Origins

[Penumbra]

In Sanatana Dharma / Hinduism, I have seen it said that existence has no beginning or end, but instead is cyclical and eternal. I have also seen it said that in Hinduism, most or all suffering/unhappiness/dissatisfaction is a result of ignorance. As in, we are ignorant of some true reality and thus live in a world of illusions where we suffer.

My question is, in Hinduism what are the explanations for why this is the case? How did it get to be that so many beings are in ignorance? Was it part of a plan? Was it some fall? Is this how things are always meant to be, or is this a problem that is mean to be resolved?

To clarify or rephrase the same question, in Hinduism, I have seen it said that we are all being reincarnated over and over and are causing and experiencing Karma. The primary objective is to escape from this cycle to achieve Moksha, which is said to be some sort of union with god (I have seen two distinct views of what Moksha is: one in which the being unites completely with god like a drop of water into an ocean and loses its sense of distinctness completely where Atman is said to equal Brahman, and the second in which the being unites with god but remains a sort of servant in blissful service to god like a cell being part of a body). My question is, why is everyone not already in a state of Moksha? Why does anything other than Moksha exist?

Or to rephrase it a third way, if I were to draw a parallel to another religion and use Christianity as an example, that religion has the story of the fall of Adam and Eve, which basically serves as some sort of explanation as to why suffering and evil exist (with the validity of the story being unimportant for the purpose of this thread). There was said to be some sort of early goodness, but then there occurred a problem, and then there was a lack of goodness. Does Hinduism have some sort of parallel to this, or some sort of explanation as to why we are all not already experiencing blissful union with god/Brahman?

Some sub-questions might be applicable, such as:
-Do you believe there was ever a time when there existed nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union with god?
-Do you believe that, at any time in the future, there will exist a time when nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union in god will exist?
-How do these concepts relate to the cycles that are said to occur in Hindu cosmology? Does suffering/ignorance spring each time from the beginning of one of these cycles and end at the conclusion of each cycle? If so, why? If no, then what part do the cycles play in this process?
-Have all the beings that are currently in existence been here forever, or were they all created at some finite point?

Thanks,
-Lyn

 

[Riverwolf]

In Sanatana Dharma / Hinduism, I have seen it said that existence has no beginning or end, but instead is cyclical and eternal. I have also seen it said that in Hinduism, most or all suffering/unhappiness/dissatisfaction is a result of ignorance. As in, we are ignorant of some true reality and thus live in a world of illusions where we suffer.

My question is, in Hinduism what are the explanations for why this is the case? How did it get to be that so many beings are in ignorance? Was it part of a plan? Was it some fall? Is this how things are always meant to be, or is this a problem that is mean to be resolved?

To clarify or rephrase the same question, in Hinduism, I have seen it said that we are all being reincarnated over and over and are causing and experiencing Karma. The primary objective is to escape from this cycle to achieve Moksha, which is said to be some sort of union with god (I have seen two distinct views of what Moksha is: one in which the being unites completely with god like a drop of water into an ocean and loses its sense of distinctness completely where Atman is said to equal Brahman, and the second in which the being unites with god but remains a sort of servant in blissful service to god like a cell being part of a body). My question is, why is everyone not already in a state of Moksha? Why does anything other than Moksha exist?

Or to rephrase it a third way, if I were to draw a parallel to another religion and use Christianity as an example, that religion has the story of the fall of Adam and Eve, which basically serves as some sort of explanation as to why suffering and evil exist (with the validity of the story being unimportant for the purpose of this thread). There was said to be some sort of early goodness, but then there occurred a problem, and then there was a lack of goodness. Does Hinduism have some sort of parallel to this, or some sort of explanation as to why we are all not already experiencing blissful union with god/Brahman?

Well, as Swami Vivekananda said, I don't know.

Hindus, unlike some other religions, don't claim to have all the answers, and this is a question for which there is none, as far as I know.

