Poll: Gays should be allowed to serve openly in the Military

[Green Gaia]

I think it's more a problem of logistics. The current "don't ask, don't tell" policy has been very effective at allowing homosexuals serve without repercussion - and logistical solutions. The devil is in the details. How do you house homosexuals? Will you place gay men in the female barracks and lesbians in the male barracks? Can that be abused? How do you deal with it in a deployed environment where resources are already stretched?

As it stands, the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy is very misunderstood. Before the policy was instituted, you could be asked and would be expected to disclose the truth under oath. It' has actually been effective at allowing more gays to serve without repercussions.

Most military personell I've worked with are extremely tolerant of other faiths and orientations - that doesn't mean we can afford to further stretch our living arrangements.

Also: do think that recruitment would be assisted more by openly inviting homosexuals, thus alienating homo-phobics, or vica-versa?

Note: I am not anti-homosexual, but I think it's important to look at every angle. Another case of my heart saying yes, and my mind trying to think it through.

I understand that you're saying, to me this whole, "don't ask, don't tell" policy is just the military saying, "we don't know how to protect you from our own people, so don't tell anyone and we're just going to ignore you, but if anyone finds outs, you're outta here!"

If someone is willing to kill and die for their country, why can't they do it while being honest about themselves?

 

[Buttercup]

I think it's more a problem of logistics. The current "don't ask, don't tell" policy has been very effective at allowing homosexuals serve without repercussion - and logistical solutions. The devil is in the details. How do you house homosexuals? Will you place gay men in the female barracks and lesbians in the male barracks? Can that be abused? How do you deal with it in a deployed environment where resources are already stretched?

Why on earth would you even suggest that gay men be placed in female barracks? You honestly think gay men would want that?

 

[yuvgotmel]

Buttercup,

Those really are the types of questions that many personnel in the military would be asking--and even demanding answers for.

 

[Buttercup]

I really hate this topic. It doesn't seem to matter how those of us who have been in the military and speak from first hand experience and knowledge try to put this as delicately as we can, we are taken as being anti-gay/anti-gay in the military. It's simply not true. We are just trying to convey what we have seen and what works. Is it fair or right? No, but it's the best we have now and it's working.

But see this is simply your point of view. Not all military people feel this way. I just asked my husband again what he thought. He said he'd have no problem with it. My entire family feels this way and you are talking about a half dozen veterans. As I said earlier, we have discussed this. My sons have several friends in the Air Force and Navy, we have talked about this. NONE of them care! You don't care yourself. So, who exactly are you saying cares?

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

Did you read the poll that prompted this thread? It's linked to in the OP. The public is ready for this and see this thread where I've provided an article and poll that says 73 percent of military members aren't bothered by lesbians and gays.

I'm afraid I don't put much stock in polls. The samples are often skewed for the groups objective.

 

[Buttercup]

Buttercup,

Those really are the types of questions that many personnel in the military would be asking--and even demanding answers for.

If it were mandated that homosexuals were allowed to serve in the military, it's obvious the men would bunk with the men and the women would bunk with the women. Problem solved.

 

[Moni_Gail]

yuvgotmel, I really must say that the generalizations you are continuing to repeat are just that, generalizations. You may feel that way, which is obvious, but please don't assume that your opinion covers that of most military personnel.

I'd also like to know where you get your numbers that servicemembers come from poor and religious homes. My husband and I are both from Houston, the 4th largest city in the US, neither of our families are religious, and both are upper middle class.

:no:

 

[Green Gaia]

How many good people have been kicked out of the military simply for being gay? What purpose does that serve other than to reinforce the perception that gays and lesbians are not wanted or welcome in the military and by extension, this country.

 

[Mike182]

if service men and women are volunteering to serve their country, fight on the fornt lines, participate in fighting and war, then is the guy or gal next to them in the shower really top on their list of concerns?

if showering really is a massive, irresolvable issue, the it wouldn't take much to just set up a third shower block would it? an possible problems can be overcome, there is no reason to say no.

 

[Draka]

But see this is simply your point of view. Not all military people feel this way. I just asked my husband again what he thought. He said he'd have no problem with it. My entire family feels this way and you are talking about a half dozen veterans. As I said earlier, we have discussed this. My sons have several friends in the Air Force and Navy, we have talked about this. NONE of them care! You don't care yourself. So, who exactly are you saying cares?

I'm just saying that I saw the harassment that exists. So there are people out there. Perhaps ,since one cannot ask someone's sexual orientation as a prerequisite for joining the military...we can go to another question. "Do you have any problem what-so-ever with homosexuals?" If someone does...then don't allow them in. However then you get into another problem. What about those people whose religion is adamently against homosexuality? They'll start screaming discrimination as well. How to resolve such a thing?

