Poll: Would you ban the Nazi Flag?

[Debater Slayer]

I still believe in free speech. I may find some symbols offensive, but I don't think I can demand the "right" not to be offended.

I think there's a major difference between merely being offended and opposing symbols that actually call for genocide, mass murder, and violence. The former have no objective basis for being banned; the latter constitute support for criminal activity, terrorism, and compromising of other groups' safety and basic rights.

 

[George-ananda]

Would you say the same about showing a symbol in support of al-Qaida or ISIS?

Yes, I trust we are strong enough to police and protect ourselves. And censorship is a tricky slope. What is banned next? What symbols are illegal and who decides that?

If they start threatening anyone with violence then it becomes a crime.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Fascist and Nazi symbols are banned in many countries, in others they are simply not shown because of the peer pressure that they engender.
At the very least they should be discouraged.

Yeah, there’d be real cause for worry if Nazi emblems ever became socially acceptable. Or, God forbid, got flown from a public building anywhere in a democratic country. I’d support legislation to prevent the latter, but hope it would never prove necessary.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No. If anything it's better to let them openly self identify and spew their stuff so you know who they are and what they're up to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This seems like a good place to consider Popper's Paradox.
The US is so obsessed with free speech that it's allowed quite a lot of radical extremist groups to ferment, and have more platforms and powers than if they were soundly rejected from public spaces. We come to be numbed to and used to extremist viewpoints, to the extent that we start 'both siding' and 'give them a chance.'

Free speech to the extremes that are values by some Americans has made the US less free, not more. It'd go so far as to say it's at least one of the reasons why we are the last in every civil rights battle we've ever had.

View attachment 55937

That grossly over simplifies things. Germany was long an intolerant society long before the Nazis. Nietzsche bemoaned the anti-semitism of pre-Nazi Germany, and Wagner wrote songs that played well into the pro-Teutonic nationalism of the Nazi party (he died several years before Hitler was born).
It wasn't a matter of just hushing people. It was society at large.

 

[Quagmire]

No. I want to see the fools who would present one, and know who they are.

No. If anything it's better to let them openly self identify and spew their stuff so you know who they are and what they're up to.

Good point. Might be a good thing if more people came with warning labels.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That grossly over simplifies things. Germany was long an intolerant society long before the Nazis. Nietzsche bemoaned the anti-semitism of pre-Nazi Germany, and Wagner wrote songs that played well into the pro-Teutonic nationalism of the Nazi party (he died several years before Hitler was born).
It wasn't a matter of just hushing people. It was society at large.

I don't think Popper's point was that Nazi suddenly arose out of nowhere but that giving platforms to extremists proliferates extremism.

When the extremists first formed a party they were largely ignored as 'wild extremists who won't get anywhere so don't pay them any mind.' And there were people who thought that seeing the reality of politics would 'tame' Hitler into being more moderate.

Basically, ignoring the problem didn't make it go away.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't think Popper's point was that Nazi suddenly arose out of nowhere but that giving platforms to extremists proliferates extremism.

When the extremists first formed a party they were largely ignored as 'wild extremists who won't get anywhere so don't pay them any mind.' And there were people who thought that seeing the reality of politics would 'tame' Hitler into being more moderate.

Basically, ignoring the problem didn't make it go away.

Hitler was a symptom, not the disease. Hitler just knew how to speak to the average German, reach across the isles, and appeal to a broad spectrum of Germans.
They weren't really ignoring him. The seeds of the extremism were already planted growing before Hitler was even born. Hitler was merely able to reap the harvest.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Hitler was a symptom, not the disease. Hitler just knew how to speak to the average German, reach across the isles, and appeal to a broad spectrum of Germans.
They weren't really ignoring him. The seeds of the extremism were already planted growing before Hitler was even born. Hitler was merely able to reap the harvest.

No objection there, that doesn't really change Popper's Paradox though. Gradually more extreme or suddenly extreme, platforming extremists makes more extremists. The extreme viewpoint that Jews were a dangerous outsider that should be excised to protect national values became normalized through free speech long before it became enforced.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No objection there, that doesn't really change Popper's Paradox though. Gradually more extreme or suddenly extreme, platforming extremists makes more extremists. The extreme viewpoint that Jews were a dangerous outsider that should be excised to protect national values became normalized through free speech long before it became enforced.

Anti-semitism was normalized about two thousand years ago when Christians decided to hold the Jews accountable for killing Jesus (who needed to be killed anyways). It was around long before the idea of freedom of speech amd had been present since then.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Anti-semitism was normalized about two thousand years ago when Christians decided to hold the Jews accountable for killing Jesus (who needed to be killed anyways). It was around long before the idea of freedom of speech amd had been present since then.

That's...missing the point I was making but whatever.

 

[SomeRandom]

Anti-semitism was normalized about two thousand years ago when Christians decided to hold the Jews accountable for killing Jesus (who needed to be killed anyways). It was around long before the idea of freedom of speech amd had been present since then.

I have to agree with @ADigitalArtist.
Hitler might have been a symptom but Germany gave him a platform and as he was a very skilled orator, this allowed him to convert people to his cause. No one even took him that seriously until it was too late. Had he not been given a platform, sure anti semitism would still have existed. But the country probably would have elected someone else. As socialism appealed to folk at the time, it could have even been a leftie who actually believed in socialism. Instead of the Nazis who hid behind the term to gain power.