Some sub-questions might be applicable, such as:
-Do you believe there was ever a time when there existed nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union with god?

Yes.

-Do you believe that, at any time in the future, there will exist a time when nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union in god will exist?

Yes.

-How do these concepts relate to the cycles that are said to occur in Hindu cosmology? Does suffering/ignorance spring each time from the beginning of one of these cycles and end at the conclusion of each cycle? If so, why? If no, then what part do the cycles play in this process?

I honestly don't know this one.

-Have all the beings that are currently in existence been here forever, or were they all created at some finite point?

"There was never a time when you, I, or these kings, did not exist. Nor will we ever cease to be." (Bhagavad-Gita 2:12.)

 

[Penumbra]

Well, as Swami Vivekananda said, I don't know.

Hindus, unlike some other religions, don't claim to have all the answers, and this is a question for which there is none, as far as I know.

Yes.

Yes.

I honestly don't know this one.

I don't know who Swami Vivekananda is, but thanks for your honesty.

I've asked this question on another forum quite a while back where I received some answers but none of them seemed particularly complete to me. It seems interesting to me that in the thousands of years that this group of religions and philosophies has existed, this question doesn't have an answer.

"There was never a time when you, I, or these kings, did not exist. Nor will we ever cease to be." (Bhagavad-Gita 2:12.)

Thanks. Do you think this refers to the one whole or to separate units of some sort? I mean, I have no doubt that Hindus believe that Brahman/god always existed, but what about our individual selves? Have we always existed as distinct units, or is our distinctness impermanent?

-Lyn

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't know who Swami Vivekananda is, but thanks for your honesty.

I've asked this question on another forum quite a while back where I received some answers but none of them seemed particularly complete to me. It seems interesting to me that in the thousands of years that this group of religions and philosophies has existed, this question doesn't have an answer.

Swami Vivekananda was one of the greatest Hindu teachers in history. All of his writings can be found here:

Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda

It honestly doesn't surprise me that the answers aren't readily available. It could be that the Sages knew the answer and chose not to impart it onto their disciples for whatever reason.

Some schools of thought have attempted to answer the question, but I haven't really studied those in depth, so I wouldn't know what some of the answers are. Remember that Hinduism is an umbrella term for various religions and not a singular religion itself.

Thanks. Do you think this refers to the one whole or to separate units of some sort? I mean, I have no doubt that Hindus believe that Brahman/god always existed, but what about our individual selves? Have we always existed as distinct units, or is our distinctness impermanent?

-Lyn

Regarding that, it depends on whether or not you follow dvaita (the school of dualism) or advaita (the school of non-dualism.) In dvaita, we're basically the branches on the tree, whose root is God. In advaita, there is no essential difference between us and God (Brahman.)

I'm sure more knowledgeable members will be able to expand/correct this.

 

[LuisDantas]

Allow me a question (and a speculation) or two, River?

It honestly doesn't surprise me that the answers aren't readily available. It could be that the Sages knew the answer and chose not to impart it onto their disciples for whatever reason.

Could well be. Would you deem it possible for those reasons to include either a recognition that imparting the words is too dissimilar from imparting the actual wisdom of those answers, or perhaps that some of those questions are in fact counterproductive?

Some schools of thought have attempted to answer the question, but I haven't really studied those in depth, so I wouldn't know what some of the answers are. Remember that Hinduism is an umbrella term for various religions and not a singular religion itself.

I often feel that the one factor that unites Hinduism is its language. Nearly everything else, up to and including the ultimate goals of the religion, seem to be a matter of choosing one line over others.

Would you agree?

 

[Penumbra]

Swami Vivekananda was one of the greatest Hindu teachers in history. All of his writings can be found here:

Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda

It honestly doesn't surprise me that the answers aren't readily available. It could be that the Sages knew the answer and chose not to impart it onto their disciples for whatever reason.

Some schools of thought have attempted to answer the question, but I haven't really studied those in depth, so I wouldn't know what some of the answers are. Remember that Hinduism is an umbrella term for various religions and not a singular religion itself.

