Origins

[Madhuri]

Thanks for the response.

I guess the only thing in your post that is unclear to me is the apparent mismatch between the concept of a soul being eternal and a soul beginning its journey without knowledge. One implies a lack of a beginning while the other implies a beginning. From what I gather, to bridge these concepts, you believe in a sort of infinite pool of souls, eternal and therefore uncreated, that exist without action and become active at a certain point to begin their journey. Is this an accurate statement of what you said? Are new souls drawn from this pool into the material universe to continually replace souls that escape the material universe to reach Moksha?

Yeh, that's basically it. You're good at this!

I have seen the example of a drama before when discussing this and it is an interesting concept to me. Would you say that Moksha is sort of like individual actors retiring from the drama while the drama itself continues?

-Lyn

That certainly seems like a valid metaphor. We strive for God Realisation when we're sick of the drama.

 

[Penumbra]

Yeh, that's basically it. You're good at this!

That certainly seems like a valid metaphor. We strive for God Realisation when we're sick of the drama.

Ok thanks for the answers.

I was going to give you frubals, but it won't let me because I just gave you some for another thread, so I'll just say that I really love your avatar and think it's really pretty.

-Lyn

 

[Riverwolf]

By the way I've been reading some of his works from this link. He's a pretty smart guy, so thanks for the link.

Oh, he's amazing. Sure, some of his scientific statements are a bit outdated, but otherwise, he really knows what he's talking about.

He's really the only Spiritual Teacher with whom I've agreed with on nearly every issue.

 

[Pradyumnan]

You seem to be of the opinion that humans were created at a certain point, rather than being eternal. Can you elaborate on this?

Dearest sister Lyn,
You are welcome. And sorry I am late to reply. Its not my opinion that humans were created at a certain point but our ancient scriptures explain in all details the creation of everything by the paramAtma. In case you need detail, please let me know.

What existed before the human race was created?

Both before the creation and after the deluge, there is nothing but void. The only thing that exists in this void is the supreme soul. ParamAtma starts the creation with the creation of the Gods and the sages. Then comes the creation of all AtmAs(souls) in different bodies and of different kinds.

How long ago did this creation of the human race occur? (Are we talking, like, millions of lifetimes or a few thousand or..?) Does this happen at the beginning of each cycle (since you mention there is no ignorance at the beginning of each cycle), meaning that new beings are created at each cycle?

As I said, there are 4 yugAs(eons) in our scriptures. The span of kRta era is 17,28,000 human years, trEtA era is 12,96,000 human years, dvApara era is 8,64,000 human years and kali era is 4,32,000 human years. The present one is the last yuga called kaliyuga-the yuga of the misdeeds. The present year being 5112th year of kali. So the next deluge will be after 4,26,888 years approximately. No. The souls are given new bodies at the start of every yuga.

Why was it do you think that humans chose not to have Moksha? If they were not in ignorance, wouldn't they have known that Moksha is the best thing?

We humans know that mOkSha is the best option but we seem to plunge into pleasures of life which are easily available. But some souls do not fall into temptations and come what may, they still opt for mOkSha to worldy pleasures.

Thank you.

 

[Penumbra]

Hi Penumbra,

Warm welcome to RF. I am very glad at your inquisitive questions. I had many questions too, and ALL have been answered in the Scriptures of Sanatana Dharma. I shall try my level best to answer your questions.

I have put these three questions together because their answer lies in the fundamental understanding of the Sanatana Dharma philosophy of Vedanta and hence you will have to ponder deeply on this answer. For simplicity, I will answer all these from the Vishishtadvaita philosophy view point only.

Jeeva (souls), Maya and Paramatman(God) are all ETERNAL. The individual souls ALWAYS from time eternal has had karmas attached to it. The transformation of Maya in its dormant form after the greatest deluge into its current universe like form is the creation. The creation and destruction are ETERNAL cycles. Hence, there was no time when the souls had no karmas attached.

The purpose of creation is to unable the Jeevas to bear the fruits of their karmic desires and to evolve them spiritually for final liberation.At the time of creation, the Jeevas are given various types of bodies in accordance with the fruits of their karmas as given by the Paramatman (God).

