Perfectionism

[Samantha Rinne]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |

Here are some examples of people that were used for the greatness of HIS glory.

• Abraham -Was old.
• Elijah – Was suicidal.
• Joseph – Was abused.
• Job – Went bankrupt.
• Moses – Had a speech problem.
• Gideon – Was afraid.
• Samson – Was a womanizer.
• Rahab – Was a prostitute.
• Samaritan Woman – Divorced.
• Noah – Was a Drunk.
• Jeremiah – Was young.
• Jacob – Was a cheater.
• David – Was a murderer.
• Jonah – Ran from God.
• Naomi – Was a widow.
• Peter – Denied Christ three times
• Martha – Worried about everything.
• Zacchaeus – Was small and money hungry.
• The Disciples – Fell asleep while praying.
• Paul – A Pharisee who persecuted Christians before becoming one.

The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

 

[whirlingmerc]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.



Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |



The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

If you begin by grace you should continue walking in grace
as long as a believer lives there is a struggle and war in each person where they close the pleasures of God over the pleasures of sin

In glory there is perfection. but here and now there grace and a life
of dependency on God for help

 

[Audie]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.



Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |



The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

Why do you claim "so many...perfect"?

Do you have an example?

Does seeking to improve yourself
call on you first to take a slap at
someonevelse?

 

[joe1776]

The stereotypical Christian is sanctimonious (My morals are superior to your morals!).

The stereotypical Atheist is arrogant (I'm smarter than you are!)

I think both stereotypes are accurate for about 10% of their groups. But both these negative stereotypes are unfair when applied to the entire group.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect?

Your premise is a false assumption. I don't expect perfection. I just expect them to not be hypocrites.

I respect your right to believe as you will, but please don't beat me over the head with your Bible and then act in the contrary to what it teaches by berating and condemning me for not believing as you do.

I can't begin to tell you how many times, even on this very forum, that someone proselytizes to me and then spews profanities that even make me wince for refuting what they say.

 

[1213]

...
In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.

Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?...

In this I think it is necessary to understand what evil is. Evil is like emptiness, or darkness. It is really nothing, it is what remains when good is not present. So, to create evil, it means that the “light is turned off." God creates evil by allowing people to be without Him. Without good, all evil things become possible and evil is the lack of good. And it is what people wanted to know, which is why we are on this first death to learn what it truly means. But still, God is good and perfect.

 

[metis]

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

And this is all the reason for a Christian to go to confession for the repentance of sins.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Why do you claim "so many...perfect"?

Do you have an example?

Does seeking to improve yourself
call on you first to take a slap at
someonevelse?

Well, I was in a PM, talking to someone, trying for two pages to convince her that no, contrary to what some Bible teachers may tell you, the actual point of it all is that all have fallen short, all are flawed. Alot of this thread wound up being me getting my explanation taken as an admissiob of guilt. I think she mostly wanted to vent, and I was fine with that, but eventually she said go away or I'll report you, and I called her out on her own flaws.

Which is the point, part of not being perfect means stuff like losing your cool and not being a paragon of loving yourself and your opposites. Another flaw is letting yourself dwell on it a day later.

The point, which never sank in, was that everyone in church and out of it, has darkness. The people who try to be perfectly good are often the worst about it. My priest is a hypocrite, like me, except she's liberal. My fellow church members have issues of their own of various sorts. But I've heard two or three ex-Christians (including a friend) say exactly this, that they left the church because everyone seemed so broken. Yeah, that's the point. If we were all supposed to be law-abiding we'd probably be in a synagogue following 613 laws, and a dietary code.

 

[Audie]

Well, I was in a PM, talking to someone, trying for two pages to convince her that no, contrary to what some Bible teachers may tell you, the actual point of it all is that all have fallen short, all are flawed. Alot of this thread wound up being me getting my explanation taken as an admissiob of guilt. I think she mostly wanted to vent, and I was fine with that, but eventually she said go away or I'll report you, and I called her out on her own flaws.

Which is the point, part of not being perfect means stuff like losing your cool and not being a paragon of loving yourself and your opposites. Another flaw is letting yourself dwell on it a day later.

The point, which never sank in, was that everyone in church and out of it, has darkness. The people who try to be perfectly good are often the worst about it. My priest is a hypocrite, like me, except she's liberal. My fellow church members have issues of their own of various sorts. But I've heard two or three ex-Christians (including a friend) say exactly this, that they left the church because everyone seemed so broken. Yeah, that's the point. If we were all supposed to be law-abiding we'd probably be in a synagogue following 613 laws, and a dietary code.

Of course nobody is perfect. It is impossible.
Everyone really ought to know that.

Some people make a better effort at being
good people than others-another well known fact.

But to your response to my questions-

Ok, so, one person venting. And nothing about
expecting you or anyone else to be perfect.

Not ".....many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect" -which is an entirely different matter.

I doubt anyone "expects Christians to be perfect"

It would be well for you to clarify your actual
meaning in this matter.

