Poll: Gays should be allowed to serve openly in the Military

[Green Gaia]

I think we should, but is the military the place for that? I mean there are lives on the line and that just seems the place to start, don't you think?

I'm suggesting that the military catch up with the attitude of the public. Check out the poll I link to in the OP.

 

[standing_alone]

I think we should, but is the military the place for that? I mean there are lives on the line and that just seems the place to start, don't you think?

The thing is, there are already homosexuals serving in the military. The only thing that would be different is that they would be able to openly acknowledge their sexual orientation without having to worry about whether or not there will be consequences.

 

[Green Gaia]

No one is suggesting that gays and lesbians in the military be forced out of the closet, just that there be no repercussions if they were comfortable to share their orientation.

 

[yuvgotmel]

As a Vet of the Navy, I would like to ask you all a question. During bootcamp (and other situations common to the military), personnel must OPENLY share shower and toilet accomodations (without privacy). How would that make you feel to be nude in front of the opposite sex (or a homosexual)?

It can be uncomfortable to be nude around persons of the opposite sex or anyone that you feel might be looking at you sexually. When I was in bootcamp, the Navy was phasing out same-sex companies. The company that I was in, was the last all-female company. In that company, there was a female who made many others feel very uncomfortable to be nude around, because others sensed that she was a lesbian. She was expelled from the Navy (after only a few weeks of bootcamp) after exposing that she was homosexual (or after she made advances on a female recruit). During that time, it did upset many of the females in the same company. [I kept to myself and didn't get involved though. So I don't know all the details.]

 

[YmirGF]

A gay man or woman can kill as effectively as any heterosexual.

 

[Katzpur]

If somebody is willing to put his life on the line for me, I don't care to whom he or she is sexually attracted.

 

[Green Gaia]

As a Vet of the Navy, I would like to ask you all a question. During bootcamp (and other situations common to the military), personnel must OPENLY share shower and toilet accomodations (without privacy). How would that make you feel to be nude in front of the opposite sex (or a homosexual)?

I don't like showering nude with anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation.

The company that I was in, was the last all-female company. In that company, there was a female who made many others feel very uncomfortable to be nude around, because others sensed that she was a lesbian. She was expelled from the Navy (after only a few weeks of bootcamp) after exposing that she was homosexual (or after she made advances on a female recruit). During that time, it did upset many of the females in the same company. [I kept to myself and didn't get involved though. So I don't know all the details.]

Would her behavior have been acceptable if she were making advances on a male recruit? What if it were a male officier making advances on a female recruit? Is that acceptable? From everything I know about the behavior policy of the military, both of those instances would have been unacceptable as well. So it seems it is the behavior of the person that should be judged and not their sexual orientation. That is unless one holds the antiquated opinion that all gays and lesbians are sexual predators.

 

[yuvgotmel]

I hate to sound like a staunch conservative on this issue, but having served in the military myself, I have witnessed that it is not whether or not a homosexual can do their job or not; rather the problem arises within the nature and dynamics of the group. There is plenty of testosterone to go around among both male and female members. The emphasis is most often placed upon the group’s ability to work together effectively.

However, I can attest to the fact that when a homosexual shares the same accommodations where nudity is involved (such as the shower and bathroom—without stalls), it can cause the group to become embarrassed and hostile towards the homosexual.

Nowadays, females are incorporated into co-ed bootcamps. Yet, showers, bathrooms and living quarters are kept separate. To allow open homosexuality in the military would be the equivalent of full co-ed accommodations in all areas.

Living quarters in the military is restricting enough, but it could cause even greater problems if personnel would feel ill-at-ease to simply undress and shower as usual. Tensions between personnel often rage to the point of physical fighting. In some of the more cramped conditions, in various parts of living/working conditions on ships and other in-the-field examples, fighting is routine among personnel. Like I said, the men and even the women are often highly-charged with enough emotions and hormones as it is.

Life in the military is no picnic.

 

[Green Gaia]

However, I can attest to the fact that when a homosexual shares the same accommodations where nudity is involved (such as the shower and bathroom—without stalls), it can cause the group to become embarrassed and hostile towards the homosexual.

Sounds like some in the group have issues, not the homosexual. Deal with the issues and homophobia and they're won't be a problem anymore.

To allow open homosexuality in the military would be the equivalent of full co-ed accommodations in all areas.

Then open heterosexuality shouldn't be allowed either. Don't dare mention your spouse, children, or what your family did last weekend.

 

[yuvgotmel]

Honestly, I’m confused on the method-of-thought that many of you are taking from my words. I’m speaking expressly on group dynamics. Controlling a group is much more difficult than controlling a single person. I’m speaking of facts, not sympathies.

My sympathy extends to homosexuals. However, the fact is that open homosexuality (in the military) causes problems, as I have witnessed myself.

Any sexual advances, even heterosexual ones, are forbidden. Yet, they happen as you can imagine, especially in a setting where hormones and emotions are raging.