Due to Jeeva's karmic desires, it always identifies itself with the body which are three- gross (the body which we see), subtle (body of mind, ego, intellect) and causal (seed of strong desires responsible for the birth). This leads to formation of the concepts of "myself and mine." In reality, Jeeva is Sat-chit-ananda form (Atman)- pure consciousness free from all the concepts of "myself and mine". ONLY when the individual realizes that he is not this body but is the pure Atman, he attains liberation from the cycle of life and death. God has created all this world so that the Jeevas can realize their true nature and then know Him and devote to Him.

After the final deluge, the God and the souls who have achieved final liberation live in the God's abode. The non liberated souls lie dormant in the Maya which itself is in the dormant inactive form engulfed by the effulgence of God. The creation cycle then again begins at the will of the God.

My guess is that by "Hindu Cosmology" you mean the cycles of Sat-yuga, Tretayuga, Dwaparyuga and Kaliyuga. Each phase has a fixed period. From Sat-yuga to Kali-yuga, the goodness decreases and the badness increases. Liberation is possible in all yugas and there is some suffering in all yugas. All the Sat-yugas are also not the same. Hence, the suffering does not end as a result of the yugas. Suffering only ends with liberation- in any yuga. The cycle are the function of Kaal (time) which is basically the concept that produces changes in the Maya. Just as 60 minutes make one hour, a fixed number of these yuga cycles equal to one day of Lord Brahma (creator aspect of God). At the end of that day, there is a deluge involving earth, heaven and hell. At the end of 100 such years of Lord Brahma, there is deluge of the Brahmanda (this Universe). In the final deluge, all the Universes undergo dissolution.

The Jeevas are ETERNAL and INFINITE in numbers.

Regards,

Hello and thanks for your response.

If you don't mind, can you clarify what you mean when you say that the jeevas are eternal and have always had karma attached?

Why is this the case? Why was there a material world necessary to enable jeevas to bear the fruit of their karmic desires? I'm not sure I understand how jeevas could have always had karma attached, so clarification would help.

Thanks again,
-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

From the point view of Advaita Vedanta we suffer because we are fooled by our senses that we are small separate beings. In reality all is One. There is only God. When we wake up from our dream of separateness. All suffering comes to an end.

I understand this view as it relates to the present, but I'm interested in understanding the view as it relates to the cause.

In other words, how did we become fooled in the first place? How did we fall asleep and begin dreaming about separateness to begin with?

Yes, it is a popular subject for myths. There are many different stories about this. One is... At first the Sages were created with there senses going In side focusing their attention on the Atman (SELF). The sages all just went deep into meditation then into Samadhi and gave up their bodies, and creation came to an end. So God created beings with there senses going out. We focused on the outside world. We came to believe that all of us separate beings. This way creation could go on and the play of life could continue.

We really don't want to be one with God. We have our attachments and desires.

One great Female Saint Sarada Devi said. When a mother needs to cook dinner for the family she sets her toddler down with a bunch of toys around her. As soon as the child gets sick of the toys and crys for her Mother. The mother comes running from the kitchen and picks the child up. God is the same way. Soon as we get tired of our toys and wants the bliss of God. She comes running.

This is an interesting myth. God demonstrated her ability to create existence such that it achieves Moksha very quickly but specifically choose not to so that the drama may unfold.

I guess my question would be, if the play is so desirable, when why is it good to seek Moksha? Why does God want to keep the play going if the play is of lesser quality than Moksha?

In response to Madhuri's response, I compared the situation to an ongoing play that keeps going and going but individual actors retire. Do you agree with this view or no?

If you were to explain the value of the play, and why it is good to keep it going, how would you state it?

-Lyn

 

[Madhuri]

Ok thanks for the answers.

I was going to give you frubals, but it won't let me because I just gave you some for another thread, so I'll just say that I really love your avatar and think it's really pretty.

-Lyn

Thanks

 

[Satsangi]

Hello and thanks for your response.

If you don't mind, can you clarify what you mean when you say that the jeevas are eternal and have always had karma attached?

Why is this the case? Why was there a material world necessary to enable jeevas to bear the fruit of their karmic desires? I'm not sure I understand how jeevas could have always had karma attached, so clarification would help.