Thanks for the link. I noticed he has some writings on Karma Yoga, so I'll be sure to read them. Karma Yoga is my favorite aspect of Hinduism.

As for the answers not being readily available, I suppose to me it just seems that it would be among the first few questions one would ask about something. One thing that interests me about Hinduism is that it includes, seemingly more than most other religions, paths for everyone. There are a variety of paths for different personality types. So I guess I'd be surprised that there would not be answers for those who are interested in such things.

Anyway, I realize that Hinduism is very broad set of beliefs (if you notice, in my previous post I called it "a group of religions and philosophies"), and I'm not under the delusion that I'll be given one fulfilling and shared answer. I'm simply looking to discuss the matter with a variety of Hindus.

Regarding that, it depends on whether or not you follow dvaita (the school of dualism) or advaita (the school of non-dualism.) In dvaita, we're basically the branches on the tree, whose root is God. In advaita, there is no essential difference between us and God (Brahman.)

I'm sure more knowledgeable members will be able to expand/correct this.

I was eventually planning on starting another thread on that in this subforum at some point. I've got a few questions including this one about origins, that question about dvaita and advaita, and a few others. I don't want to flood everyone with all my questions at once, though. I just joined the forum yesterday, so there's no rush.

-Lyn

 

[Pradyumnan]

My dearest sister Lyn,
You are such a wonderful person to have asked these questions. Behind everything that happens anywhere, there is a motive of the Gods to educate mankind and this is also the same.

My question is, in Hinduism what are the explanations for why this is the case? How did it get to be that so many beings are in ignorance? Was it part of a plan? Was it some fall? Is this how things are always meant to be, or is this a problem that is mean to be resolved?

As you have already mentioned, mankind staying in any state, either good or bad, is because of the karma it has performed. Sat-karma(good deeds) and duS-karma(misdeeds) lead to svarga(heaven) and naraka(hell) respectively. Now coming to your question, ignorance is caused by the mind that has no knowledge or is not trying to understand the paramAtma(supreme-soul). When we were given our lives by the Gods, we were given sufficient gnana(knowledge) to understand what is good and what is bad. But when we started using the gnana, we were much more attracted towards the temporary pleasures of life which lead to nothing but rebirth. We did not choose the way which leads us to mOkSha.
No, it was not any plan to make us ignorant. God gave us light and instead of searching for something fruitful to mOkSha, we went on delving into the unfathomable(by us) darkness of ignorance by indulging ourselves into one-day pleasures.
No, neither is it a fall nor was it meant to be this way. Though the scriptures refer to an age when mankind will realize its folly. Time will come when Gods will give us a chance to rectify ourselves. And even then if we fail to do so, its rebirth again.

To clarify or rephrase the same question, in Hinduism, I have seen it said that we are all being reincarnated over and over and are causing and experiencing Karma. The primary objective is to escape from this cycle to achieve Moksha, which is said to be some sort of union with god (I have seen two distinct views of what Moksha is: one in which the being unites completely with god like a drop of water into an ocean and loses its sense of distinctness completely where Atman is said to equal Brahman, and the second in which the being unites with god but remains a sort of servant in blissful service to god like a cell being part of a body). My question is, why is everyone not already in a state of Moksha? Why does anything other than Moksha exist?

MOkSha is of many types sister Lyn, sAyujya, sAlOkya, sArUpya... and so on. If you want the list, I will refer to BAgavata and give it to you.
Now this is what is the most disturbing part of it. We are not eager about mOkSha, what we crave for is pleasure. We do not try to know about our reason for being here but we go on indulging ourselves into this colourful world of enjoyment. I mean, Gods have given this colorful world so that we may enjoy our lives as humans and try to gain gnana about how to control our mind, but we should not make it a habit to go on deep into its depth. Thats why everyone are not mukta(one who has attained mOkSha is a muktha).
Things other than mOkSha do exist, svarga and naraka. These are for the gap period between our beginning(Adi) and union with God(mOkSha). After each birth, we are given the same knowledge(albeit our duS-karma janita). And after death, each and every karma performed by us, both good and bad is calculated. Based upon these facts, we are sent to svarga and naraka respectively. But these are for the souls who do not care for the eternal gnana. And for those mumukShu(people who are neither interested in svarga nor naraka) the doors of mOkSha is always opened. MOkSha is the only end to this cycle of birth and death. The other two, svarga and naraka are to give the souls the fruit of what they have done in their human form.

