Perfectionism

[Dan From Smithville]

I guess it goes here? Feel free to move it.

Why do so many non-Christians expect Christians to be perfect? They themselves aren't perfect, or they're lying to themselves. And why do so many Christians get sucked into this mindset?

Yes, yes, Matthew 5:48. But read the cross-references.

Leviticus says instead, "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." Holy does not mean perfect. Holy is close to the word "whole" from which we get "holistic." It is perfect in the sense that it has all the strengths and flaws, it's the real thing, not perfect as in measuring up to an impossible standard of good.

In fact, people quick to tell us that God is "all-good" will be surprised to discover this passage from Isaiah 45:7.



Wait, what?!? God, and not the devil gives us disaster? God creates darkness?

God Uses Flawed People To Share Hope To A Flawed World |



The gravest sin is not whatever you've got in your head that you're blaming yourself for. The gravest sin is your own trying to be so perfect. Because, well not only is "If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself" the case, but those who try really hard not to sin often wind up like the Pharisees, "I thank God that I am not like THOSE PEOPLE, those sinners over there."

Repeat after me:

1. I am not perfect. I am flawed.
2. Jesus loves my flaws though I do not understand why. He will forgive me.
   
3. Jesus may even use my flaws.
4. I will do my best to help others as I see it.
5. And I will let go of how other people say is the "right way" to live or be a Christian.

Why is this sort of Christianity, where getting perspective back, not seen as any good? What happened to loving yourself, and not just your neighbor?

I cannot speak for non-Christians, but my expectation is that some of those that identify as Christian understand that they are not perfect and stop pretending they are.

I could cite examples of this pretense that occupy the bulk of posts by some Christians that are members of this forum.

I recognize that I am flawed and I also recognize that others will have various opinions on what those flaws might be. Not all of those opinions will be accurate or correct.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No point in banging your head against a wall. I have "chatted" with true fundies before, its a total waste of time.

The bulk of my experience chatting with fundies has been on the internet and my conclusion is that it is difficult to establish a meaningful dialogue with people that believe they are perfect and correct in all things. It is a strange condition that they both praise the gifts that they have and then refuse to use them properly or at all.

 

[ChristineM]

The bulk of my experience chatting with fundies has been on the internet and my conclusion is that it is difficult to establish a meaningful dialogue with people that believe they are perfect and correct in all things. It is a strange condition that they both praise the gifts that they have and then refuse to use them properly or at all.

All my experiences with them are on the net. They mostly are american christians for some reason with a others from different faiths scattered across the world.

I find it very strange that they can vehemently deny any verified evidence that disproves their dreams

 

[Dan From Smithville]

All my experiences with them are on the net. They mostly are american christians for some reason with a others from different faiths scattered across the world.

I find it very strange that they can vehemently deny any verified evidence that disproves their dreams

My conclusion remains that most of the evidence is denied by them, but where it is accepted, it is bent and twisted to their personal view in rather awkward and incomplete attempts. It is never followed to any logical or reasonable conclusion.

 

[1213]

...it would be impossible for such a flood to occur as it is described in the Bible.....

Please explain why?

 

[1213]

The bible is proven wrong on several counts, flood,as described in the bible is one of those counts.

Sure you believe it happend, that is called faith, not fact.

Faith actually is faithfulness, which means loyalty. Belief is a different matter, it means that person thinks something is true.

 

[ChristineM]

Faith actually is faithfulness, which means loyalty. Belief is a different matter, it means that person thinks something is true.

Faith : strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Good definition, similar in just about all dictionaries. Perhaps you should contact the dictionary compilers and get them to change it to suite your sensibilities

 

[1213]

Faith : strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Good definition, ...

I like more about how Bible has defined it. One reason for that is that it is reasonable.

 

[ChristineM]

I like more about how Bible has defined it. One reason for that is that it is reasonable.

To you, no doubt, to me i prefer reality.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Please explain why?

There is not that much available water on the surface of the earth or in the atmosphere to achieve the volume that is described. There is not enough free water beneath the surface for a large portion to be delivered from springs. Where did it all go? The kinetic energy released from 40 days and nights of rain would increase temperature and pressure to the point that it would cook a boat full of animals and the eight people that were supposed to be on it. Then getting all those animals into a boat the size that is described is impossible. Then taking care of them for a year.

A lot of wild speculation has been contrived to address some of this, but at best, the speculation just creates new questions that demand answers that remain unanswered. At worst, some of the speculated answers are themselves not possible given the evidence.