Thanks again,
-Lyn

The Jeevas (individual Souls) have always been there since time eternal. Just like God is eternal. To be more precise, it is the causal body that has always been attached with the Jeevas- just like when an iron rod is put in the heat, it glows with fire i.e the fire gets into the iron rod and they become inseperable. The causal body is responsible for rebirths. Think of the whole creation/destruction and rebirths as a CYCLE and NOT a LINEAR thing- that will help you understand why the causal body was always with the Jeevas. When the causal body is not any more with the Jeevas due to spiritual practices, then the Jeeva becomes a Mukta (liberated from rebirths). Hence, by definition, Jeeva means that there is a causal body unless it is already a Mukta.

The fruits of Karmas are in the physical world (awake state) as well as in the dream state and in the deep sleep state. Besides this earth, there are many other realms created for the Jeevas to bear their karma fruits which are as per the desires (Jeevas desires are material) and karmas of that Jeeva.

The same material world, when used correctly, can be instrumental for liberation. The same Indriyas that get one attached to material things can be used to break those attachments and get attached to the God instead.

Regards,

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I guess my question would be, if the play is so desirable, when why is it good to seek Moksha? Why does God want to keep the play going if the play is of lesser quality than Moksha?
-Lyn

I just want to state I have no personal knowledge of this subject, I am not a sage. I can only use reason (how ever limited my abilities are) and the scriptures.

There are no lessor or higher qualities. All is Brahman. The scriptures say there are times when the universe is manifest and then not manifest. My school of Hinduism teaches that Moksha is our natural state. You can be free while still in the body. One foot in the unity of the One the other in the diversity of maya. Then life become a fun play of enjoyment for us.

Why did the One become many who knows?

This is from the Nasadiya Sukta a creation Hymn from the Rig Veda.


Who truly knows, and who can declare whence it cometh?
And wihither it vanishesh?
The divine powers were born
much later after Creation came into being
Who then knows whence it came about?

Whence this creation has come
he holds or does not hold;
He who is its surveyor in the highest heaven
He alone knoweth
And yet doth he know?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1255123-post3.html

We Mother worshipers like to put cosmology in these terms. The Devi (Goddess) is matter, Shiva is conciseness, together they are Brahman one without a second. It is our mother that exposes conciseness, that is in endemic to the cosmos Herself.

I feel the important thing is what is the answer to the problem of the human condition. All we can do is speculate on just how we got to this point.

Is the path to liberation desirable? I think so, only very few make a concerted effort, most of us are perfectly happy with the fun and games of our lives. So the cosmos seems to be content with both freedom and bondage, Knowledge and ignorance, you can either join the party or not. It's all up to you.


A fun side comment is that many read the passage in the Nasadiya Sukta "The divine powers were born
much later after Creation came into being" To show that the Gods were created after creation. Gives you a lot to think about.

 

[kaisersose]

I understand this view as it relates to the present, but I'm interested in understanding the view as it relates to the cause.

In other words, how did we become fooled in the first place? How did we fall asleep and begin dreaming about separateness to begin with?

All schools of Vedanta are agreed that Karma is beginningless. This is very different from the Hare Krishna theology that everything was cool once upon a time, but then the soul got bored and desired a material life and fell into bondage. The problem with the latter is the danger never ends. The soul can get liberated and fall down again, as it did the previous time. This danger does not exist In Vedanta traditions as they consider Moksha/Liberation to be irreversible.

I guess my question would be, if the play is so desirable, when why is it good to seek Moksha? Why does God want to keep the play going if the play is of lesser quality than Moksha?

Good question and no one can provide an answer outside the realm of speculation.

But there are some observations pertinent to this question. Karma in its basic form, is actually an atheistic concept, also common to some other atheistic schools in India that existed during the time it became prevalent. As Karma is beginningless, it was not created by anyone, including a creator God. The type of karma reaped by the soul depends only on the indidvidual's past actions. Undoing Karma is also the responsibililty of the individual without the intervention of a God. The general idea is takes several lifetimes for one to neutralize the effect of karma and not be born again. This again, is different from the Hare Krishna tradition where they believe, once they become Hare Krishnas, they will not be born again. (I am providing Hare Krishna positions here because a few of them post here and I do not want to discount their views).