Or to rephrase it a third way, if I were to draw a parallel to another religion and use Christianity as an example, that religion has the story of the fall of Adam and Eve, which basically serves as some sort of explanation as to why suffering and evil exist (with the validity of the story being unimportant for the purpose of this thread). There was said to be some sort of early goodness, but then there occurred a problem, and then there was a lack of goodness. Does Hinduism have some sort of parallel to this, or some sort of explanation as to why we are all not already experiencing blissful union with god/Brahman?

Wonderful sister lyn, you too are on the path to sel-realization. The answer is yes. During the creation of our world, just before the beginning of the human race, the Gods created the duSTa santati(the bad lineage). It starts with aDharma(the opposite of good) and his wife mRShA(the goddess of lies). This is given with complete explanation in BAgavata 4th skanda, if you want, I will translate it for you to english. It is how the bad began even before there was a difference between good and bad. It was created by the Gods to test the humans whether they are ready to get mOkSha or not.

Do you believe there was ever a time when there existed nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union with god?
-Do you believe that, at any time in the future, there will exist a time when nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union in god will exist?
-How do these concepts relate to the cycles that are said to occur in Hindu cosmology? Does suffering/ignorance spring each time from the beginning of one of these cycles and end at the conclusion of each cycle? If so, why? If no, then what part do the cycles play in this process?
-Have all the beings that are currently in existence been here forever, or were they all created at some finite point?

That time refers to the time before creation(sRShTi), when the only one who existed was peramAtma.
That time refers to the time after the deluge(praLaya), when paramAtma will clean all his creation completing.
There are 4 yugAs(cycles) in our religion. They are kRta(satyuga as refered in north-India), trEta, dwApara and kali.
No. There is no ignorance at the beginning, but when the eon is about to end, people tend to become ignorant and Dharma decreases and aDharma increases, creating an atmosphere of misery and insufficiency. Then comes the deluge when the creation ends, paving way for a new eon or cycle.
These cycles are like the leaves in a tee, the old has to depart, the new has to arrive.
No. Nothing except the supreme soul has ever existed in all times. They were created out of him by him.


Sister Lyn, I enjoyed answering your question. Anything else, I will try to my level best to help you. Thank you.

 

[Riverwolf]

Allow me a question (and a speculation) or two, River?

Of course. Just remember that I'm a recent adopter of Hinduism, and I'm not as knowledgeable on these subjects as, say, Satsangi.

Could well be. Would you deem it possible for those reasons to include either a recognition that imparting the words is too dissimilar from imparting the actual wisdom of those answers, or perhaps that some of those questions are in fact counterproductive?

There could be several reasons. Maybe they felt that the knowledge would be misused if it was readily available. Maybe they couldn't put it into words. Maybe such questions are counter-productive. Who can really say?

I often feel that the one factor that unites Hinduism is its language. Nearly everything else, up to and including the ultimate goals of the religion, seem to be a matter of choosing one line over others.

Would you agree?

Do you mean language as in Sanskrit? Because I think that in some traditions, Tamil is a more sacred language.

 

[Pradyumnan]

All languages are religious, which is less or which is more should be left out of this topic. Please keep languages out of the point when discussing religion. If needs arise, start a new thread on languages related to religion and I will duly participate in it.

 

[Pradyumnan]

Counter productive? Please publish your question and answer will be given if not immediately, after some time.