It’s why mainstream Social Media platforms have much stricter Terms of Service nowadays.
They allowed hate filled rhetoric on their platforms and it cost them money when people became radicalised as a result. And they fear legal ramifications for allowing that to happen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's...missing the point I was making but whatever.

It's not missing the point. The anti-semitism he rode was normalized a very long time ago, before free speech or tolerance were legal ideas and concepts. There were no rights when anti-semitism was normalized. Hitler spoke to tradition. He spoke to Germany. Everything was already there whether he had a platform or not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have to agree with @ADigitalArtist.
Hitler might have been a symptom but Germany gave him a platform and as he was a very skilled orator, this allowed him to convert people to his cause. No one even took him that seriously until it was too late. Had he not been given a platform, sure anti semitism would still have existed. But the country probably would have elected someone else. As socialism appealed to folk at the time, it could have even been a leftie who actually believed in socialism. Instead of the Nazis who hid behind the term to gain power.

That's like saying Trump won people over or made more people white supremacist. They have been there this entire time. They just felt more empowered.
Or we can look at US Reconstruction in the South. President Grant sent the military after the Klan. All it really did was drive them underground, set up shop in Missouri, grow in places that sympathized, and in the end being intolerant of their intolerance didn't fix things.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's not missing the point. The anti-semitism he rode was normalized a very long time ago, before free speech or tolerance were legal ideas and concepts. There were no rights when anti-semitism was normalized. Hitler spoke to tradition. He spoke to Germany. Everything was already there whether he had a platform or not.

His platform was not normalized, which is different than just anti-Semitism as a concept. He lost the popular vote, and had to gather followers through vitriolic public platforms he was allowed after the election and subsequent appointment. Most people highly underestimated how much support he could get and seriously thought that once given power he would mellow out. They ignored him until they could no longer safely do so, and by then it was too late.

If you've never read the reports of the Dodd family, or read In the Garden of Beasts, I highly suggest it.

Nobody is saying that there wasn't anti-Semitism and the seeds of traditionalist facism there, but it may have gone very differently if people took him seriously before he took power.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

His platform was not normalized, which is different than just anti-Semitism as a concept. He lost the popular vote, and had to gather followers through vitriolic public platforms he was allowed after the election and subsequent appointment. Most people highly underestimated how much support he could get and seriously thought that once given power he would mellow out. They ignored him until they could no longer safely do so, and by then it was too late.

If you've never read the reports of the Dodd family, or read In the Garden of Beasts, I highly suggest it.

Nobody is saying that there wasn't anti-Semitism and the seeds of traditionalist facism there, but it may have gone very differently if people took him seriously before he took power.

I tend to think they ignored Germany rather than Hitler. Much like how it shocked people with the support Trump got. Those people have always been there. It's the fault of those who were caught off guard that America would support such a person in large numbers.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I tend to think they ignored Germany rather than Hitler. Much like how it shocked people with the support Trump got. Those people have always been there. It's the fault of those who were caught off guard that America would support such a person in large numbers.

This was German people that were ignoring him, not just people in power. At a ground level the majority of Germans at the time thought that Hitler was a silly extremist man who would mellow with age and politicking. Which is why he was denied the popular vote but still appointed by the winner, a then-popular move. Yes, the seeds were there, but he was the catalyst in ways the common German people as well as the world weren't expecting.

I agree that Trump was a similar case, and people who survived WW2's atrocities were quick to point it out. But we had the benefit of hindsight the German people did not.

Anyway, all this in saying that allowing extremism to foment isn't a good idea for anyone. Including giving them ample room to gather followers.

 

[Wandering Monk]

View attachment 55922 View attachment 55923 Fascists just dream up other ones. As long as it's got red and black you're sorted.

I noticed that in the last Star Wars Trilogy, the First Order flag used this motif.

 

[Wandering Monk]

This was German people that were ignoring him, not just people in power. At a ground level the majority of Germans at the time thought that Hitler was a silly extremist man who would mellow with age and politicking. Which is why he was denied the popular vote but still appointed by the winner, a then-popular move. Yes, the seeds were there, but he was the catalyst in ways the common German people as well as the world weren't expecting.

I agree that Trump was a similar case, and people who survived WW2's atrocities were quick to point it out. But we had the benefit of hindsight the German people did not.

Anyway, all this in saying that allowing extremism to foment isn't a good idea for anyone. Including giving them ample room to gather followers.

America had its won Beer Hall Putsch on January 6. Like Der Fuhrer, Trump keeps pushing the Big Lie about the election and inciting his minions against the Left.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's like saying Trump won people over or made more people white supremacist. They have been there this entire time. They just felt more empowered.
Or we can look at US Reconstruction in the South. President Grant sent the military after the Klan. All it really did was drive them underground, set up shop in Missouri, grow in places that sympathized, and in the end being intolerant of their intolerance didn't fix things.

Exactly. How did they feel empowered in the first place? Someone took the platform and used it to tell them as much. That’s the point.
When the Alt right was rising in power they hid behind “freedom of speech” in order to promote their views. Subtly at first but over time they began to shift their audience’s perception of socially acceptable opinions and phrases to espouse. Under the guise of “it’s all just jokes, bro.” Hitler did very much the same thing. Only without the internet, obviously.