Plants, Reincarnation, Soul, and Karma

[Vinayaka]

This sounds like a far too easy way to moksha. Just skip all the karma? Be a total jerk your whole life, but as long as 'Krishna' is on your lips at the time you die, and you get moksha?

Sounds way too much like 'I've been saved' so I can do anything I want syndrome.

Gandhi, of course was the opposite, living a pious life.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Okay, but then are we reincarnated into plants at some point since they are living? Because if we are not then why would god make them in the first place? And also if you see whenever humans expand and grow, it is at the expense of plants souls which could be reborn as humans. For example, if someone cut down a forest, you kills all the trees but if you built a hospital, if those souls were included int the cylce of Hindu reincarnation then they would be reborn as babies into the hospital. Thus wouldn't that mean they have souls as to to speak a human who did wrong during his life could be reborn as a plant? And you also did not answer whether you thought plants have free will. Do you think they do? What do they decide freely. Most of what they do Is governed by their surroundings and scientifically proven to be reactions. So do they? I still think they do, but I will share my reasoning later on....

Hmm, i never heard this (Plants to human thing), can you provide Mantras from the scriptures that mention this.

And their correct translations please.

 

[Jainarayan]

Interesting, but by what mechanism? How's that work?
Do other god's names work, as well?
Gandhi, for example, called out to Ram at the moment of his death.

Truly, I don't know. Again, it's one of those things I picked up somewhere, and it just stuck in my head. Another thing I picked up that stuck is that if you die in Varanasi, it's instant moksha. Maybe these are folk-tales... who knows? I'm sure no one has ever reported back on their veracity.

 

[Jainarayan]

This sounds like a far too easy way to moksha. Just skip all the karma? Be a total jerk your whole life, but as long as 'Krishna' is on your lips at the time you die, and you get moksha?

Sounds way too much like 'I've been saved' so I can do anything I want syndrome.

Gandhi, of course was the opposite, living a pious life.

I think there has to be some effort on the part of the dying person to have shown bhakti during his or her life.

Bhagavad Gita 9.30

"Even a confirmed sinner, if he worships Me with unwavering faith and devotion, must verily be considered as righteous; for he has indeed taken the right resolve." (Swami Tapasyananda translation).

"Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination." (Srila Prabhupada translation).

Regarding Lord's mercy

Vadakalai View Some positive gesture is necessary on the part of the jeevatma to deserve the grace of God, because He can be deemed partial if He grants Moksha to all both deserving and undeserving.

Thenkalai View Lord's grace is spontaneous. He grants Moksha to anyone who accepts Him alone as the means to attain it and has the ripened desire to attain it.

Vishishtadvaita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Do plants have a soul? Do they have free will? We will start off there and then continue with my arguments as to why or why not. :shout

Few years ago I read the Yoga Vasistha I seem to remember in one of the stories, it was tracing somebody's past lives and plants were part of them. The stories point was who are you.

 

[atanu]

Hmm, i never heard this (Plants to human thing), can you provide Mantras from the scriptures that mention this.

And their correct translations please.

Yes. Regression to Lower Forms, including to inanimate forms, is taught in upanishads and Gita. Such stories (?) are also recorded in purAna an itIhAsa.

Q. Is it possible for a man to be reborn as a lower animal?
A. Yes. It is possible, as illustrated by Jada Bharata--the scriptural anecdote of a royal sage having been reborn as deer.
Ramana Maharshi, 196-197

Upanishads talk of three paths of re-incarnation and the third way leads to life of insects etc..

Gita teaches as below:

14:14 If the embodied soul meets with death when sattva prevails, it goes to the spotless realms of those who know the Highest.

14:15 If the embodied soul meets with death when rajas prevails, it is born among those who are attached to action; and if it meets with death when tamas prevails, it is born in the wombs of creatures devoid of reason.

Gita also teaches that whatever one contemplates on during the last moments that form one acquires.

What do you mean? Kindly read Brihadaraynaka or Katha Upanishad.

 

[atanu]

This sounds like a far too easy way to moksha. Just skip all the karma? Be a total jerk your whole life, but as long as 'Krishna' is on your lips at the time you die, and you get moksha?

Sounds way too much like 'I've been saved' so I can do anything I want syndrome.

Gandhi, of course was the opposite, living a pious life.

Vinayaka

IMO, it does not work that way. One would have acquired a ton of sacred karma before one can die that way. One has to have acquired a ton of good karma before one can truly surrender or one can truly travel the path of Jnana.