It should be emphasized that military personnel live in extremely cramped conditions for weeks, months, and often over a year or more at a time. This can and does (on a routine and even daily basis) create many fights—even physical ones.

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

I understand what you're saying, but shouldn't we confront those stereotypes and overcome them down instead of hiding from them and letting them perpetuate?

Yes I completely agree. However timing is the most important factor in human change. I realize that your not thinking to just overnight have this happen, but it seems that people try to force drastic changes all of a sudden and send people reeling out of their seats. We are also at war and very little changes during a time of war. I would love to see complete equality. Unfortunately the mass' aren't ready to be told what to do yet.

 

[Green Gaia]

My sympathy extends to homosexuals. However, the fact is that open homosexuality (in the military) causes problems, as I have witnessed myself.

Who causes the problems, the homosexual or a person who has a problems with homosexuals? Change the attitude of the intolerant and there won't be a problem!

 

[Green Gaia]

Yes I completely agree. However timing is the most important factor in human change. I realize that your not thinking to just overnight have this happen, but it seems that people try to force drastic changes all of a sudden and send people reeling out of their seats. We are also at war and very little changes during a time of war. I would love to see complete equality. Unfortunately the mass' aren't ready to be told what to do yet.

Did you read the poll that prompted this thread? It's linked to in the OP. The public is ready for this and see this thread where I've provided an article and poll that says 73 percent of military members aren't bothered by lesbians and gays.

 

[Draka]

I hate to sound like a staunch conservative on this issue, but having served in the military myself, I have witnessed that it is not whether or not a homosexual can do their job or not; rather the problem arises within the nature and dynamics of the group. There is plenty of testosterone to go around among both male and female members. The emphasis is most often placed upon the group’s ability to work together effectively.

However, I can attest to the fact that when a homosexual shares the same accommodations where nudity is involved (such as the shower and bathroom—without stalls), it can cause the group to become embarrassed and hostile towards the homosexual.

Nowadays, females are incorporated into co-ed bootcamps. Yet, showers, bathrooms and living quarters are kept separate. To allow open homosexuality in the military would be the equivalent of full co-ed accommodations in all areas.

Living quarters in the military is restricting enough, but it could cause even greater problems if personnel would feel ill-at-ease to simply undress and shower as usual. Tensions between personnel often rage to the point of physical fighting. In some of the more cramped conditions, in various parts of living/working conditions on ships and other in-the-field examples, fighting is routine among personnel. Like I said, the men and even the women are often highly-charged with enough emotions and hormones as it is.

Life in the military is no picnic.

Agreed. The thing is, that until someone has been in the military athemselves they can't quite get the full picture of how it really is. It's all well and good to say how something should be ideally, but sometimes that just isn't how it is. Anyone who has paid any attention to my posts and opinions on equal rights and marriage rights and so on for homosexuals should realize that I am a staunch advocate for them, however I have also served several years in the Navy and know what real military life is all about and have a differing veiw when it comes to this. I don't think that homosexuals should be kept out of the military, but I do think it wise to keep their sexuality to themselves and not announce it. This is both for their own safety and for the cohesiveness of the unit. Some can say it is the military's problem to solve because it shouldn't be a problem, but then they wouldn't be taking into account all the different people that make up the military. I'm sorry, but you don't walk into a strict Southern Baptist church and say you want to join the congregation and then announce your gay. Well, don't you think there's probably some strict Southern Baptists in the military? There's all kinds of people who join the military to defend this country and not all share or have the same veiws. You can't forcibly change that...period.

And Maize, you yourself said you'd be uncomfortable just showering with other people. What about those who would feel uncomfortable showering with the opposite sex? To some knowing that they are showering with a homosexual would make them feel the same way. Close group dynamics are important in the military in order to function at it's best.

The overall answer may not be what you want to hear now, but it truly is best.

 

[Buttercup]

Honestly, I’m confused on the method-of-thought that many of you are taking from my words. I’m speaking expressly on group dynamics. Controlling a group is much more difficult than controlling a single person. I’m speaking of facts, not sympathies.

My sympathy extends to homosexuals. However, the fact is that open homosexuality (in the military) causes problems, as I have witnessed myself.

Any sexual advances, even heterosexual ones, are forbidden. Yet, they happen as you can imagine, especially in a setting where hormones and emotions are raging.

It should be emphasized that military personnel live in extremely cramped conditions for weeks, months, and often over a year or more at a time. This can and does (on a routine and even daily basis) create many fights—even physical ones.

I respect your thoughts, especially because you have lived the situation at hand and I can also understand your points because I have a son in the Navy, a husband who served in the Army and my father was a Navy man also...plus various other friends and relatives who served our country. And we've actually had this discussion throughout the years.