 

[LuisDantas]

(One of these days I'll get in trouble for talking too much in a DIR not my own... My apologies if it happens now.)

Do you mean language as in Sanskrit? Because I think that in some traditions, Tamil is a more sacred language.

No, that is not quite what I meant. I mean mainly the religious concepts, such as (say) Avatar or Buddha, or even the impressive vocabulary. Actually having such things as the concepts of Dvaita and Advaita Traditions, or the powerful archetypes of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, is quite the advantage for independent religious thinkers, and breeds an equally impressive variety of actual religious paths.

Of course, that is what I think, not a fact. But I aim to understand as best as I can.

 

[Madhuri]

My question is, in Hinduism what are the explanations for why this is the case? How did it get to be that so many beings are in ignorance? Was it part of a plan? Was it some fall? Is this how things are always meant to be, or is this a problem that is mean to be resolved?

To put it simply, there was never a point in time when God thought: I want to create a world with a purpose where people have to do such and such in order to gain *some other thing*. The material universe is a natural part of existence. It simply is. And part of material nature is this Maya, illusion. It is also natural, and simply exists. Also, the soul begins its journey without knowledge. Our existence is one of constant evolution- so we being in as the lowest form of life and progress from there. This progression is also natural and attainment of the highest platform of existence is also inevitable.

My question is, why is everyone not already in a state of Moksha? Why does anything other than Moksha exist?

We, the souls, represent the Marginal Potency of God. This means that we naturally experience a struggle between selfish desires and union with the divine. The material universe is a playing field. Life is sometimes referred to as a drama, and God is the hero. God can be thought of as the greatest enjoyer. We all like drama. And we represent a part of the divine that plays out the great drama.

Some sub-questions might be applicable, such as:
-Do you believe there was ever a time when there existed nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union with god?

This is a tricky question because in reality, nothing actually does exist other than God. But if you mean, was there ever a time when every soul was in perfect union with God then I would say no. Although there are Hindus who I think would say yes.

-Do you believe that, at any time in the future, there will exist a time when nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union in god will exist?

No. There are infinite amounts of souls, and every aspect of God is infinite.

-How do these concepts relate to the cycles that are said to occur in Hindu cosmology? Does suffering/ignorance spring each time from the beginning of one of these cycles and end at the conclusion of each cycle? If so, why? If no, then what part do the cycles play in this process?

The creation and dissolution occur because the universe has a life cycle just like everything. But the souls that take birth within it progress at their own pace. If by the end of one cycle they have not attained liberation, then they simply come back when an appropriate body is available. Think of it this way: you and I have already existed forever and there have been limitless cycles of universal creation and dissolution.

-Have all the beings that are currently in existence been here forever, or were they all created at some finite point?

Thanks,
-Lyn

I am not completely sure. What I was taught is that though every soul has existed eternally, we have not always been living in the material universe. I think we exist in a neutral state of consciousness until some point when either it is our time to come or we experience the desire to come. And then our journey begins. But honestly, someone else might have better insight into this.

 

[Pradyumnan]

Brother Luis, this dir, just like sanAtana Dharma is universal. You are free to comment(keeping in mind the emotions of us all). Your derivationa and queries make a very interesting read!
And about the religious concepts, impressive vocabulary and powerful archetypes, beyond all this, there is nothing but the thirst for knowledge which led these men into the path where we today follow them. SanAtana Dharma, is not a religion, its a way of life.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks for accomodating my questions and speculations, Pradyumnan. I'm well aware that this is a DIR, so I depend on your good will.

 

[Satsangi]

Hi Penumbra,

Warm welcome to RF. I am very glad at your inquisitive questions. I had many questions too, and ALL have been answered in the Scriptures of Sanatana Dharma. I shall try my level best to answer your questions.

My question is, in Hinduism what are the explanations for why this is the case? How did it get to be that so many beings are in ignorance? Was it part of a plan? Was it some fall? Is this how things are always meant to be, or is this a problem that is mean to be resolved?

