Pornography

[mr.guy]

*sings loudly and out of tune* "Freedom isnt free, it costs folks like you and me!.....a buck o' five!"

I think Kristofferson trumps...

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Ya know, I've observed more than a few folks stating that (in essence), "porn is wrong (or evil, bad, destructive, etc.)", but offer virtually no support for their position (beyond personalized opinion).

What, people are posting their opinions? What is this discussion board coming to?

I can't help but be reminded of the (alcohol) prohibitionists of the early 20th century in this regard.

Booze is bad.
Booze made me do bad things.
I've seen others do bad things drinking booze.
I can't control my bad actions when I drink booze.
Therefore, no one should be able to drink booze, because booze is bad for everyone.

Not quite. The issue at hand is not whether pornography should be censored or illegalized (I do not recall anyone bringing this up). I certainly do not think it should be illegalized.

I believe in personal freedom to choose for oneself...what to choose for oneself.

I doubt anyone here disagrees with this point. And to add to what you said, healthy discussion certainly helps in those choices, which brings us to our next point:

Your conscientious counsel and objections are noted, but don't tell me what I can or can not responsibly choose for myself.

Focus on your own damn family.

Hmm.. I do not think anyone is suggesting they have authority over you or anyone else. I am not sure why you feel this way. Do you believe any discussion on morality and ethics is inapprorpiate?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Isn't it a bit weird to accuse someone of "nastiness" for being coherent?

Speaking of coherency, I do not follow your point. Are nastiness and coherency mutally exclusive?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

An important point of this discussion is that millions of men dig themselves into holes because of an uncontrolled sex drive. No doubt the male sex drive is formidable and assertive, but it also has sharp and deep claws. Men may be scathed with an unwanted pregnancy, an STD, an embarrassing situation, or a fragmentation of the trust held by their spouse. Our they may be wounded more deeply with a broken family. All because of a bad choice that came from a sudden and uncontrolled "primal urge". I believe most men will at some time in their lives receive their fair share of cuts and scratches.

I'm not saying sex is inherently bad, because that is simply not the case. It is a vital component to a healthy spousal relationship. But men continually get themselves into trouble with misguided sexual desires (think of all of the books, poems and plays throughout history on this theme). It is my opinion we ought to tame the instinct to the best of our ability so that it can be engaged at the appropriate times and subdued at the inappropriate times.

Hopefully, as men, we can avoid the deep wounds in our lives. I do not believe that the men that have these wounds are chosen by some cosmic pair of dice, but rather, their sudden "bad-choice" is the consequence of years and years of habitual behavior. People would like to think that indulging in certain behaviors does not change who we are, but there are certain neural pathways that become strengthened as habits develop. It is hard to believe the ones nurtured by indulgency in pornography (particularly when done in secrecy) are going to help men in sexual struggles they will inevitably face later in life.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[Buttercup]

I really respect your views atofel, especially because you are a man. It is a rare man indeed that eschews pornography in this modern age of computers. I also think this paragraph is spot on...you are an insightful soul! I know men personally who have gotten their marriages in trouble by thinking this path was ok for them.

People would like to think that indulging in certain behaviors does not change who we are, but there are certain neural pathways that become strengthened as habits develop. It is hard to believe the ones nurtured by indulgency in pornography (particularly when done in secrecy) are going to help men in sexual struggles they will inevitably face later in life.

 

[mr.guy]

It is hard to believe the ones nurtured by indulgency in pornography (particularly when done in secrecy) are going to help men in sexual struggles they will inevitably face later in life.

That's pretty much it though, isn't it? A belief statement. Personally, i find it hard to believe that extreme sexual suppression is any more of a golden ticket. Why would "indulgers" be viewing porn in secret if not for the associated shame that puritans like yourself propagate? This internal logic of the sexual "beast taming" we hear so much of is just tired victorian chatter. Good luck with it, Dr.Kellog.