It has been my experience with gay men in particular (and I'm sure it's the same with gay women) that they don't "go after" straight men. And give the guys some credence that they aren't going to leer at anyone in the shower. If they do, they'll probably get some dirty looks and snide comments. Seems to me the proposed situation would take care of itself rather quickly. Personally, I don't think much would change if gays were allowed to serve openly. Some gays would still feel more comfortable keeping quiet about their orientation. Men serving in the military have a lot more to worry about than a gay man or woman seeing them naked. Besides, as Alyssa pointed out there are already gays in the military you might just not know who they are.

 

[yuvgotmel]

I do not know how to be clearer on this issue. Perhaps it is simply a matter of evolutionary rates, which vary in different people. Please remember that many of the service members (in all branches) come from low-income homes. Many come from very religious homes. Many come from remote locations within the U.S. or locations that are very sparsely populated. The military is an extreme culture shock. That is a fact. In group dynamics, even the smallest issues are major.

Homosexuality is not accepted among the wide-percentage of the population. When pressed into uncomfortable situations, such as the cramped conditions of the military living/working environment, every possible fear and hostility often can rage.

Even in the most seemingly benign and quiet of service members, when they are introduced to situations, such as life on a submarine (for months at a time submerged), can and do often “wig out.” In like manner, when enclosed in the conditions of life-in-the-field (such as the Marines and Army must live through during war and other peacetime activities), the personnel’s closeness (in living quarters) creates serious hostility.

 

[Green Gaia]

And Maize, you yourself said you'd be uncomfortable just showering with other people. What about those who would feel uncomfortable showering with the opposite sex? To some knowing that they are showering with a homosexual would make them feel the same way. Close group dynamics are important in the military in order to function at it's best.

So not knowing they are homosexuals and sharing with them anyway, is OK? What about the person's actions, gay or straight? Or are all homosexuals just assumed to jump on anyone who is naked? I said I was uncomfortable showering with others because I look awful, not because I think anyone is looking at me sexually, male or female.

I don't understand why gays and lesbians are forced to hide and lie about their families in order to serve in the military, while heterosexuals freely talk about theirs. Hell, we see them on the news every night hugging and kissing their families either coming home or leaving again. But if a lesbian officier slips up and mentions her girlfriend and child waiting for her back home, she's immediately dishonorably discharged and loses her job? How is that fair?

 

[Draka]

I respect your thoughts, especially because you have lived the situation at hand and I can also understand your points because I have a son in the Navy, a husband who served in the Army and my father was a Navy man also...plus various other friends and relatives who served our country. And we've actually had this discussion throughout the years.

It has been my experience with gay men in particular (and I'm sure it's the same with gay women) that they don't "go after" straight men. And give the guys some credence that they aren't going to leer at anyone in the shower. If they do, they'll probably get some dirty looks and snide comments. Seems to me the proposed situation would take care of itself rather quickly. Personally, I don't think much would change if gays were allowed to serve openly. Some gays would still feel more comfortable keeping quiet about their orientation. Men serving in the military have a lot more to worry about than a gay man or woman seeing them naked. Besides, as Alyssa pointed out there are already gays in the military you might just not know who they are.

Yes, and as some say, "ignorance is bliss". Of course there are gays in the military. There always have been. And most people know that gay people don't "go after" straight. That's not that point though. Ask yourself...if you were a lesbian, openly or not, would you be comfortable living in extremely close quarters with a large group of men? Turn things around.

I personally don't think that the human race needs all the dang labels and such that cause animosity. I'd kind of like to see us function as people did in that movie "Starship Troopers" where people were just people. But we're not there yet...no matter how much it would be ideal.

 

[Green Gaia]

Homosexuality is not accepted among the wide-percentage of the population. When pressed into uncomfortable situations, such as the cramped conditions of the military living/working environment, every possible fear and hostility often can rage.

Fear of what? Why be afraid of us?

No one is asking you to accept homosexuality. Just to not harass or beat homosexuals to death and to give them the same job opportunites you have and to be able to do it open and honestly.

 

[lizskid]

As a Vet of the Navy, I would like to ask you all a question. During bootcamp (and other situations common to the military), personnel must OPENLY share shower and toilet accomodations (without privacy). How would that make you feel to be nude in front of the opposite sex (or a homosexual)?

It can be uncomfortable to be nude around persons of the opposite sex or anyone that you feel might be looking at you sexually. When I was in bootcamp, the Navy was phasing out same-sex companies. The company that I was in, was the last all-female company. In that company, there was a female who made many others feel very uncomfortable to be nude around, because others sensed that she was a lesbian. She was expelled from the Navy (after only a few weeks of bootcamp) after exposing that she was homosexual (or after she made advances on a female recruit). During that time, it did upset many of the females in the same company. [I kept to myself and didn't get involved though. So I don't know all the details.]

This goes back to my conduct comments....she crossed the line by making people uncomfortable, if it was not just in their heads, and making advances on someone who was not wanting them. It's called fraternization and discouraged, but heterosexual couple get away with it all the time. It should be enforced. Consistently. Without bias.

Otherwise, group showers should be no big deal....not every gay or lesbian is looking to get turned on in every setting....just like gym class in school. Because they are there does not mean you are being seen as a sexual object.