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"Patriotic millionaires" call for their tax cuts to expire

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Mercy Not Sacrifice, Nov 20, 2010.

  1. Mercy Not Sacrifice

    Mercy Not Sacrifice Well-Known Member

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    "Patriotic millionaires" call for their tax cuts to expire - Joe Conason - Salon.com

    This begs the question as to what defines "patriotism." I read a quote years ago that says, "A real patriot is someone who receives a parking ticket and rejoices that the system works." Here are some people who know that they are able to help finance our public systems, and now they are choosing to be willing to do so as well.

    In the opposite camp, the blind contempt for government that many Americans have is, IMO, completely unpatriotic. How can you claim to love a society yet hate its governing body? Again, it's like the man who tells his wife that he loves her so much, he wants to divorce her. Such a claim is illogical at best and bitterly cruel at worst. Yet so many Americans do the exact same thing, when they say that they wouldn't dream of doing what these millionaires are doing!
     
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  2. Mercy Not Sacrifice

    Mercy Not Sacrifice Well-Known Member

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    No takers? Anyone think these millionaires are doing something bad?
     
  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    They system working......
    China
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    I thinks it's cool that they realize they are the ones who actually have money to help with the financial crisis.
     
  5. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    Sunstone started a thread on this on Friday, and no one commented on that either. I guess there's not much to say. Those of us who understand that these people are real and normal like the story and don't have anything to say other than "Good for them", and those who think raising taxes on the rich is unfair and will make them all leave just ignore it.
     
  6. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    Myself, I was working for a charity all weekend and did not have time to post a comment. lets see If I can shed some light on the subject.

    That is a simple question. I guess it would depend upon who was governing and what policies they wanted to implement.

    Think about it, the Liberals displayed Bush derangement syndrome. Does that qualify them as unpatriotic? The same holds true of Obama criticizers.

    Some folks refer to millionaires with a bad taste in their mouth. These are the folks who create jobs. Not knowing their tax liability in the future nor understanding their obligation to employees because of lack of understanding of thousands of pages in the health care bill has them sitting on the sidelines in regards to creating jobs.

    Taxes need to be raised on these individuals to get our fiscal house in order, but the timing right now could not be worse. I believe it would make our recession last even longer.

    The American people want to get back to work first and get our fiscal house in order second.

    The Obama administration has failed miserably at stimulating the economy. I believe the reason for this is because the government cannot be a job creator.

    The small business person will be the one to create jobs not the government. These small business folks that are able to create jobs make somewhere between 250,000 and several million.

    Taxing them at the same rate as huge corporations is unfair. Instead of 250,000 the tax increase cap should be raised to 5 or 10 million.

    It is the huge corporations that are shipping jobs overseas, not the small business person.

    Small business has been unable to receive business loans while the big corporations are flush with tax payer cash.

    Right now, no one even knows what their tax liability or responsibility of hiring more people will even be.

    The Obama administration has no clue about creating jobs or stimulating the economy. Perhaps if we had some small business people in the administration instead of academics, we might get somewhere.

    Obama just does not get it, the government is the problem right now not the solution. If he does not pull his head out of his butt, he will be a one term President.

    Lets have a tax holiday and put some money into the peoples hands instead of government. Once this recession is over and the unemployment figures drop, we then can address government spending and the need for a tax increase.
     
  7. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    OK, first, let's remember that the recession we went into was the worst since the Great Depression. Getting out of that isn't an overnight thing. It's possible we could have seen more improvement by now with a different approach. It's also possible we could be worse off right now with a different approach.

    Now, to the actual point of the thread. These people realize that taxing them more isn't going to hurt the economy, and it's probably not going to affect it at all. If you actually read the article, they talk about letting tax cuts expire for people making over $1,000,000. $5-10 million is a little silly.

    Anyway, the real point here is that, contrary to what you believe, raising taxes on the rich is not going to make them all run away. At least some of the rich understand the situation, and realize their role in it.
     
  8. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    Thats debatable.
    You state that raising taxes will not hurt the economy as fact. :facepalm:

    It is not silly to raise the tax limit to 5 million, how much do you think it costs to hire say 50 to 100 people?
    The "run away" debate is in another thread and I believe we had a good discussion about that and found some common ground. :yes:
     
  9. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    You know, I have another comment to make about this thread. No one is stopping these "patriotic millionaires" from sending the government more money.
     
  10. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    I said it's possible that things are better because of Obama, and it's possible things are no worse than they would be if we had done nothing. What debatable about that?

    No, I state it as a reasonable conclusion, and these people who are in a better position than me to judge agree.

    Yes, it is silly. If you're making $1 million a year, you fall into the "very rich" category. I can agree that we can go higher than the $250,000 that's been thrown around for a while, but going higher than $1 million in unnecessary.

    Yes, and I just thought this was interesting in the context of your claim in that thread.
     
  11. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    1) I'm not actually sure about that. It seems to me you're not allowed to pay extra taxes. I tried to check into it, but I haven't had much time. I could be wrong.