 

[Buttercup]

That's pretty much it though, isn't it? A belief statement. Personally, i find it hard to believe that extreme sexual suppression

Do you think not looking at porn is extreme sexual suppression? Or just having to do it in secret is extreme sexual suppression? I imagine the majority of men who are married and view porn do it in secret...or at least downplay the habit quite a bit to their wives.

I view men who do not look at porn as quite refreshing actually. Getting more and more rare in this day and age.

 

[godfree1]

What is your stance on this?

I thoroughly enjoy pornography in all formats. Men are visual creatures, I've found.

I view it as degrading.

All of the men I see in pornography always seem to be completely enjoying themselves. I haven't seen any "degrading" moments in any of the pornography I rent, but then I'm not into S&M. I view pornography as foreplay, and a natural male ... uh, enhancement.

But for some people it can be good ( so i'm told ), as in a friend who only views it because he doesn't have the time to get a girlfriend ( Yes, it sounds stupid to me too ).

Pornography is great for me, as it is for millions of of other men, and I have a fantastic boyfriend that I still share it with after twelve wonderful years together.

What do you think?

I think I'm going to take a trip to my local distributor later on this afternoon in order to rent a few choice titles. So far, I'm still free to do that where I live.

If this is deemed in anyway offensive then delete.

It might only be offensive here in the decidedly sex-phobic country we share.

:help:​

 

[Nick Soapdish]

That's pretty much it though, isn't it? A belief statement. Personally, i find it hard to believe that extreme sexual suppression is any more of a golden ticket. Why would "indulgers" be viewing porn in secret if not for the associated shame that puritans like yourself propagate? This internal logic of the sexual "beast taming" we hear so much of is just tired victorian chatter. Good luck with it, Dr.Kellog.

I can it see it would be convenient to characterize me as some victorian stooge out to repress sexuality, but that does not represent my philosophy at all. I am all for open communication and dialogue on sexuality (particularly with young people) and believe sex is something that should be celebrated and cherished. I am for education, not condemnation.

I find it odd that anyone would take the position that there are certain instincts or urges that a man ought not attempt to temper or control. Every man should seek to have full command of their faculties. I suspect this is not your position (and hope it is not), but so far you have not given any indication that your ethic isn't prioritized by exciting the physical senses as much as possible.

 

[ch'ang]

Every man should seek to have full command of their faculties

To deny your urges is to deny who you are. Most people are taught to find certain things about themselves as undesirable or animalistic and so they repress them thinking they have done good. To really live "your" life and not someone’s else’s view of how you should live you need to let yourself go

 

[mr.guy]

I find it odd that anyone would take the position that there are certain instincts or urges that a man ought not attempt to temper or control.

Then baffle yourself away; it's unlikely you'll make much sense of any dissenting arguments or statements with such a binary approach.

Every man should seek to have full command of their faculties.

Towards what end?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

To deny your urges is to deny who you are.....To really live "your" life and not someone’s else’s view of how you should live you need to let yourself go

What an odd blanket statement to make. If you were to counsel a cocaine addict, what would you tell him?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Then baffle yourself away;

Of course, it would be a lot easier for me to understand your position if you actually put forth an argument for it rather than play the continuous critic.

it's unlikely you'll make much sense of any dissenting arguments or statements with such a binary approach.

I'm not sure how this maps back to my statement.

Towards what end?

To find and scoop out the best adventure that we can have in this life.

 

[Isabella Lecour]

The T.V. set, violent games, porn, ciggs, beer, guns, drugs, ect; all have a single common problem. When not done in moderation, lots of people get upset and/or get hurt, and can cause a lot of problems; in most cases. Yes, moderation is subjective to the world view one holds.

What happened to personal responsibility? What happened to indulging in moderation?
Why pass the buck and let out the scape goat? Own up to your own problems and fix them.

Are we really confusing one's erotica as another's porn?