My question is, why is everyone not already in a state of Moksha? Why does anything other than Moksha exist?

Does Hinduism have some sort of parallel to this, or some sort of explanation as to why we are all not already experiencing blissful union with god/Brahman?

I have put these three questions together because their answer lies in the fundamental understanding of the Sanatana Dharma philosophy of Vedanta and hence you will have to ponder deeply on this answer. For simplicity, I will answer all these from the Vishishtadvaita philosophy view point only.

Jeeva (souls), Maya and Paramatman(God) are all ETERNAL. The individual souls ALWAYS from time eternal has had karmas attached to it. The transformation of Maya in its dormant form after the greatest deluge into its current universe like form is the creation. The creation and destruction are ETERNAL cycles. Hence, there was no time when the souls had no karmas attached.

The purpose of creation is to unable the Jeevas to bear the fruits of their karmic desires and to evolve them spiritually for final liberation.At the time of creation, the Jeevas are given various types of bodies in accordance with the fruits of their karmas as given by the Paramatman (God).

Due to Jeeva's karmic desires, it always identifies itself with the body which are three- gross (the body which we see), subtle (body of mind, ego, intellect) and causal (seed of strong desires responsible for the birth). This leads to formation of the concepts of "myself and mine." In reality, Jeeva is Sat-chit-ananda form (Atman)- pure consciousness free from all the concepts of "myself and mine". ONLY when the individual realizes that he is not this body but is the pure Atman, he attains liberation from the cycle of life and death. God has created all this world so that the Jeevas can realize their true nature and then know Him and devote to Him.

Do you believe there was ever a time when there existed nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union with god?
-Do you believe that, at any time in the future, there will exist a time when nothing except for god and/or beings in blissful union in god will exist?

After the final deluge, the God and the souls who have achieved final liberation live in the God's abode. The non liberated souls lie dormant in the Maya which itself is in the dormant inactive form engulfed by the effulgence of God. The creation cycle then again begins at the will of the God.

-How do these concepts relate to the cycles that are said to occur in Hindu cosmology? Does suffering/ignorance spring each time from the beginning of one of these cycles and end at the conclusion of each cycle? If so, why? If no, then what part do the cycles play in this process?

My guess is that by "Hindu Cosmology" you mean the cycles of Sat-yuga, Tretayuga, Dwaparyuga and Kaliyuga. Each phase has a fixed period. From Sat-yuga to Kali-yuga, the goodness decreases and the badness increases. Liberation is possible in all yugas and there is some suffering in all yugas. All the Sat-yugas are also not the same. Hence, the suffering does not end as a result of the yugas. Suffering only ends with liberation- in any yuga. The cycle are the function of Kaal (time) which is basically the concept that produces changes in the Maya. Just as 60 minutes make one hour, a fixed number of these yuga cycles equal to one day of Lord Brahma (creator aspect of God). At the end of that day, there is a deluge involving earth, heaven and hell. At the end of 100 such years of Lord Brahma, there is deluge of the Brahmanda (this Universe). In the final deluge, all the Universes undergo dissolution.

-Have all the beings that are currently in existence been here forever, or were they all created at some finite point?

The Jeevas are ETERNAL and INFINITE in numbers.

Regards,

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

In Sanatana Dharma / Hinduism, I have seen it said that existence has no beginning or end, but instead is cyclical and eternal. I have also seen it said that in Hinduism, most or all suffering/unhappiness/dissatisfaction is a result of ignorance. As in, we are ignorant of some true reality and thus live in a world of illusions where we suffer.

From the point view of Advaita Vedanta we suffer because we are fooled by our senses that we are small separate beings. In reality all is One. There is only God. When we wake up from our dream of separateness. All suffering comes to an end.

My question is, in Hinduism what are the explanations for why this is the case? How did it get to be that so many beings are in ignorance? Was it part of a plan? Was it some fall? Is this how things are always meant to be, or is this a problem that is mean to be resolved?