 

[Buttercup]

My family isn't poor either. In fact, my husband was trained as an Air Traffic Controller in the Army and makes a great living now. One of the perks of military service.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm just saying that I saw the harassment that exists. So there are people out there. Perhaps ,since one cannot ask someone's sexual orientation as a prerequisite for joining the military...we can go to another question. "Do you have any problem what-so-ever with homosexuals?" If someone does...then don't allow them in. However then you get into another problem. What about those people whose religion is adamently against homosexuality? They'll start screaming discrimination as well. How to resolve such a thing?

They would have to deal with it the same way you do in any job....keep your thoughts to yourself about your religious beliefs.

 

[Draka]

They would have to deal with it the same way you do in any job....keep your thoughts to yourself about your religious beliefs.

But therein lies part of the problem. If you say that people who have a beef with homosexuality can't join the military then you are discriminating against some religions.

I realize this is coming off as "devil's advocate" type stuff. But it's where my mind leads me.

I'll check back in later. Time to watch "The Little Mermaid" with the little one now.

 

[Buttercup]

But therein lies part of the problem. If you say that people who have a beef with homosexuality can't join the military then you are discriminating against some religions.

I never said anything about these people not joining the military. I mean that as it is with any place of employment, if you have a problem with homosexuality because it's against your religion, you keep it to yourself. People will still work in the public sector when they know gays work around them. So, I don't see the difference with the mililtary aspect is what I'm getting at.

 

[Green Gaia]

Should heterosexuals have to keep their sexual orientation a secret and live in fear of losing their job if anyone finds out they are married?

Well, should they? And if not, why should homosexuals have to just because of a few intolerant bigots?

 

[lizskid]

I think it's more a problem of logistics. The current "don't ask, don't tell" policy has been very effective at allowing homosexuals serve without repercussion - and logistical solutions.

Are you aware that more gays and lesbians have been discharged from the service during "don't ask, don't tell" than before it was in place? Yeah, THAT'S working.

 

[standing_alone]

Wow, it's amazing how insecure people are. What makes straight people think that just because a gay person is in the shower room with them that they somehow see them as something sexual? This may disappoint you and all your dearly held prejudices you have, but gay people really don't give a damn about how you look naked. Heck, it's a damn good chance they don't even find you attractive in any way.

Now, not to have my position on this whole issue misunderstood, yes, I believe gays should be allowed to serve in the military without and repercussions just because of their sexuality (as I already stated before). Now do I think they should make it an issue in any way or even out themselves? No. The only thing I feel is that people shouldn't be kicked out of the military solely for being gay. If, however, it becomes a problem, then I can understand discipline or perhaps discharge. But there needs to be more of a reason than just "well, that person is gay."

Funny thing is, there are plenty of countries that allow homosexuals to openly serve in the military. I haven't heard about any emotional break downs of units there. Maybe they just make tougher soldiers over there.....

 

[yuvgotmel]

Moni_Gail, I think you misread what I actually posted, which was:

I do not know how to be clearer on this issue. Perhaps it is simply a matter of evolutionary rates, which vary in different people. Please remember that many of the service members (in all branches) come from low-income homes. Many come from very religious homes. Many come from remote locations within the U.S. or locations that are very sparsely populated. The military is an extreme culture shock. That is a fact. In group dynamics, even the smallest issues are major.

The highlighted portions is what seems to be in questions. Yet, what I wrote is true. Many of the service do come from low-income homes, very religious homes, and sparsely populated areas.

Those factors are very important, especially in understanding group dynamics.

It seems that people are perceiving me to be anti-homosexual. That is too bad. Because I'm not. I'm speaking of the military, not a utopian society. I'm speaking of what happens when "diversity" meets reality in cramped stressful conditions. Even racism is still a problem in some parts of the military--usually limited to various "commands" (meaning specific work locations).

Furthermore, ...just to throw more fuel in the mix, the only places that I can think of that are "similar" to the current military living/working conditions but that also allow open homosexuality are prisons (and also the historical accounts of the Spartan military). ........just food for thought.....

 

[Green Gaia]

Even racism is still a problem in some parts of the military--usually limited to various "commands" (meaning specific work locations).

Really? Are people on the receiving end of the racism kicked out of the military for being a racial minority?

 

[yuvgotmel]

To standing_alone and others,

Many of you seem to be upset at the wrong people, namely myself and a couple of others, who have been in the military, that have had the courage to speak about the facts of group dynamics. But that does not make us the "bad guy."

We are merely the messengers here....describing what we have witnessed firsthand.

You can continue to tell us directly or allude to us being "insecure" but that does not make us so. And, more importantly, it won't change the fact of what we (that have been in the military) have been telling you either.