Overcoming Sexual Indoctrination

[Shadow Wolf]

Is this necessarily an issue of indoctrination alone? I could easily see instinct as playing a big role here too.

It is entirely cultural. We know this because many cultures have had special privileges for "third-sex" or "two-spirit" type of people, and many have even considered being married to such a person is a sign of good fortune. In Iran, anti-homosexual laws do not apply to cases such as a trans-woman and a man because the trans-woman is considered a woman. We know that in the Hindu religion, many gods have changed their sexes. It very much is an issue of indoctrination.

 

[David1967]

Don't beat yourself up about it. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think we can automatically change within ourselves what traits in a person we are naturally attracted to. Just because certain things attract you to a person or doesn't has nothing to do with prejudice or bigotry. I think each person is wired to be attracted to certain human traits. I mean, I like a lot of people I'm not physically attracted to.

 

[Akivah]

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

{snip}

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

I agree with you. It is not your problem, but of those that want to make abnormality into something normal. Bruce Jenner is a mutilated man. And thinking of him that way is just reality and not a problem. You need to pay less attention to those that want to normalize deviancy.

 

[Sunstone]

You need to pay less attention to those that want to normalize deviancy.

What does the word "deviancy" mean to you? According to what criteria do you determine someone is a "deviate"?

If it's just that some person or persons deviate from the norm, then is it proper to call Jews "religious deviates" anywhere outside of Israel?

 

[Parsimony]

It is entirely cultural. We know this because many cultures have had special privileges for "third-sex" or "two-spirit" type of people, and many have even considered being married to such a person is a sign of good fortune. In Iran, anti-homosexual laws do not apply to cases such as a trans-woman and a man because the trans-woman is considered a woman. We know that in the Hindu religion, many gods have changed their sexes. It very much is an issue of indoctrination.

Interesting, but now I'm starting to wonder if there may also be an epigenetic component to it (i.e. culture having an influence on the way that genes are expressed). I want to think I've read something about that having an influence on what kinds of foods we like or something as well.

Good post. I wouldn't have wanted to drink it, either.

Not only would I drink it, but I would have eaten the roach too. Then again, I don't consider myself to be very normal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree with you. It is not your problem, but of those that want to make abnormality into something normal. Bruce Jenner is a mutilated man. And thinking of him that way is just reality and not a problem. You need to pay less attention to those that want to normalize deviancy.

She isn't a "mutilated man." You can go off about all this non-sense that you want, but medically Caitlin Jenner is female. Psychologically, she is female. Physically, I don't know, but what difference does it make, especially if she is post-op? There's nothing "abnormal" or "deviant" about it. Like it or not, that is just how you were culturally conditioned to think about it, because it's not a universal standard, and the exact opposite mentality is known to exist
So, how about you worry about your own life, and we'll worry about ours? It's not like we're out to get you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Interesting, but now I'm starting to wonder if there may also be an epigenetic component to it (i.e. culture having an influence on the way that genes are expressed). I want to think I've read something about that having an influence on what kinds of foods we like or something as well.

For some there may be, but everything I have ever read indicates social acceptance, rejection, normalization, or even deification is entirely cultural.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I agree with you. It is not your problem, but of those that want to make abnormality into something normal. Bruce Jenner is a mutilated man. And thinking of him that way is just reality and not a problem. You need to pay less attention to those that want to normalize deviancy.

I find your post intolerant and insensitive at best. Sorry to say, but it is my problem if I can't identify people as the gender they identify themselves with. I know it would be convenient for me to think that transgendered people are "deviated" and "mutilated men/women" and that I'm just being "normal" by rejecting their gender identity, but I simply find that to be untrue. Admitting a problem is the first step toward solving it.

I'm trying to overcome this problem, not embrace it. Your post seems to me to be telling me that I should embrace the prejudice. I couldn't disagree more with that.

 

[Madhuri]

Guys, please cease this argument between each other here as it is off topic.

 

[Mindmaster]

Guys, please cease this argument between each other here as it is off topic.

Sorry, but the allegations are very serious and untrue. I am doing my best to clear them up without violating rules as I really have no idea what is going on with it otherwise. I apologize if this is causing a problem.

 

[Madhuri]

Sorry, but the allegations are very serious and untrue. I am doing my best to clear them up without violating rules as I really have no idea what is going on with it otherwise. I apologize if this is causing a problem.

This isn't the place for it. Feel free to create a thread for one-on-one debate or sort it out via PM.

 

[Maponos]

This has been bothering me for quite some time, so I'd like to post this here, where it seems to be most relevant. It has to do with a previous post I made in the Dating Preferences thread. It's kind of embarrassing to talk about, but I'd just like to get it off my chest.

Spoiler

Since about 2014, I began to be attracted to Asian men. Now, this seems rather insignificant, but I'd only been attracted to men of my own race prior to that. There are many reasons why this could produce some inner conflicts, so I'll try to relate them.

So, I'd only been attracted to men of my own race before 2014. Such a sudden change kind of disturbed me, actually. At first I thought it might be a phase and that I might just be fetishizing them, which I didn't want to do as I don't approve of such fetishes.

I also have a very strong sense of culture identity which is reinforced by my faith. In a way, it felt as if I was betraying the gods and my culture.

