Pope Francis says death penalty not aligned with the Gospel.

[Sand Dancer]

I believe the Pope is in error here. The death penalty was given by God in (Gen. 9:6). I see no where it has been revoked.

That there is mercy and grace found in Jesus Christ does not revoke the death penalty. That given in (Gen. 9:6) was to all of mankind which was the future descendants of Noah.

The Church has no death penalty. But you don't run a nation like a church.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Jesus refuted eye for an eye.

 

[74x12]

Yahweh, yes. Jesus, no.

You made my point for me because Jesus is Yah. You're making two Gods. Illogical from my point of view.

Jesus doesn't refute Yah and Yah doesn't refute Jesus. Perfect agreement between the Father and the Son. The Son is the Father manifest in human form.

So Jesus also gives authority to governments to execute murderers. But, He will forgive a murderer if they truly repent for it. But you must differentiate between God's Law and human Law. A Human law cannot determine by itself who has truly repented and who has not. So it has to have a just law that impartially distributes justice for murders committed. And then it's up to God to forgive someone's soul in eternity or not.

 

[Sand Dancer]

You made my point for me because Jesus is Yah. You're making two Gods. Illogical from my point of view.

Jesus doesn't refute Yah and Yah doesn't refute Jesus. Perfect agreement between the Father and the Son. The Son is the Father manifest in human form.

So Jesus also gives authority to governments to execute murderers. But, He will forgive a murderer if they truly repent for it. But you must differentiate between God's Law and human Law. A Human law cannot determine by itself who has truly repented and who has not. So it has to have a just law that impartially distributes justice for murders committed. And then it's up to God to forgive someone's soul in eternity or not.

They didn't exactly have the same values. Your view of the Bible is pretty skewed.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Jesus refuted eye for an eye.

Where?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[pearl]

I believe the Pope is in error here. The death penalty was given by God in (Gen. 9:6). I see no where it has been revoked.

Even the Eye for an Eye evolved from the barbaric practice of murdering a whole village for the action of one.
I think there is further evolvement with Jesus; 'let anyone without sin....' .

There are many countries and here many states that have ended the death penalty apart from religion as humanity continues to evolve. It is obvious that the death penalty is not the deterrent it was once thought to be.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Even the Eye for an Eye evolved from the barbaric practice of murdering a whole village for the action of one.
I think there is further evolvement with Jesus; 'let anyone without sin....' .

There are many countries and here many states that have ended the death penalty apart from religion as humanity continues to evolve. It is obvious that the death penalty is not the deterrent it was once thought to be.

I don't think so.

I'm sure there is. The Scripture chapter and verse would be nice. Yes, I know where it is and could find it easily. But it still should be given.

The purpose of the death penalty is not to deter but punish. It does assure the one that is guilty doesn't do it again.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Etritonakin]

Both the Pope and I oppose the death penalty, period. I was baptized a United Methodist in 1981 and my church then opposed the death penalty in its social principles.

Pope Francis changes church's teaching on the death penalty

At that 2017 ceremony, Francis said the death penalty violates the Gospel and amounts to the voluntary killing of a human life, which "is always sacred in the eyes of the creator."

Besides for Christian reasons, I feel that the criminal justice system is sometimes flawed, even with the best intentions, and wrongly convicts the innocent to die by the state. Being confined for life should be the maximum punishment for the most heinous of offenses.

In the following, people were about to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery -ACCORDING TO BIBLICAL LAW given under the old covenant. More correctly, according to JUDGMENTS UNDER THE LAW. THE LAW being the ten commandments which were WRITTEN IN STONE. JUDGMENTS, however, are, as it were, WRITTEN IN SAND -and change according to what is necessary for the present phase of God's overall plan. The old covenant prepared a people for the new covenant -and it was time for judgments to change in order to further prepare a people to become children of God and citizens of the kingdom of God -who will "not hurt or destroy".

John 8:3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Under the old covenant, sin was removed from Israel by literally removing sinners by death at times -while the necessary mindset was taking root in them.
They had limited power and ability to remove sin from themselves in letter or spirit.
The new covenant focuses more on removing sin from the sinners themselves -and God making available his spirit to many (a spirit of "power, love and of a sound mind) makes possible removing sin from the sinner more so in letter and also in spirit.

