Perfectionism

[Audie]

It depends on what we mean with religion. I think religion is human belief system that is represented by people. And therefore, whatever the religious people do in the name of their religion, is also done by the religion, unless it is actually against the teachings of the religion. It can be hypocritical, if it for example says that don’t do as I do, but as I say.



I think Bible is book of people who got the same message.



I think it is possible for me to be mistaken. But before I can accept that I am mistaken, I need proof for that.



I would think that is not the speech of intelligent and educated person. To me it would show great ignorance and I would ask, why do they think so, why they think Noah’s ark is an insane idea.

Yeah, never mind definitions for religions.

To say those who wrote the bible got the same
message is kind of weird, but maybe that drifts
off into 'what is a message" and, "what is the
same".

In any event I was not referring to the bible, but
to all the people of, say, today who get "messages
from whatever "god", and they all get something
different. I thought you knew what I meant.
Anyway, that is what I meant.

All those messages, and they sure cant all be real.
How did you get lucky, if I may ask?

Not clear who you are saying is ignorant, uneducated
and unintelligent, but that hardly matters.

For clarity though-are you saying here that
in your oinion, Noah's ark is a real story,
it all happened as written, the
entire world went under water, animals in
a boat and so on?

 

[1213]

...

All those messages, and they sure cant all be real.
How did you get lucky, if I may ask?

I think truth is available for everyone, no need to get lucky on that.

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

For clarity though-are you saying here that
in your oinion, Noah's ark is a real story,
it all happened as written, the
entire world went under water, animals in
a boat and so on?

Yes, I believe things went as the Bible tells it. (And by the way, it was an ark, not a boat, if we are literal).

 

[Audie]

I think truth is available for everyone, no need to get lucky on that.

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21



Yes, I believe things went as the Bible tells it. (And by the way, it was an ark, not a boat, if we are literal).

Given that everyone who reads the bible
seems to think it says something a bit different,
to say you believe what it says is actually you
believing yourself, but never mind that.

You said a prrson who says the story is phony
is ignorant / uneducated, when in fact it is
someone who thinks it realky happened is
profoundly ignorant.

That you would accept being wrong if proven
wrong sounds good in theory but in practice
it is impossible for you.

 

[1213]

...
That you would accept being wrong if proven
wrong sounds good in theory but in practice
it is impossible for you.

And how do you know that?

 

[Audie]

And how do you know that?

No claim of absolute knowledge

Lets approach it this way- you believe in
your interpretation of what you believe is
God's word, is this not so?

And, further, you believe that it is God's
word that there was a world wide flood, only
Noah et all survived, etc. Correct?

Do you absolutely, no-matter-what believe in
God? Or could you be mistaken, oops, haha,
god is a myth?

Faced with evidence as undeniable as that
a flattened rabbit on the highway is dead,
is it possible for you to accept it that there
was no flood?

 

[1213]

Lets approach it this way- you believe in your interpretation of what you believe is God's word, is this not so?

What do you mean with “God’s word”? I believe Bible is written by people. And I believe God has guided people to write the Bible. And Bible speaks accurately and also tells what God has said. I think people are too evil and non-wise to make it without God. There really is no need for interpretations, Bible explains itself and there is no need to make interpretations.

And, further, you believe that it is God's word that there was a world wide flood, only Noah et all survived, etc. Correct?

I believe Bible tells correctly about the great flood. And one reason is: things that can be found from nature support the story.

Do you absolutely, no-matter-what believe in God? Or could you be mistaken, oops, haha, god is a myth?

I think people are too evil and stupid to invent Bible God. So, it would be really difficult to believe in the myth theory. That would require too much belief from me and I think it would require that I become irrational, which I try to avoid, because I don’t like to be irrational.

Faced with evidence as undeniable as that a flattened rabbit on the highway is dead, is it possible for you to accept it that there was no flood?

It would be as possible as to accept that you or nothing else really exists. But, maybe you can prove nothing really exists, there is no gas and oil fields, no marine fossils on high mountains, no orogenic mountains or anything else that is evidence for the great flood?

 

[Audie]

It would be as possible as to accept that you or nothing else really exists. But, maybe you can prove nothing really exists, there is no gas and oil fields, no marine fossils on high mountains, no orogenic mountains or anything else that is evidence for the great flood?

You certainly have made one thing clear!

That you would accept being wrong if proven
wrong sounds good in theory but in practice
it is impossible for you.