    2) Their point is that it would be good for the country if the taxes were raised on people like them who make more than $1 million. Sure, they could also donate extra money (assuming that's allowed), but their real point is that taxes should be raised on the rich.
     
  12. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    You act like this is income that can be spent however a person wants. This is just not the case Matt. You have to keep a certain level of investment capital on hand for the next project. What if the next project was unsuccessful? You may need enough money to double down before you see another profit.

    You keep acting like this million dollars is disposable income, it is not when you own a business.

    One million is chump change these days. "very rich", not hardly. One million is not even enough to retire comfortably without running out of money.

    One million is upper middle class in some places but not everywhere in the country.

    These folks may be well off, but hardly rich by today's standards.

    Remember "40 acres and a mule"? 40 acres is hard to come by for a million now a days. Back in the day, were people that had a 40 acre farm rich?

    There was a time when a million dollars meant something. You could travel the world or buy an apartment overlooking Central park in Manhattan on a million bucks.

    To me, "very rich" means you can live where you like, never have to work again, travel at will and never have to kiss any one's butt.
     
    #12 Reverend Rick, Nov 22, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  13. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    Good, and when you make $1 million a year, you can keep a lot of investment capital on hand for the next project. When you bring in $1 million, that's money that can be spent however you want. If you want to reinvest some of it or start a new venture, great.

    These comments show just how out of touch you are. My wife and I bring in less than $100,000. That's less than a tenth of the amount these people bring in. I'd say we're lower middle class. We do OK, but we haven't had kids yet. Making over $1 million is very rich. Sorry, but it is. To say these people are just upper middle class is just stupid. People making that much make up about 1% of American earners. It's pretty hard to call that middle class.

    Yes, a million dollars isn't what it used to be. That doesn't mean someone making that much a year isn't rich. When you make more than 10 times the median salary, you're rich. When you make more than 20 times the median salary, you're very rich. When you make that much, you can live where you want, and very quickly never have to work again or kiss anyone's butt.

    But I digress. Making over $1 million a year is very rich, and can afford to pay much more in taxes than the current levels.
     
  14. Duck

    Duck Well-Known Member

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    I was kind of shocked when I saw that article last week. Then I realized that they were indeed patriotic. I was thinking about taxation and whatnot, and realized that in order for the country to survive the governmental budget must be balanced. Taxes must be raised in order to do so. That or drastic cuts in spending must be undertaken. Unfortunately, given how hip deep most politicos are with various industry, it is unlikely that those cuts will happen where I think that they should, nor is it likely that my spending priorities will be adopted.
     
  15. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    I'm sorry Matt, but that is a load of crap. How much do you get to keep after taxes? How many employees do you want to employ and how much do you want to invest?
    Small business owners most likely live on less than you do Matt, their money is tied up with investments and payroll.
    You know what? If all you have to do is take care of your household with that money, you are right. You just do not understand that small businesses bleed money and without a tax incentive, double digit unemployment is here to stay. :sorry1:
     
  16. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    The rich have been getting very rich since the recession got bad. It added a few hundred billionaires (which didn't create that many jobs), and the top 90% earners make over 70% of the money. Half of the American households only make 2.5% of the money. Raising there taxes isn't going to hurt the economy, it isn't going to hurt the job market, but it will collect billions in tax dollars which is the only thing that can have a significant impact on reducing the deficit.
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    I don't like this phrasing. All of taxation is a disincentive, so the most important issue should be to design a tax structure which minimally
    operates against investor, business & worker productivity, while still raising needed revenue. This should trump discussions of "fairness",
    which would be addressed automatically if everyone gets to keep enuf of their marginal income to be encouraged to produce. This relates
    to why I found the Bush tax cuts a poor measure, since they preserved counterproductive personal tax deductions, while keeping the marginal
    tax rates relatively high. Economists in gov't don't seem to understand (at least publicly) the importance of incentives & disincentives, particularly
    in the cases of companies looking at whether they're better off producing domestically or overseas. As long as we have leaders who look at
    economics & taxation simplistically as an "us against them" redistribution in the name of fairness, we'll keep losing ground to other countries.
     
    #17 Revoltingest, Nov 22, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    But how many small business owners make over a million dollars a year on their own personal income? I'm sure they're out their, but they aren't here.
     
  19. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    Many small business owners file their taxes as personal income. Many are not incorporated.
     
  20. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    What does your second question have to do with anything? Right now out of $2 million, after federal taxes you get to keep about $1,322,000 if you take absolutely no deductions at all. That's personal income to do with what you will.

    Yeah, I doubt that. I know there are a lot of small business owners who live on about what I do or maybe a little bit more, but they're not the group we're talking about. We're talking about the group that lives on considerably more than I do. If they're making $1 million a year, they're living on more than 10 times what I'm living on. Unless they're doing something wrong, their personal income is not tied up in payroll, and if they want to tie it up in investments, that's up to them.

    I understand completely about small businesses. You're getting yourself confused. If a small business is bleeding money, they're probably not going to have to worry about having their taxes raised by the suggestion of these people, since they're not making $1 million a year. These people are living proof that the higher taxes you rail against so much won't cause double-digit unemployment to stay.
     
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