If a government -or any part thereof -seeks to align with Christ's teachings, they will likewise not condemn or put to death -but they are still responsible for making decisions to protect the innocent and vulnerable.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

death penalty is not consistent with NT. Pope is correct.

Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[pearl]

I'm sure there is. The Scripture chapter and verse would be nice. Yes, I know where it is and could find it easily. But it still should be given.[/QUOTE}

'But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.' John 7:8

The purpose of the death penalty is not to deter but punish. It does assure the one that is guilty doesn't do it again.

Seeking revenge is the purpose of the death penalty. Life in prison without parole is punishment, actually a death sentence in itself. The death penalty is no more than state sanctioned murder. And since we are the 'state' it is done in 'our' name.

 

[pearl]

Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira.

Apparently because they lied to the Holy Spirit

 

[leov]

Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira.

It is a theological issue , people did not execute them, lets say, they had a heart attack and ambulance was too slow...it was their time to die.
My issue is forgiveness, death penalty robs of such opportunity as well as repentance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Apparently because they lied to the Holy Spirit

... and were executed for it.

It is a theological issue , people did not execute them, lets say, they had a heart attack and ambulance was too slow...it was their time to die.

The text is actually ambiguous about whether they were killed by people or by God, but it seems like an endorsement of capital punishment either way. If it's God doing the killing, this would mean that God's so okay with capital punishment that he's willing to do it himself.

My issue is forgiveness, death penalty robs of such opportunity as well as repentance.

Not in the Catholic view (which I think is relevant, since we're talking about the Pope). If anything, execution would make salvation, forgiveness and repentance more likely.

If you know exactly when someone is going to die, you can arrange confession to happen immediately before in order to minimize the chances of a mortal sin happening between absolution and death. If someone dies naturally, forgiveness is much more of a crap shoot.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Where?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Seriously, dude? You have read the Bible I hope. Mt 5:38-48. Whenever Jesus says, "You have heard that..." and then says, "But I say..." he is refuting the OT.

 

[leov]

... and were executed for it.

The text is actually ambiguous about whether they were killed by people or by God, but it seems like an endorsement of capital punishment either way. If it's God doing the killing, this would mean that God's so okay with capital punishment that he's willing to do it himself.


Not in the Catholic view (which I think is relevant, since we're talking about the Pope). If anything, execution would make salvation, forgiveness and repentance more likely.

If you know exactly when someone is going to die, you can arrange confession to happen immediately before in order to minimize the chances of a mortal sin happening between absolution and death. If someone dies naturally, forgiveness is much more of a crap shoot.

Theological issue is lie to Holy Spirit, it us an archetypal event , most likely never happened or something similar happened and a Gnostic type archetypical mythological story was invented.
Bible is a theological school book, not history book.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Theological issue is lie to Holy Spirit, it us an archetypal event , most likely never happened or something similar happened and a Gnostic type archetypical mythological story was invented.

I agree it probably didn't happen either - at least not exactly as described - but that's irrelevant to whether it's part of the New Testament.

 

[leov]

Seriously, dude? You have read the Bible I hope. Mt 5:38-48. Whenever Jesus says, "You have heard that..." and then says, "But I say..." he is refuting the OT.

He explained v.20 - new type of consciousness was required, basically, bicameral to introspective transition.

 

[leov]

I agree it probably didn't happen either - at least not exactly as described - but that's irrelevant to whether it's part of the New Testament.

It does not endorse death penalty by government or people just an acknowledgement of bicameral minds among them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It does not endorse death penalty by government or people just an acknowledgement of bicameral minds among them.

I have no idea what you mean by "bicameral minds."

I'd say that nothing in the New Testament suggests anything about what governments should do. I think the early Christians expected that their religion would always be on the margins of society and would never have enough power to influence government policy.

 

[leov]

I have no idea what you mean by "bicameral minds."

I'd say that nothing in the New Testament suggests anything about what governments should do. I think the early Christians expected that their religion would always be on the margins of society and would never have enough power to influence government policy.

Basically, Bicameralism (psychology) - Wikipedia
Bible in part devoted to transition of bicameral mind to introspective.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

@pcarl

Concerning your messed up post #(49), (John 7:8) doesn't say that.

I don't care if you call the death penalty revenge. I don't care if you call it murder. As I showed, it is God who sanctioned it. (Gen. 9:6)

Good-Ole-Rebel