So in response to your question, this system is without a beginning and was not created by a God. Vedanta traditions take both positions on Liberation -

a) It will take several lifetimes to end bondage
b) It can only happen through the grace of God

Though the two seem contradictory, there are ways to reconcile them.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Good question and no one can provide an answer outside the realm of speculation.

Even scientists don't think we can know what happened before the big bang.

We can however know if we are suffering less and becoming wise due to the affects of our spiritual practice. Will I ever have a complete understand of the creation of the cosmos? I sincerely have my doubts. I do believe I can become a better Dad husband and citizen of the world. I would take the second choice any day of the week.

 

[Satsangi]

I guess my question would be, if the play is so desirable, when why is it good to seek Moksha? Why does God want to keep the play going if the play is of lesser quality than Moksha?

It is upto the individual to decide if the play is good or if the Moksha is good; there is no compulsion to try for Moksha. But, the whole Samsara (play) is structured in such a way that one will not have pleasure in it; there will always be one thing missing which will make one miserable.

Only in God one finds happiness/bliss without sadness being the other side of the coin. Everything in the Samsara has the opposite side of the coin. Hence, the wise Sages of Sanatana Dharma has said that the "pleasure" of all the heavens appears like hell when compared to a split second bliss of God. Just out of sheer compassion for us, they advise us that the "play" is not good and the Moksha is good.

Regards,

 

[kaisersose]

It is upto the individual to decide if the play is good or if the Moksha is good; there is no compulsion to try for Moksha. Regards,

That is an important point.

It is not the case that the Hindu has to work towards Moksha or else he is doing something wrong. Desiring & working towards Moskha is entirely up to the individual.

Most Hindus do not find the concept of Moskha interesting and are happy enough living a material life. They are not lesser HIndus. They just prefer to focus their time and energy on this life - here and now - than on the afterlife.

 

[Satsangi]

That is an important point.

It is not the case that the Hindu has to work towards Moksha or else he is doing something wrong. Desiring & working towards Moskha is entirely up to the individual.

Most Hindus do not find the concept of Moskha interesting and are happy enough living a material life. They are not lesser HIndus. They just prefer to focus their time and energy on this life - here and now - than on the afterlife.

Doing wrong or not depends on people's viewpoint. But, if Scriptures are any guide, then after one birth, ten births, thousand births or million births, the person living in the material life will ultimately get fed up of it to the hilt and then go irreversibly towards the God by giving it all up.

Regards,

 

[Penumbra]

The Jeevas (individual Souls) have always been there since time eternal. Just like God is eternal. To be more precise, it is the causal body that has always been attached with the Jeevas- just like when an iron rod is put in the heat, it glows with fire i.e the fire gets into the iron rod and they become inseperable. The causal body is responsible for rebirths. Think of the whole creation/destruction and rebirths as a CYCLE and NOT a LINEAR thing- that will help you understand why the causal body was always with the Jeevas. When the causal body is not any more with the Jeevas due to spiritual practices, then the Jeeva becomes a Mukta (liberated from rebirths). Hence, by definition, Jeeva means that there is a causal body unless it is already a Mukta.

The fruits of Karmas are in the physical world (awake state) as well as in the dream state and in the deep sleep state. Besides this earth, there are many other realms created for the Jeevas to bear their karma fruits which are as per the desires (Jeevas desires are material) and karmas of that Jeeva.

The same material world, when used correctly, can be instrumental for liberation. The same Indriyas that get one attached to material things can be used to break those attachments and get attached to the God instead.

Regards,

So would you say that each individual has had an infinite number of past lives?

It seems difficult for me to grasp. People that accept the existence of Moksha tend to agree that it is the best possible thing. In this thread, people have also pointed out that not every individual has to work towards Moksha all the time, and instead can pursue what they want, but that eventually they'll likely get tired with the material world and pursue Moksha because compared to Moksha this is a hell.

So, it seems to me that existing in the material world would be undesirable or problematic. If one supposes that this undesirable or problematic condition has existed eternally, does that mean that there has always been undesirables and problems in existence with God in the picture?