Eventually, I just accepted that I was attracted to Asian men, but I was unsure if I could have a relationship with one due to cultural differences. Also, there's a growing tendency for gay Asian American men to act as if they are entitled to be dated because many of them feel they are ignored by the white gay community (they often go for white men). It's that same sort of bigotry labeling that the Dating Preferences thread talked about. I could never date someone who was like that; I would feel like it would be almost humiliating to date someone who thinks I should date them despite how I feel.

Currently, I'm talking to a few Japanese men who are in Japan itself and I actually feel a lot better about myself. I have a very negative impression about the Western gay community and Western gay men in general and the men I've had the luck of meeting have been very kind and thoughtful; the opposite of most of the gay men I've met here. I think these positive associations have actually produced a preference for Japanese men.

I still feel some sort of guilt, though. I think it may be due to the grief a portion of the gay community, and Western culture in general, gives to those have date Asians. Some gay men might accuse you of being a 'rice queen' (a white man who prefers or has a fetish for Asian men) or accuse you of fetishizing them for perceived traits or qualities.

I'm attracted to Asian features, yes, but I don't think I have a fetish. I hate being made to feel dirty by other people because of this. In a way, this is a form of sexual indoctrination.

 

[Horrorble]

In Iran, they do legally and religiously consider someone who has transitioned to be of the sex they transitioned to. Anti-homosexual laws are not applicable so long as they are with the sex that is opposite of what they transitioned to.

Do you consider that to be completely positive?
For me reading that, it sounds like transitioning can be encouraged and used as a form of modern gay/lesbian conversion therapy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you consider that to be completely positive?

That they accept them, legally and religiously, yes I do consider that entirely positive.

For me reading that, it sounds like transitioning can be encouraged and used as a form of modern gay/lesbian conversion therapy.

Unfortunately, in Iran, though they do legally accept transsexuals, they do encourage one of the partners is a homosexual relationship to transition to avoid being homosexual. But, it's still the fact that such a horribly repressive society that is very strictly religious accepts them. But here, in "be yourself" America, we are so very frequently not accepted by society or the law.

 

[Horrorble]

That they accept them, legally and religiously, yes I do consider that entirely positive.

Unfortunately, in Iran, though they do legally accept transsexuals, they do encourage one of the partners is a homosexual relationship to transition to avoid being homosexual. But, it's still the fact that such a horribly repressive society that is very strictly religious accepts them. But here, in "be yourself" America, we are so very frequently not accepted by society or the law.

So it is a form of gay conversion therapy over there, which is why transexuals are really accepted. The agenda is to get rid of those they consider to be homosexuals. It's just a different form of conservatism.

 

[Acim]

Lately, I have been thinking about an issue related to attraction to trans women. That started even before a recent discussion on this forum about dating trans women who had a penis, which made me think about this issue even more.

While I maintain that I and others have the right not to date people whose bodies we are not attracted to for any reason, including for having the same genitals as ours, the main issue that is bothering me is that knowing that a woman is transgendered in and of itself kills off any attraction for me. For instance, I watch competitive "eSports," and one of the players I have seen is a girl. I found her attractive both in terms of her looks and personality, being that she is a gamer. I later found out that she is a trans woman, so my attraction faded away for absolutely no reason other than the fact that she is a trans woman.

And then there is the issue of sometimes having difficulty thinking of transgendered people as members of the gender they identify with. I know that gender dysphoria exists and also know that gender and physical sex are different things, yet sometimes when I know that someone is a trans woman or a trans man, I have difficulty thinking of them as belonging to the gender they identify with.

I don't know if this is a remnant of the extremely rigid and black-and-white Islamic beliefs I was taught from childhood, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable and bothers me a lot because I know it is irrational and prejudiced. It confuses me that I know about gender dysphoria and accept that gender and physical sex are not synonymous and yet have this problem of sometimes failing to accept people as members of the gender they identify with.

I'm mainly looking for opinions and advice concerning this, since I'm trying to change in this area and hope to be able to overcome this problem. It makes me feel like a bigot, and I dislike that.

I think being honest with yourself (foremost) is huge step toward making the change you want to make - not wanting to feel like a bigot. Telling the truth about yourself to another is another huge step, and telling the truth about yourself to everyone (as an open forum post does) is a monumental step. It opens you up to wide array of opinions, some of which may not be welcomed.

That first step, being honest with yourself, is the one I think matters most. Might take awhile, but I trust that you'll learn to forgive yourself of any perceived notions that you are doing something inherently wrong. You are being you. And you get to choose if the 'bigot' label even applies. Currently you are saying it does. I'd disagree, but also realize that might not change anything for you in this very moment.

I'm not sure if I can offer any good advice, but I would suggest being light hearted with yourself about this, apart from what others think you ought to feel about this. It can be a very serious topic, but also can be treated with sense of levity. I wouldn't recommend that as an end point by which to express all future thoughts on this topic for yourself, but just a way to step back and contemplate on things you are going through with emotions and psychology. Because of the highly sensitive nature of the topic, I am reluctant to offer suggestions for what could be seen as humorous in this, but still feel like advising as such, and trust within yourself you can find that path. I do think humor is way to confront certain negative emotions while also serving as way of self acceptance. Might not work that way for you.

Wishing you all the best.