Yes making love takes practice, sex does not. Well, not much practice to get the general mechanics on how to make a baby. Lovemaking can take a lifetime and then some to get right. Adult films only show snipped together action sequences of sex. Learning new things to try in love, makes for a wonderful physical song. Sex and love are not the same thing. So how can adult film erotica and/or/both porn degrade woman, when woman choose to participate in it? Are people thinking that sex degrades a woman?

What happens beyond the camera we don't see, so we don't really know how fellow adult film participants treat each other. I postulate, that if it was degrading for those woman, these films would not look at all like they do today. Nor would we see repeat actors and actresses. We would be seeing things much more disturbing and illegal.

Parents count for a lot in how their children view the world. If you parents views porn as degrading, good chance that you will think the same too. Character counts just as much if not more so. I've seen bad parents sprout good children and good parents sprout bad children.

How a man /woman treats a woman /man, s/he's learned most of it from a lot more sources than adult films. Singling out one factor to a social problem is not the hot potato it looks to be. Look at his family, his friends, his relationships with other people, what he reads or watches, and what he does for entertainment. And pay attention to how he treats the waitress. Character counts.

If a spouse thinks viewing adult porn in secret is infelidity, there is a problem in the marriage. Might be anything from insecurity, stress, religion, control issues, sexual disfunction, different views about porn or a real indicator of a much bigger problem. Next to money, sex breaks up marriages. And I don't have any hard sources for the source hounds.

Watching Oprah years ago she had couples who celebrated their 60th wedding annversity and had them tell their secrets to success. It's communication, humor and love.

Sex was mysteriously not mentioned. It's the oldest preoccupation of humanity.

 

[godfree1]

To deny your urges is to deny who you are.

:clap Here, here!

Most people are taught to find certain things about themselves as undesirable or animalistic and so they repress them thinking they have done good.

I wonder what horrific, lingering social disease can be squarely blamed for such repression.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

To deny your urges is to deny who you are.:clap Here, here!

Just so I can understand, are we cheering the victory of fear, anxiety, jealousy, greed, lust and anger over any ideals that might stand in their way?

 

[afdragon2006]

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: Sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is adotary.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
It's Gods will that you should be sanctified: that you should evoid sexual immorality.

 

[Aqualung]

And what is it about pornography that makes you think it is a sexual immorality? (I'm just asking out of curiousity, since I agree with you.)

 

[s2a]

Hello atofel,

When I said:

"Ya know, I've observed more than a few folks stating that (in essence), "porn is wrong (or evil, bad, destructive, etc.)", but offer virtually no support for their position (beyond personalized opinion)."

You countered in inept riposte inquiry:

"What, people are posting their opinions? What is this discussion board coming to?"

I did not object to the posting of "opinions". I noted the lack of support in voicing of said opinions. Such support is only necessary/important if you wish to persuade others to accede/accept your own lent perspective. If you simply want to be the railing unshaven evangelist on the streetcorner of injustice, then rant away...and reap the respect you prospectively sow.

"The issue at hand is not whether pornography should be censored or illegalized (I do not recall anyone bringing this up). I certainly do not think it should be illegalized."

Bully for you. Props to your constitutionally-protected respect for freedom of speech/expression. How magnanimous of you.

But if you wish to propose/suggest that many Christians DO NOT seek to censor (or otherwise legally prohibit) porn, then you reside within a reality of one (or distinct few). The issues I raise are directly relevant to the issue at hand.

When I said:
"Your conscientious counsel and objections are noted, but don't tell me what I can or can not responsibly choose for myself.

Focus on your own damn family."

You offered:

Hmm.. I do not think anyone is suggesting they have authority over you or anyone else. I am not sure why you feel this way. Do you believe any discussion on morality and ethics is inapprorpiate?

Asserted "personal" authority (as in, "I am your King")...no.
"Moral authority" (as in, "I speak for the Word of the God of the Bible"), you betcha.
The lent (or suggested) "authority" of the Judeo/Christian Bible or (its associative) Scripture is predicated solely upon the notion that such work is the "ultimate authority" (of which, so many amateur claimants profess to be pious "experts' thereof).