I still do not know why any of this calls on
you to take a slap at other people especially
for something that did not happen.

 

[Audie]

In this I think it is necessary to understand what evil is. Evil is like emptiness, or darkness. It is really nothing, it is what remains when good is not present. So, to create evil, it means that the “light is turned off." God creates evil by allowing people to be without Him. Without good, all evil things become possible and evil is the lack of good. And it is what people wanted to know, which is why we are on this first death to learn what it truly means. But still, God is good and perfect.

Well, I reckons I'd still be a terrif., if not perfect
parent, if I allowed my kids (should I have any)
to be and do evil. In fact, invent evil just sos
they could learn a big lesson.

Any idea why it is so hard to win people to that
kind of "god", in China?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Of course nobody is perfect. It is impossible.
Everyone really ought to know that.

Some people make a better effort at being
good people than others-another well known fact.

But to your response to my questions-

Ok, so, one person venting. And nothing about
expecting you or anyone else to be perfect.

Not ".....many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect" -which is an entirely different matter.

I doubt anyone "expects Christians to be perfect"

It would be well for you to clarify your actual
meaning in this matter.

I still do not know why any of this calls on
you to take a slap at other people especially
for something that did not happen.

It doesn't. That's kinda the point. My biggest flaw is the natural consequences of perfectionism. The "why don't you measure up to my standards" neurosis, combined with beating myself up as well.

This is what I believe Jesus actually died over, besides the whole sins thing. Cuz he couldn't get a grip and tell the Pharisees, "Of course! You're doing exactly what God wants." Nope, he was like " Woe unto you! "

 

[Audie]

It doesn't. That's kinda the point. My biggest flaw is the natural consequences of perfectionism. The "why don't you measure up to my standards" neurosis, combined with beating myself up as well.

This is what I believe Jesus actually died over, besides the whole sins thing. Cuz he couldn't get a grip and tell the Pharisees, "Of course! You're doing exactly what God wants." Nope, he was like " Woe unto you! "

Ok... and my point has to do with this slam.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves.

If it is really about one person, who did not even do
this, then why did you say it, if iis not necessary to your
point why say it? Since it is not true, why say it? Colour me confused.

Side note, a thing I grew up with was that no
way possibly, ever, was I going to be good enough
for my Mom. Happens with a lot of us.
It is better than being held to no standards
is it not?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

If it is really about one person, who did not even do
this, then why did you say it, if iis not necessary to your
point why say it? Since it is not true, why say it? Colour me confused.

It's not really one person. It's happened a few times actually, and as I said in the next sentence, it happens to the church too.

And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

That's what I meant. It's just that was a sort of straw breaking camel's back moment.

And as someone who grew up in the church, I can tell you for certain that unfortunately many Christians grow up with this mentality. "I need to be good enough, so I'll get into Heaven." It's usually why they leave. The church doesn't do a good job teaching people about grace, so people wind up burning out trying to measure up. And not just that. If they don't burn out, they tend to become jerks that sorta try too hard to hide their flaws. We've all seen this before, with politicians. Pretending to have a spotless moral character, even to the point of sweeping all skeletons under a rug. And what lengths do you have to go to in order to appear perfect? Well, blackmail has pretty high odds in ending in murder for the blackmailer, so yeah.

When I was writing this yesterday, I was watching a movie called Christian Mingle. In case you've never seen it:

A marginally Christian (i.e. she believes in God, but hasn't really attended church since childhood and is hilarious awkward) woman is deeply tired of meeting men who kinda are half-interested only to go after people superficially prettier and/or more shallow. She works in sales and her employer is a goof who wears a funny captain hat, and wants the hair growth product they are supposed to sell to work cuz he's balding. But she kinda doesn't believe in what she's selling (this is called an analogy). At the same time, she decides to claim that she's a Christian to get a date with some hot guy. She meets the family and is asked to pray, and she dresses all super-formal and gives REAAAALLY long prayers for dinners and such. Eventually, she gets outed, but realizes that she still sorta believes the stuff after helping rebuild a church in Mexico (complete with the bells) has in fact made an impression. She goes to a <<Everybody Welcome>> storefront church. And they mean it, and it's sorta super-casual jeans and baggy shirt type deal, but she really likes it. And since she still likes the guy, she confronts him with her new half-baked religion and kinda tells him that the other girl and all her coat and tie parents aren't really right for him (marry me instead, basically). He tells her to get lost. She kinda reads some more Bible and tries to get back on her feet with her sales job, then she gets a letter from one of the girls in Mexico she helped and drops by only to find her guy much more casually dressed. Things end kinda the right way from there.

This movie and the event made me basically ask, why do people spend so much damned energy posing? To paraphrase Avril Lavigne's "Complicated", why can't we have more of this sort of Christianity?

 

[Audie]

Ah so desu ka.

Got it.
You meant "why do Christians expect
perfection...." . Not "non Christians".

Why?

Who knows...
Not me, I am no Christian.
Human nature? A bit of preachin'
and shoutin' wont change that!

