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Paul vs "the law" (can humans earn righteousness?)

Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Paul on obedience/righteousness​

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2:21

"...for by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16

Law of Moses on obedience/righteousness

"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18: 27-28

Which concept does your religion agree with more?
 
JRMcC

JRMcC

Active Member
Simplelogic said:
Law of Moses on obedience/righteousness

"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18: 27-28
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I agree with this more.

Simplelogic said:
then Christ died needlessly."
Click to expand...

So, maybe he did in some sense. Just sayin Paul.
 
wizanda

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
People can try to be righteous, following what is right helps....So the commandments are a good starting point....No one 'earns' righteousness, God can see you as righteous for good action and character.

To paraphrase what Yeshua said, be righteous and at the end of it all, say we did what was expected...The idea of earning righteousness, is something Paul/Pharisees made up.

Deuteronomy 6 is about the Commandments that were in the previous chapter, and Ezekiel is about following what is lawful...It is easy to see why Paul undermined righteousness is only earned from following the Law of Moses; yet his method of making a covenant with Christ's death, is just wrong. :innocent:
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
No. All righteousness necessarily originates with God.. And, because righteousness is self-perpetuating, it must be a result of God's predetermination.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think the two concepts refer to different things. Ezekiel speaks of life on Earth. Paul speaks of life with God. Life with God can be on Earth but need not be.
 
RedDragon94

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Simplelogic said:
Paul on obedience/righteousness​

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2:21

"...for by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16

Law of Moses on obedience/righteousness

"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18: 27-28

Which concept does your religion agree with more?
Click to expand...
Well, I like both. Both the Old and New Testaments teach repentance at the core. I guess the question is: Are people born sinful?
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Sleeppy said:
No. All righteousness necessarily originates with God.. And, because righteousness is self-perpetuating, it must be a result of God's predetermination.
Click to expand...
??? Then why would God tell us that we will be righteous if we follow His laws?
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
savagewind said:
I think the two concepts refer to different things. Ezekiel speaks of life on Earth. Paul speaks of life with God. Life with God can be on Earth but need not be.
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So you believe Ezekiel means that if we follow the commandments we will be blessed on earth but go to hell afterwards?
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
wizanda said:
People can try to be righteous, following what is right helps....So the commandments are a good starting point....No one 'earns' righteousness, God can see you as righteous for good action and character.
Click to expand...

So the LORD repaid me according to my righteousness, according to my cleanness in His sight. 2 Sam 22: 25

Men clearly earn their righteousness.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Simplelogic said:
So what happens to the men who headed Ezekiel's warning and returned to God and repented? Will they go to heaven?
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I think they will. But I also think that some people love the life on Earth more than heavenly life and that is what will be their portion in the resurrection.....but of course, I don't know.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
savagewind said:
I think they will. But I also think that some people love the life on Earth more than heavenly life and that is what will be their portion in the resurrection.....but of course, I don't know.
Click to expand...
What about people who live righteously today but don't believe in Jesus?
 
RedDragon94

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Simplelogic said:
Paul does teach original sin. The Hebrew scriptures do not. Nor do Jesus' letters teach the concept.
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If there is no such thing as original sin then there is no need for repentance. (Yet the Old Testament states that if the people of Israel would turn from their wicked way and seek God that he would return to them.) Another thing is, a person cannot be considered righteous by what they do unless there are things that they would otherwise do that are not righteous.
 
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