If you like, I'll remind you of the initial premise/question that initiated this thread:

"Pornography -
What is your stance on this?
I view it as degrading.
But for some people it can be good (so i'm told ), as in a friend who only views it because he doesn't have the time to get a girlfriend ( Yes, it sounds stupid to me too ).
What do you think?"

Well...I offered my "stance" (one) within this very thread. Would you care to address/rebut any of the comments I have offered...*specifically*?

In counter to your inference that I would seek to suppress/minimalize discussion/debate specific to the topic-at-hand, I invite you to specifically and categorically state (or reference) your own qualified statements regarding the ethical/moral nature of pornography (as it may apply) in a secularly "free" society. What are the ethical/moral implications of porn, absent any religious dogma?

Is porn "good", or "bad" (or degrading"), or amoral?

What do you think?

That's the question at hand, that awaits your answer (and substantiative argumentative support).

;-)

 

[Nick Soapdish]

I did not object to the posting of "opinions". I noted the lack of support in voicing of said opinions.

Well ok. Within the context of what is moral or ethical, what sort of "support" are you looking for? In other words, what do you consider to be the moral authority or justification that would validate any sort of evidence?

Bully for you. Props to your constitutionally-protected respect for freedom of speech/expression. How magnanimous of you.

But if you wish to propose/suggest that many Christians DO NOT seek to censor (or otherwise legally prohibit) porn, then you reside within a reality of one (or distinct few). The issues I raise are directly relevant to the issue at hand.

I am not aware of any Christian doctrine that discusses legislation of pornography. Nor do I not represent this universal opinion of those Christian people that you seem to have. There may be some people out there that seek this legislation in the name of Christianity, but I am not one of them. Asserting such generalizations about your audience will likely lead to miscommunication.

Asserted "personal" authority (as in, "I am your King")...no.
"Moral authority" (as in, "I speak for the Word of the God of the Bible"), you betcha.
The lent (or suggested) "authority" of the Judeo/Christian Bible or (its associative) Scripture is predicated solely upon the notion that such work is the "ultimate authority" (of which, so many amateur claimants profess to be pious "experts' thereof).

I would be happy to review any Christian doctrine that you know of which suggests I am given any sort of authority over you simply based on my faith. So given I do not believe this, and given you do not believe in the Judeo/Christian God, why again do you feel anyone has a moral authority over you?

Unless you are simply stating that anyone who has a strong opinion about morality is imposing a moral authority on you, regardless of who they are or where that sense of morality originates.

Well...I offered my "stance" (one) within this very thread. Would you care to address/rebut any of the comments I have offered...*specifically*?

Actually, I did respond to your initial post here (sorry if you missed it):

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25321&page=2#post329097

To summarize, you seem to infer that because pornography has always been around it must not be bad, and because it helps progress, it must actually be good (let me know if my summary does not adequately capture some of the important subtleties).

My response would be that most immoral behaviors have always been around (so why does that make a difference), and there have been some pretty horrific things done in the name of progress (so the progress-correlation does not absolve it from being immoral).

However, I will grant you that it is difficult to argue that something is not immoral without countering the arguments that claim that it is immoral, so then ....

In counter to your inference that I would seek to suppress/minimalize discussion/debate specific to the topic-at-hand, I invite you to specifically and categorically state (or reference) your own qualified statements regarding the ethical/moral nature of pornography (as it may apply) in a secularly "free" society. What are the ethical/moral implications of porn, absent any religious dogma?

Is porn "good", or "bad" (or degrading"), or amoral?

What do you think?

That's the question at hand, that awaits your answer (and substantiative argumentative support).

;-)

I did offer two posts with arguments against pornography, and they are both absent of religious dogma. The first post is the one I linked above, and here is the second:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=330887#post330887

Enjoy