I dont expect the impossible,
I am with you on that.

But I dunno why you brought unbelievers
into talk about hypocrties in church.

Never mind; we're the last ones to figure
Church goin' will perfect anyone.

Though we, like you, dont care for a lot
of high talk and low action!

Do we have all this straight now?

 

[1213]

... In fact, invent evil ...

I don’t think evil was or needed to be invented. Similarly, as it is not necessary to invent emptiness. Evilness is lack of good, it is nothing and it is what remains when good is not present. People wanted to know evil and that is why I think we are in this first death, where we can learn what it means to be without God (all good). Luckily this is only a short lesson and those who are righteous have opportunity to get eternal life.

Any idea why it is so hard to win people to that
kind of "god", in China?

I don’t know is it hard. I can understand if it is hard to find support for hypocrite religions. But if they would learn directly the message in the Bible, I believe many common men would really accept it and appreciate truth and love. But perhaps I am wrong. After all, also Bible tells that not many will accept the truth.

 

[Audie]

I don’t think evil was or needed to be invented. Similarly, as it is not necessary to invent emptiness. Evilness is lack of good, it is nothing and it is what remains when good is not present. People wanted to know evil and that is why I think we are in this first death, where we can learn what it means to be without God (all good). Luckily this is only a short lesson and those who are righteous have opportunity to get eternal life.



I don’t know is it hard. I can understand if it is hard to find support for hypocrite religions. But if they would learn directly the message in the Bible, I believe many common men would really accept it and appreciate truth and love. But perhaps I am wrong. After all, also Bible tells that not many will accept the truth.

I know that this is a common Christian
view of things. I've heard it all many times.

I suppose you heard it over and over from an early
age, and finally internalized it. No point in me
disagreeing with your definitions, as you got it
from god, and know you are right.

As for what is hard, or easy, a religion cannot
be hypocritical. Religions do not do anything.,

As for leaning direct from god, well, that is flat
out ridiculous.

IF people who earnestly sought "god" until they
got communication going all got even remotely close
to the same message, I might think there was
something real going on.

Does the bible mention the possibility that you
might not have "truth" going for you, or are you
just so incredibly lucky that it is impossible for you
to be mistaken?

Easy or hard-

If you go to China, especially among educated
people and tell them things like that Noah's
Ark is a real story, they may chat just as a chance
to practice their English. But they will think you
are as insane as if you told them your turtle can
fly.

 

[ChristineM]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.



Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |



The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

No one expects perfection, just not hypocrisy

 

[ChristineM]

Well, I was in a PM, talking to someone, trying for two pages to convince her that no, contrary to what some Bible teachers may tell you, the actual point of it all is that all have fallen short, all are flawed. Alot of this thread wound up being me getting my explanation taken as an admissiob of guilt. I think she mostly wanted to vent, and I was fine with that, but eventually she said go away or I'll report you, and I called her out on her own flaws.

Which is the point, part of not being perfect means stuff like losing your cool and not being a paragon of loving yourself and your opposites. Another flaw is letting yourself dwell on it a day later.

The point, which never sank in, was that everyone in church and out of it, has darkness. The people who try to be perfectly good are often the worst about it. My priest is a hypocrite, like me, except she's liberal. My fellow church members have issues of their own of various sorts. But I've heard two or three ex-Christians (including a friend) say exactly this, that they left the church because everyone seemed so broken. Yeah, that's the point. If we were all supposed to be law-abiding we'd probably be in a synagogue following 613 laws, and a dietary code.

Yes it sank in that you abused my life and my friends. In fact you were the epitome of what i expect of a christian, you confirmed my belief in christian hypocrisy, thank you

 

[Audie]

Yes it sank in that you abused my life and my friends. In fact you were the epitome of what i expect of a christian, you confirmed my belief in christian hypocrisy, thank you

I must be a slow sinker, I dont get it.

 

[1213]

As for what is hard, or easy, a religion cannot be hypocritical. Religions do not do anything.,

It depends on what we mean with religion. I think religion is human belief system that is represented by people. And therefore, whatever the religious people do in the name of their religion, is also done by the religion, unless it is actually against the teachings of the religion. It can be hypocritical, if it for example says that don’t do as I do, but as I say.

IF people who earnestly sought "god" until they got communication going all got even remotely close to the same message, I might think there was something real going on.

I think Bible is book of people who got the same message.

Does the bible mention the possibility that you might not have "truth" going for you, or are you just so incredibly lucky that it is impossible for you to be mistaken?

I think it is possible for me to be mistaken. But before I can accept that I am mistaken, I need proof for that.

If you go to China, especially among educated people and tell them things like that Noah's Ark is a real story, they may chat just as a chance to practice their English. But they will think you are as insane as if you told them your turtle can fly.

I would think that is not the speech of intelligent and educated person. To me it would show great ignorance and I would ask, why do they think so, why they think Noah’s ark is an insane idea.

Also, perhaps I could show flying turtle for them, if that is required.