No one is wishing away the karma.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

What do you mean? Kindly read Brihadaraynaka or Katha Upanishad.

Sorry, i don't have the Upanishads with me now, can you please remind me of which portion of the Brhamana or Arayanaka are these Upanishads explanations of.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Interesting, but by what mechanism? How's that work?
Do other god's names work, as well?
Gandhi, for example, called out to Ram at the moment of his death.

Whatever we are used to thinking of most of our lives, it is that, which will come to our minds, when we die.

This is what the story of Jada Bharat teaches us...not to be attached to anything but the Supreme Lord. That is the reason one is advised to practice remembering God at all times.

All names of God work. It is said that God has invested all His energies in His Holy Names. Whichever God you have an attachment for, you can chant the name of that God - Ram, Krishna, Narsingha, Narayan etc.

 

[ratikala]

dear vinayaka ,

This sounds like a far too easy way to moksha. Just skip all the karma? Be a total jerk your whole life, but as long as 'Krishna' is on your lips at the time you die, and you get moksha?

Sounds way too much like 'I've been saved' so I can do anything I want syndrome.

Gandhi, of course was the opposite, living a pious life.

not so easy my freind , not so easy !

as living beings its hard to contemplate the point of death , but unless we have learnt to focus the mind during life , how will we focus the mind at the point of death ?
how will we be focused enough to remember to chant the lords names ?

gandhi ji is the most perfect example as his death came suddenly , upon realizing the situation he instinctively cried out to lord rama , as a child automaticaly cries out to its mother .....we instinctively cry out to our nearest , our dearest , the one who we rely upon the most , in times of need our cries come from the heart and if through our lives we have developed a true love of god we will automaticaly call his name .

if god is not often in our thoughts , and our minds are possesed by worldly concerns then we will not think of god just because we are dieing , we will be troubled by the thought of sepperation from this life and god will be far from our minds .

 

[atanu]

Sorry, i don't have the Upanishads with me now, can you please remind me of which portion of the Brhamana or Arayanaka are these Upanishads explanations of.

I am sorry that I do not know. IMO, I do not need to know what portion of arayanaka, the brihadarayanaka upanishad is exapalanation of to read and contemplate on the upanishad itself.

Brihadaraynaka Upanishad

VI-ii-16: While those who conquer the worlds through sacrifices, charity and austerity, reach the deity of smoke, from him the deity of the night, from him the deity of the fortnight in which the moon wanes, from him the deities of the six months in which the sun travels southward, from them the deity of the world of the manes, and from him the moon. Reaching the moon they become food. There the gods enjoy them as the priests drink the shining Soma juice (gradually, saying, as it were), ‘Flourish, dwindle’. And when their past work is exhausted, they reach (become like) this ether, from the ether air, from air rain, and from rain the earth. Reaching the earth they become food. Then they are again offered in the fire of man, thence in the fire of woman, whence they are born (and perform rites) with a view to going to other worlds. Thus do they rotate. While those others who do not know these two ways become insects and moths, and these frequently biting things (gnats and mosquitoes).​

 

[Shântoham]

I think there has to be some effort on the part of the dying person to have shown bhakti during his or her life.

Bhagavad Gita 9.30

"Even a confirmed sinner, if he worships Me with unwavering faith and devotion, must verily be considered as righteous; for he has indeed taken the right resolve." (Swami Tapasyananda translation).

"Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination." (Srila Prabhupada translation).

Śrīgurubhyo namaḥ

TBTL

To properly understand the verse you mentioned (Bhagavad-Gītā 9.30) we need to consider the successive verse (Bhagavad-Gītā 9.31). These two verses should never be taken out of contest and they should never be used to justify adharmic behavior.

api cet sudurācāro
bhajate māmananyabhāk |
sādhureva sa mantavyaḥ
samyagvyavasito hi saḥ ||

kṣipraṃ bhavati dharmātmā
śaśvacchāntiṃ nigacchati |
kaunteya pratijānīhi
na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati ||