Yes, it is a popular subject for myths. There are many different stories about this. One is... At first the Sages were created with there senses going In side focusing their attention on the Atman (SELF). The sages all just went deep into meditation then into Samadhi and gave up their bodies, and creation came to an end. So God created beings with there senses going out. We focused on the outside world. We came to believe that all of us separate beings. This way creation could go on and the play of life could continue.

Does Hinduism have some sort of parallel to this, or some sort of explanation as to why we are all not already experiencing blissful union with god/Brahman?

We really don't want to be one with God. We have our attachments and desires.

One great Female Saint Sarada Devi said. When a mother needs to cook dinner for the family she sets her toddler down with a bunch of toys around her. As soon as the child gets sick of the toys and crys for her Mother. The mother comes running from the kitchen and picks the child up. God is the same way. Soon as we get tired of our toys and wants the bliss of God. She comes running.

 

[Penumbra]

I appreciate all of the replies.

I will respond to them and ask some more questions of them, but it will take some time, as I don't want to rush and respond without considering each one thoughtfully.

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

Swami Vivekananda was one of the greatest Hindu teachers in history. All of his writings can be found here:

Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda

By the way I've been reading some of his works from this link. He's a pretty smart guy, so thanks for the link.

 

[Penumbra]

My dearest sister Lyn,
You are such a wonderful person to have asked these questions. Behind everything that happens anywhere, there is a motive of the Gods to educate mankind and this is also the same.

As you have already mentioned, mankind staying in any state, either good or bad, is because of the karma it has performed. Sat-karma(good deeds) and duS-karma(misdeeds) lead to svarga(heaven) and naraka(hell) respectively. Now coming to your question, ignorance is caused by the mind that has no knowledge or is not trying to understand the paramAtma(supreme-soul). When we were given our lives by the Gods, we were given sufficient gnana(knowledge) to understand what is good and what is bad. But when we started using the gnana, we were much more attracted towards the temporary pleasures of life which lead to nothing but rebirth. We did not choose the way which leads us to mOkSha.

No, it was not any plan to make us ignorant. God gave us light and instead of searching for something fruitful to mOkSha, we went on delving into the unfathomable(by us) darkness of ignorance by indulging ourselves into one-day pleasures.

No, neither is it a fall nor was it meant to be this way. Though the scriptures refer to an age when mankind will realize its folly. Time will come when Gods will give us a chance to rectify ourselves. And even then if we fail to do so, its rebirth again.

MOkSha is of many types sister Lyn, sAyujya, sAlOkya, sArUpya... and so on. If you want the list, I will refer to BAgavata and give it to you.
Now this is what is the most disturbing part of it. We are not eager about mOkSha, what we crave for is pleasure. We do not try to know about our reason for being here but we go on indulging ourselves into this colourful world of enjoyment. I mean, Gods have given this colorful world so that we may enjoy our lives as humans and try to gain gnana about how to control our mind, but we should not make it a habit to go on deep into its depth. Thats why everyone are not mukta(one who has attained mOkSha is a muktha).

Things other than mOkSha do exist, svarga and naraka. These are for the gap period between our beginning(Adi) and union with God(mOkSha). After each birth, we are given the same knowledge(albeit our duS-karma janita). And after death, each and every karma performed by us, both good and bad is calculated. Based upon these facts, we are sent to svarga and naraka respectively. But these are for the souls who do not care for the eternal gnana. And for those mumukShu(people who are neither interested in svarga nor naraka) the doors of mOkSha is always opened. MOkSha is the only end to this cycle of birth and death. The other two, svarga and naraka are to give the souls the fruit of what they have done in their human form.

Wonderful sister lyn, you too are on the path to sel-realization. The answer is yes. During the creation of our world, just before the beginning of the human race, the Gods created the duSTa santati(the bad lineage). It starts with aDharma(the opposite of good) and his wife mRShA(the goddess of lies). This is given with complete explanation in BAgavata 4th skanda, if you want, I will translate it for you to english. It is how the bad began even before there was a difference between good and bad. It was created by the Gods to test the humans whether they are ready to get mOkSha or not.

