of life, and to do so in accordance with some preferred theological ideal. Meditation and achieving a state of 'divine bliss' are certainly among those tools, but in Abrahamic traditions, at least, they not so commonly employed. And the tools that are employed tend to be prayer, service to others, honesty/confession, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and so on. All tools involved in the difficult task of living life with other humans. And it's in this regard that religion needs to be as clear and practically minded as possible. And it's in this area that I see many of them falling far short. Because it's easy to post a list of "do's and don't's" on a piece of paper, while it's quite another to apply them in real life with a reasoned assurance of achieving the hoped for result. So the purveyors of religion tend to hide behind their paper dogmas, and avoid the difficulty involved in the actual application of that dogma. Causing their formulation and presentation of religion to become overly cerebral while being way too weak in actual practice. Resulting in adherents that shout from the rooftops about gays and abortion while never lifting a finger to help their elderly neighbor unplug her toilet, or paint her fence. It's religion of the mind, but not the heart.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I don't know a whole lot about Hindu, but I'm pretty sure it's the same where trying to make it practical is going to lead to faulty conclusions and erroneous interpretations.
Don't compare 'internet snake-oil sellers' to Hindus. They would paste their blurb/ad wherever they can, and as many time as they can. They want people to visit their site and in the end pay for something or the other.

That seems to be the problem with the OP. In all his posts, he directs us to a particular site. I am concerned that the forum should not be used as an advertising medium. Why repeat all the time? If any member is interested, he/she will go to that site or make a search on internet for the kind of information he/she wants.
I was going to mention something similar. And, in response to @PureX PureX's post, some religions may benefit from being so ambiguous, especially one such as Hinduism since Hindu beliefs vary so widely. I don't think Bhagavad Gita is meant to have only one interpretation, only one outline for how to live life. Maybe the readers are meant to impose their own interpretations to their needs accordingly.
That is correct. I am a strong atheist and a strict advaitist. Therefore, I deny all Gods and Goddesses. I am no one's 'bhakta'. I reject all mention of Godhead and take a different meaning from Gita.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What we’re discussing, though, can be best understood and experienced through no thinking, going beyond thoughts and the intellect into transcendental consciousness, the state of samadhi in meditation. Thoughts drop away and you experience pure awareness, just awareness itself without an object. It’s a state of emptiness that actually contains everything because it’s your interface to the unified field out of which all matter and energy manifest. The source of this manifestation is God, so it’s filled with joy and love. Quite wonderful.

This may not make sense to someone who hasn’t experienced it, but it’s a very real state. The best way I’ve found to experience it is Transcendental Meditation. TM doesn’t involve concentrating or controlling the mind, which are mental activities and not very helpful in reaching the nonactive state of samadhi. But even with TM it’s usually brief at the beginning.
One cannot go beyond thoughts. What is 'pure awareness'? Don't get us into a 'Shabda-jajala' - maze of words. Define precisely what this 'pure awareness' is. If there are no objects, what will you be aware of? And who and what is God, and how a state of emptiness (silliness?) takes you to God? What is your evidence for this God? Most of us here know what meditation is, you do not need to explain it to us.
 
I understand that there are folks that pursue this kind of euphoric spiritual experience, and that is, of course, their choice. But for myself, personally, I've never been so inclined; for a number of reasons. And I rarely meet anyone else that is (though I don't run in those circles).

For most people, I think, religion is seen as being a set of tools intended to help people cope with the everyday disappointments and confusion of life, and to do so in accordance with some preferred theological ideal. Meditation and achieving a state of 'divine bliss' are certainly among those tools, but in Abrahamic traditions, at least, they not so commonly employed. And the tools that are employed tend to be prayer, service to others, honesty/confession, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and so on. All tools involved in the difficult task of living life with other humans. And it's in this regard that religion needs to be as clear and practically minded as possible. And it's in this area that I see many of them falling far short. Because it's easy to post a list of "do's and don't's" on a piece of paper, while it's quite another to apply them in real life with a reasoned assurance of achieving the hoped for result. So the purveyors of religion tend to hide behind their paper dogmas, and avoid the difficulty involved in the actual application of that dogma. Causing their formulation and presentation of religion to become overly cerebral while being way too weak in actual practice. Resulting in adherents that shout from the rooftops about gays and abortion while never lifting a finger to help their elderly neighbor unplug her toilet, or paint her fence. It's religion of the mind, but not the heart.
I understand that there are folks that pursue this kind of euphoric spiritual experience, and that is, of course, their choice. But for myself, personally, I've never been so inclined; for a number of reasons. And I rarely meet anyone else that is (though I don't run in those circles).

For most people, I think, religion is seen as being a set of tools intended to help people cope with the everyday disappointments and confusion of life, and to do so in accordance with some preferred theological ideal. Meditation and achieving a state of 'divine bliss' are certainly among those tools, but in Abrahamic traditions, at least, they not so commonly employed. And the tools that are employed tend to be prayer, service to others, honesty/confession, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and so on. All tools involved in the difficult task of living life with other humans. And it's in this regard that religion needs to be as clear and practically minded as possible. And it's in this area that I see many of them falling far short. Because it's easy to post a list of "do's and don't's" on a piece of paper, while it's quite another to apply them in real life with a reasoned assurance of achieving the hoped for result. So the purveyors of religion tend to hide behind their paper dogmas, and avoid the difficulty involved in the actual application of that dogma. Causing their formulation and presentation of religion to become overly cerebral while being way too weak in actual practice. Resulting in adherents that shout from the rooftops about gays and abortion while never lifting a finger to help their elderly neighbor unplug her toilet, or paint her fence. It's religion of the mind, but not the heart.
This is a wonderfully articulate presentation of the materialist position. I wish I could write so clearly about abstract topics. It could be right. But my experience of the Divine tells me it’s not.
 
One cannot go beyond thoughts. What is 'pure awareness'? Don't get us into a 'Shabda-jajala' - maze of words. Define precisely what this 'pure awareness' is. If there are no objects, what will you be aware of? And who and what is God, and how a state of emptiness (silliness?) takes you to God? What is your evidence for this God? Most of us here know what meditation is, you do not need to explain it to us.
Since transcendental consciousness in meditation is a state beyond thoughts, it’s also beyond words. It needs to be experienced; then it becomes perfectly clear.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This is a wonderfully articulate presentation of the materialist position. I wish I could write so clearly about abstract topics. It could be right. But my experience of the Divine tells me it’s not.
I'm puzzled why you think I'm being abstract when I am trying to illuminate the collective practicality of religion. And what about your experience of the Divine tells you that it is not meant to be so practical, or collective?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Since transcendental consciousness in meditation is a state beyond thoughts, it’s also beyond words. It needs to be experienced; then it becomes perfectly clear.
I experienced it many decades ago. Then contemplation made it clear to me. Remaining beyond thought is not possible and it solves no problem. It is contemplation which solves problems (Dhyāna, Manan, Dharana).
 
I'm puzzled why you think I'm being abstract when I am trying to illuminate the collective practicality of religion. And what about your experience of the Divine tells you that it is not meant to be so practical, or collective?
The experience of the thoughtless state of transcendental consciousness isn’t religious and isn’t “meant” to be anything. What we do with it is up to us. The physiological changes in brain waves and metabolic rate gradually relieve stress and give us more energy and clarity in activity. That’s very practical.
 
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