In BG 9.30, Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: api cet — even if. He is speaking hypothetically. Even if there is such a person. In fact, Śrī Kṛṣṇa in the seventh chapter says that the evil-doers do not attain Him (Bhagavad-Gītā 7.15).
Nevertheless, if such a person exist, he can be considered a sādhu – sādhuḥ eva sa mantavyaḥ – due to his proper resolution – samyag-vyavasitaḥ saḥ.
In BG 9.31, Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: kṣipraṃ — soon. Soon after what? Soon after he shed his bad conduct due to his proper resolution.
Due to samyak vyavasitaḥ — proper resolution – he goes from sudurācāraḥ — one committing the most abominable actions – to dharmātmā — one whose mind is in conformity with dharma – in order to obtain śaśvat-śāntim — lasting peace.
Even though he has been always evil-minded, he, through proper understanding (Bhagavad-Gītā 4.36), soon becomes one whose mind is in conformity with dharma. The idea is that he gives up his bad conduct and takes to good conduct.
In other words, the fire of sincere repentance burns all sins. There can be no peace for an unrepentant sinner.
We can find this concept in every tradition. The Koran says: Those who believe in Allah, and do right action, He will forgive their evil deeds (Surah 64.09). The Bible says: Everyone who believes in Him shall have eternal life (John 3.15). The Mahābhārata says: Acts of austerity, service, and charity done without any selfish motive can atone sinful acts, as darkness vanishes after sunrise (MB 3.207.57).
Yogānanda used to say: A saint is the sinner who never gave up. Every saint had a past, and every sinner has a future.
If one keeps his or her mind focused on Bhagavān, there will be no room for the sinful desires to mature, and a sinful person soon becomes righteous as mentioned above.

Tat Sat Brahmārpaṇamastu​

 

[Jainarayan]

Śrīgurubhyo namaḥ

...they should never be used to justify adharmic behavior.

...

Yogānanda used to say: A saint is the sinner who never gave up. Every saint had a past, and every sinner has a future.
If one keeps his or her mind focused on Bhagavān, there will be no room for the sinful desires to mature, and a sinful person soon becomes righteous as mentioned above.

You expanded on it beautifully. I should have gone on to explain that in my estimation, if one is properly devoted to God, he cannot possibly commit sin deliberately. I think the sin referred to would be out of ignorance or accident, or something other than deliberate. To keep committing sin and expecting to be forgiven and redeemed is called "presumption of God's mercy" in the Catholic tradition.

There's also a saying in the Eastern Orthodox Church: "The worst sinners think of themselves as the greatest saints, but the greatest saints think of themselves as the worst sinners".

:namaste

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Very important to remember Sri Krishna and chant His names at time of death. I believe it results in instant moksha.

Yes, repeating your mantra at the time of death is seen as very auspicious.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, repeating your mantra at the time of death is seen as very auspicious.

Now that makes sense. There's a huge difference between 'very auspicious' and instant moksha. Of course we are all guaranteed moksha at some point, but right then? I have my doubts.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Now that makes sense. There's a huge difference between 'very auspicious' and instant moksha. Of course we are all guaranteed moksha at some point, but right then? I have my doubts.

Well, I am kinda simple, to me it seems like why have a goal after you die. I would like to be as free as possible in this life.

 

[Jainarayan]

Now that makes sense. There's a huge difference between 'very auspicious' and instant moksha. Of course we are all guaranteed moksha at some point, but right then? I have my doubts.

As I said a couple of times, it's something I picked up somewhere and it stuck in my head. If it's true, it's true; if it's not true, it's not true. It's not a big deal.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's okay. There is a lot of exaggeration to express auspiciousness. You should hear what they say about bathing in the Ganga, compounded by it being at a Kumbh Mela. It's the end all! Lots of times things have comparisons like ... its worth a thousand lifetimes etc. .... I just take it all with a grain of salt. So too with the claiming of avatar by followers of Gurus. Or the additional Sri's in front of somebody's name.

Something like Sri la Sri la Sri Mahaguru Mahaswami Mega-avatar MegaSatchiefaguru Master-of-all
Ananda.

Hindus kinda like to exaggerate sometimes.

 

[Jainarayan]

I just take it all with a grain of salt. So too with the claiming of avatar by followers of Gurus. Or the additional Sri's in front of somebody's name.

Yeah, I hear you. I got a new one ripped on me at another site, by someone who apparently follows me, for saying pretty much the same thing you did about gurus and avatars. Except that I used the "J-bomb".

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

atanu;2920327]I am sorry that I do not know. IMO, I do not need to know what portion of arayanaka, the brihadarayanaka upanishad is exapalanation of to read and contemplate on the upanishad itself.

Sorry i was not being rude or anything, i just cant remember reading about it.

I think we need to know what the Upanishads are explaning, otherwise our understanding may be incorrect. But that is my POV.