That time refers to the time before creation(sRShTi), when the only one who existed was peramAtma.
That time refers to the time after the deluge(praLaya), when paramAtma will clean all his creation completing.
There are 4 yugAs(cycles) in our religion. They are kRta(satyuga as refered in north-India), trEta, dwApara and kali.
No. There is no ignorance at the beginning, but when the eon is about to end, people tend to become ignorant and Dharma decreases and aDharma increases, creating an atmosphere of misery and insufficiency. Then comes the deluge when the creation ends, paving way for a new eon or cycle.
These cycles are like the leaves in a tee, the old has to depart, the new has to arrive.
No. Nothing except the supreme soul has ever existed in all times. They were created out of him by him.

Sister Lyn, I enjoyed answering your question. Anything else, I will try to my level best to help you. Thank you.

Thanks for the detailed reply. You seem to be of the opinion that humans were created at a certain point, rather than being eternal. Can you elaborate on this?

-What existed before the human race was created?

-How long ago did this creation of the human race occur? (Are we talking, like, millions of lifetimes or a few thousand or..?) Does this happen at the beginning of each cycle (since you mention there is no ignorance at the beginning of each cycle), meaning that new beings are created at each cycle?

-From what I determine from your post, the human race was created, not in ignorance, but not in Moksha either. They were given some sort of choice between Moksha and other things. Why was it do you think that humans chose not to have Moksha? If they were not in ignorance, wouldn't they have known that Moksha is the best thing?

Thanks,
-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

To put it simply, there was never a point in time when God thought: I want to create a world with a purpose where people have to do such and such in order to gain *some other thing*. The material universe is a natural part of existence. It simply is. And part of material nature is this Maya, illusion. It is also natural, and simply exists. Also, the soul begins its journey without knowledge. Our existence is one of constant evolution- so we being in as the lowest form of life and progress from there. This progression is also natural and attainment of the highest platform of existence is also inevitable.


We, the souls, represent the Marginal Potency of God. This means that we naturally experience a struggle between selfish desires and union with the divine. The material universe is a playing field. Life is sometimes referred to as a drama, and God is the hero. God can be thought of as the greatest enjoyer. We all like drama. And we represent a part of the divine that plays out the great drama.


This is a tricky question because in reality, nothing actually does exist other than God. But if you mean, was there ever a time when every soul was in perfect union with God then I would say no. Although there are Hindus who I think would say yes.


No. There are infinite amounts of souls, and every aspect of God is infinite.


The creation and dissolution occur because the universe has a life cycle just like everything. But the souls that take birth within it progress at their own pace. If by the end of one cycle they have not attained liberation, then they simply come back when an appropriate body is available. Think of it this way: you and I have already existed forever and there have been limitless cycles of universal creation and dissolution.


I am not completely sure. What I was taught is that though every soul has existed eternally, we have not always been living in the material universe. I think we exist in a neutral state of consciousness until some point when either it is our time to come or we experience the desire to come. And then our journey begins. But honestly, someone else might have better insight into this.

Thanks for the response.

I guess the only thing in your post that is unclear to me is the apparent mismatch between the concept of a soul being eternal and a soul beginning its journey without knowledge. One implies a lack of a beginning while the other implies a beginning. From what I gather, to bridge these concepts, you believe in a sort of infinite pool of souls, eternal and therefore uncreated, that exist without action and become active at a certain point to begin their journey. Is this an accurate statement of what you said? Are new souls drawn from this pool into the material universe to continually replace souls that escape the material universe to reach Moksha?

I have seen the example of a drama before when discussing this and it is an interesting concept to me. Would you say that Moksha is sort of like individual actors retiring from the drama while the drama itself continues?

-Lyn