The ark story is an allegory and there is no evidence to support that it ever happened as it is described.

There are flood myths that predate the alleged time of the flood. There are flood myths found in many cultures. They are not all about global floods and not all cultures have them. Some of the instances where they myth is shared is the result of cultural contamination. There is no discontinuity in existing cultures around the proposed time the flood is claimed to have occurred--approximately 4,300 to 4,500 years ago.

There is no flood layer containing a mix of animals, plants, debris, or particulate matter that should be there if a global flood had occurred.

There is no global genetic bottleneck that should be in evident in all species on the Earth.

There are places around the world that show no evidence of rainfall going back millions of years.

Polystrate fossils were explained and shown not to be evidence of a global flood 130 years ago.

The list just goes on and on.

 

[1213]

There is not that much available water on the surface of the earth or in the atmosphere to achieve the volume that is described. There is not enough free water beneath the surface for a large portion to be delivered from springs. Where did it all go?

I think it would be important to understand first what the Bible tells. According to the Bible, the flood came, when the “fountains of great deep” were burst open. The “great deep” was water that was below the original one continent. When the fountains were burst open, the water escaped below the earth. Earth means dry land in the Bible. The first continent was broken and sunk. Result was modern continents. The parts of the original continents have slowly sunken more, which means the bottom of oceans has gone deeper. Reason for this is that the drowned stuff has been compressed more and for example become oil and gas fields. This has caused oceans to become deeper and water level to go down, which is why it looks like world doesn’t have enough water for the flood. Water has been also collected to glaciers on north and south pole.

Here are few mages that show the principle how it happened:
Are you a disciple of Jesus?

There is no flood layer containing a mix of animals, plants, debris, or particulate matter that should be there if a global flood had occurred.

Plants and animals have different attributes. Because of that, they don’t get mixed. For example, more advanced animals like mammal float before they drown. That is why it is not logical or reasonable to find them mixed.

There is no global genetic bottleneck that should be in evident in all species on the Earth.

Perhaps it is just not visible in all. But fore example in humans there has allegedly been bottleneck event:

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

 

[sooda]

What do you mean with “God’s word”? I believe Bible is written by people. And I believe God has guided people to write the Bible. And Bible speaks accurately and also tells what God has said. I think people are too evil and non-wise to make it without God. There really is no need for interpretations, Bible explains itself and there is no need to make interpretations.



I believe Bible tells correctly about the great flood. And one reason is: things that can be found from nature support the story.



I think people are too evil and stupid to invent Bible God. So, it would be really difficult to believe in the myth theory. That would require too much belief from me and I think it would require that I become irrational, which I try to avoid, because I don’t like to be irrational.



It would be as possible as to accept that you or nothing else really exists. But, maybe you can prove nothing really exists, there is no gas and oil fields, no marine fossils on high mountains, no orogenic mountains or anything else that is evidence for the great flood?

There wouldn't be so many outright lies, contradictions, anachronisms if God wrote the Bible.

My God.. I just realized that you know so little about science that you think oil fields and plate tectonics mean there was a global flood.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I think it would be important to understand first what the Bible tells. According to the Bible, the flood came, when the “fountains of great deep” were burst open. The “great deep” was water that was below the original one continent. When the fountains were burst open, the water escaped below the earth. Earth means dry land in the Bible. The first continent was broken and sunk. Result was modern continents. The parts of the original continents have slowly sunken more, which means the bottom of oceans has gone deeper. Reason for this is that the drowned stuff has been compressed more and for example become oil and gas fields. This has caused oceans to become deeper and water level to go down, which is why it looks like world doesn’t have enough water for the flood. Water has been also collected to glaciers on north and south pole.

Here are few mages that show the principle how it happened:

I mentioned this already. There is not enough water to create the flood. Everything you state is one of those wild fits of speculation that does not even have biblical support, let alone support of any evidence.

Are you a disciple of Jesus?

I am a Christian. This does not mean that I squander the intelligence I was gifted with.

Plants and animals have different attributes. Because of that, they don’t get mixed. For example, more advanced animals like mammal float before they drown. That is why it is not logical or reasonable to find them mixed.

This is all untrue and has been widely and soundly refuted. All a person has to do is look at the results of local floods to see that this is not true.