As for "evidence of a great flood", well, as you yourself
do not know any geology, you have gone to some
creositte run by stupid and evil people whose
purpose is to deceive earnest persons such as
yourself.

I could spend much time trying to show you the
shabby fraud they peddle, or point to the polar
ice that has been there since long long before
your "flood", as proof that no flood occurred.

I guess I wont though, as I am confident that
no effort on my part would ever defeat the
"impossible in practice."

Too bad, really. Educated people do not have
to believe lies in order to have faith in God.


AND, if your god is really-really there, he may not
be delighted that you believe and spread such
calumny about him as that he did such a horrendous
thing as the "flood".

Its your deal, though.

 

[Thief]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.



Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |



The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

I knee jerked.....is it not written?
Be thou perfect.....as your Father in heaven is perfect

so...are we really attempting a definition we can all fit?

or attempting a definition dealt by heaven?

 

[1213]

....
I guess I wont though, as I am confident that
no effort on my part would ever defeat the
"impossible in practice."...

Reality and truth can’t be proven wrong. And I know you can’t prove Bible wrong.

But, if you think the flood was wrong, are you also against abortion and euthanasia, or are you a hypocrite?

 

[ChristineM]

Reality and truth can’t be proven wrong. And I know you can’t prove Bible wrong.

The bible is proven wrong on several counts, flood,as described in the bible is one of those counts.

Sure you believe it happend, that is called faith, not fact.

But, if you think the flood was wrong, are you also against abortion and euthanasia, or are you a hypocrite?

What?
Can you please provide some logic to this statement?
As it stands it just doesnt make sense
As well as the fact you are imposing your judgement about someone who you know nothing about.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Reality and truth can’t be proven wrong. And I know you can’t prove Bible wrong.

But, if you think the flood was wrong, are you also against abortion and euthanasia, or are you a hypocrite?

There is no evidence that supports the existence of a global flood. If you apply what is known about physics, it would be impossible for such a flood to occur as it is described in the Bible.

What do the moving goal posts of abortion and euthanasia have to do in supporting or rejecting a global flood.

I am convinced of her evidence that you may recognize a hypothetical possibility of accepting you could be wrong, but do not follow a practical version of that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Reality and truth can’t be proven wrong. And I know you can’t prove Bible wrong.

But, if you think the flood was wrong, are you also against abortion and euthanasia, or are you a hypocrite?

Bringing up abortion and euthanasia also qualify as straw man arguments.

 

[Audie]

The bible is proven wrong on several counts, flood,as described in the bible is one of those counts.

Sure you believe it happend, that is called faith, not fact.




What?
Can you please provide some logic to this statement?
As it stands it just doesnt make sense
As well as the fact you are imposing your judgement about someone who you know nothing about.

You are more than welcome to take it from here.
My last act with this was to copy / paste that strange
response to a friend in China. The two-part thing on
what is impossible is what she would like.

 

[Audie]

Bringing up abortion and euthanasia also qualify as straw man arguments.

I am not sure they even know about those out there where
that came from.

 

[Nakosis]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.



Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |



The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

Who says you are not perfect?

I see this a saying accept one's own perfection. I see people perfect as they are. Folks are what they are and that's fine. people see other's as needing to be something other that what they are. That to me is the problem. We judge imperfection. So, stop judging the imperfection of creation.

If you believe in God, I would think the idea is to assume God know what they are doing. Who are you to judge God's creation as imperfect? Things are as they should be, even you. Stop passing judgement based on your own idea of what perfection should be.

 

[ChristineM]

You are more than welcome to take it from here.
My last act with this was to copy / paste that strange
response to a friend in China. The two-part thing on
what is impossible is what she would like.

No thanks, all yours ,-). His odd question linking mythology with hard facts attracted my attention for a moment only

 

[Audie]

No thanks, all yours ,-). His odd question linking mythology with hard facts attracted my attention for a moment only

Ha. I did not think that would work. I will leave him
to whoever wants it.

 

[ChristineM]

Ha. I did not think that would work. I will leave him
to whoever wants it.

No point in banging your head against a wall. I have "chatted" with true fundies before, its a total waste of time.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Perfection is one of those superfluous terms that really doesn't mean anything.

You could attach it to anything. Like perfect imperfection.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am not sure they even know about those out there where
that came from.

Agreed. Repeating the party line does not require that you know or understand what that line contains.