Perhaps it is just not visible in all. But fore example in humans there has allegedly been bottleneck event:

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

Humans do show evidence of a population bottleneck some 50,000 years ago, but every living thing would have to possess that bottleneck at the same time. They do not. There is no evidence of a simultaneous bottleneck dated to the same time for all living things.

Originally, it was members of the clergy that set out to find evidence of the flood of Noah and it was they that discovered that there was none.

The real point is that it does not matter. The message of the story is the important point.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

There wouldn't be so many outright lies, contradictions, anachronisms if God wrote the Bible.

My God.. I just realized that you know so little about science that you think oil fields and plate tectonics mean there was a global flood.

It is incredible what passes for science with a biblical literalist. That their explanations defy logic, reason and evidence has never stopped them from turning their speculation into facts.

For the continents to have shifted to the position they are in now, from another central location, they would have had to move so rapidly, the energy released would have destroyed everything like no flood could. For the little bit that Noah and his family would have been alive, they could have literally watched the continents move.

There is that little problem with the difference in age of oil fields and the claimed date of the flood too, but not much reason to point that out, to someone that is going to speculate it away anyhow.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

There wouldn't be so many outright lies, contradictions, anachronisms if God wrote the Bible.

My God.. I just realized that you know so little about science that you think oil fields and plate tectonics mean there was a global flood.

I was not surprised to see that @1213 provided the old standard responses and did so without a hint of recognition to the fact that these have all been dealt with many, many times in the past. They are the standards that creationists turn to and are kept alive by those that do not understand science or have much experience applying logic.

Sorry for all the edits. I am trying to learn how to use the BB codes.

 

[sooda]

It is incredible what passes for science with a biblical literalist. That their explanations defy logic, reason and evidence has never stopped them from turning their speculation into facts.

For the continents to have shifted to the position they are in now, from another central location, they would have had to move so rapidly, the energy released would have destroyed everything like no flood could. For the little bit that Noah and his family would have been alive, they could have literally watched the continents move.

There is that little problem with the difference in age of oil fields and the claimed date of the flood too, but not much reason to point that out, to someone that is going to speculate it away anyhow.

Even now continents are slowly drifting.. the Himalayans are getting taller, the Arabian Peninsula is tilting to the east and the Red Sea is getting wider.

We do our children a huge disservice to reject science.. Rambam covered it in his Guide for the Perplexed.

Science and Medieval Philosophy: Maimonides | My Jewish ...
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/science-and-medieval...
As Isadore Twersky has shown, Maimonides was also not averse to introducing scientific knowledge into his formulations of Jewish law, not only “to integrate science, to relate a scientific vocabulary and axiology to rabbinic law, but also to recognize its autonomy and not to superimpose it on the structure and fabric of the halakha [Jewish …


Astrology is a disease, not a science... It is a tree under the shadow of which all sorts of superstitions thrive. ... Only fools and charlatans lend value to it. — Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon Maimonides. Letter to Marseilles, 1195.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Even now continents are slowly drifting.. the Himalayans are getting taller, the Arabian Peninsula is tilting to the east and the Red Sea is getting wider.

We do our children a huge disservice to reject science.. Rambam covered it in his Guide for the Perplexed.

Science and Medieval Philosophy: Maimonides | My Jewish ...
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/science-and-medieval...
As Isadore Twersky has shown, Maimonides was also not averse to introducing scientific knowledge into his formulations of Jewish law, not only “to integrate science, to relate a scientific vocabulary and axiology to rabbinic law, but also to recognize its autonomy and not to superimpose it on the structure and fabric of the halakha [Jewish …


Astrology is a disease, not a science... It is a tree under the shadow of which all sorts of superstitions thrive. ... Only fools and charlatans lend value to it. — Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon Maimonides. Letter to Marseilles, 1195.

I agree. There is a sort of disorganized movement among the very religious and the poor and uneducated in the US to marginalize and reject education, science and the acquisition of knowledge. Like most subcultures, this one exists on the backs of those that they reject.

 

[sooda]

I agree. There is a sort of disorganized movement among the very religious and the poor and uneducated in the US to marginalize and reject education, science and the acquisition of knowledge. Like most subcultures, this one exists on the backs of those that they reject.

Like you, I think a Christian has an obligation to use their god given intellect.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Like you, I think a Christian has an obligation to use their god given intellect.

An obligation I see too many shirk.

 

[sooda]

An obligation I see too many shirk.

Are you familiar with the Serpent Seed doctrine or Arnold Murray?

Serpent seed - Wikipedia