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

I just want to state I have no personal knowledge of this subject, I am not a sage. I can only use reason (how ever limited my abilities are) and the scriptures.

There are no lessor or higher qualities. All is Brahman. The scriptures say there are times when the universe is manifest and then not manifest. My school of Hinduism teaches that Moksha is our natural state. You can be free while still in the body. One foot in the unity of the One the other in the diversity of maya. Then life become a fun play of enjoyment for us.

Why did the One become many who knows?

This is from the Nasadiya Sukta a creation Hymn from the Rig Veda.


Who truly knows, and who can declare whence it cometh?
And wihither it vanishesh?
The divine powers were born
much later after Creation came into being
Who then knows whence it came about?

Whence this creation has come
he holds or does not hold;
He who is its surveyor in the highest heaven
He alone knoweth
And yet doth he know?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1255123-post3.html

We Mother worshipers like to put cosmology in these terms. The Devi (Goddess) is matter, Shiva is conciseness, together they are Brahman one without a second. It is our mother that exposes conciseness, that is in endemic to the cosmos Herself.

I feel the important thing is what is the answer to the problem of the human condition. All we can do is speculate on just how we got to this point.

Is the path to liberation desirable? I think so, only very few make a concerted effort, most of us are perfectly happy with the fun and games of our lives. So the cosmos seems to be content with both freedom and bondage, Knowledge and ignorance, you can either join the party or not. It's all up to you.

A fun side comment is that many read the passage in the Nasadiya Sukta "The divine powers were born
much later after Creation came into being" To show that the Gods were created after creation. Gives you a lot to think about.

When you say,

"One foot in the unity of the One the other in the diversity of maya. Then life become a fun play of enjoyment for us."

can you expand on this? In what ways does life become a fun play of enjoyment for those that have reached Moksha in the human body?

And, if one reaches Moksha in the human body, and eventually that human body dies, can the one in Moksha come back down with another body?

 

[Penumbra]

All schools of Vedanta are agreed that Karma is beginningless. This is very different from the Hare Krishna theology that everything was cool once upon a time, but then the soul got bored and desired a material life and fell into bondage. The problem with the latter is the danger never ends. The soul can get liberated and fall down again, as it did the previous time. This danger does not exist In Vedanta traditions as they consider Moksha/Liberation to be irreversible.

It's interesting that you bring this up, because I've made the same observation before (except I was/am not familiar with specific theologies in Sanatana Dharma). On another forum a while back I was talking with some Hindus and brought up that if humans were once in Moksha but are not anymore, then it might be possible that, if they achieve Moksha again, to drift out of it again.

Good question and no one can provide an answer outside the realm of speculation.

But there are some observations pertinent to this question. Karma in its basic form, is actually an atheistic concept, also common to some other atheistic schools in India that existed during the time it became prevalent. As Karma is beginningless, it was not created by anyone, including a creator God. The type of karma reaped by the soul depends only on the indidvidual's past actions. Undoing Karma is also the responsibililty of the individual without the intervention of a God. The general idea is takes several lifetimes for one to neutralize the effect of karma and not be born again. This again, is different from the Hare Krishna tradition where they believe, once they become Hare Krishnas, they will not be born again. (I am providing Hare Krishna positions here because a few of them post here and I do not want to discount their views).

So in response to your question, this system is without a beginning and was not created by a God. Vedanta traditions take both positions on Liberation -

a) It will take several lifetimes to end bondage
b) It can only happen through the grace of God

Though the two seem contradictory, there are ways to reconcile them.

Thank you. This is a new concept for me. Although I know that Karma can be an atheistic concept as it's present in some atheistic Dharmic religions, I've never before seen it presented as an atheistic concept within a theistic religion.

So two things have always existed, God, and souls with Karma attached. Do you suppose that each soul has had an infinite number of lifetimes?

When you mention ways to reconcile them, can you provide some examples?

-Lyn

 

[Satsangi]

And, if one reaches Moksha in the human body, and eventually that human body dies, can the one in Moksha come back down with another body?

Moksha means that soul is freed from compulsory rebirths. With God's wish or their own wish, such great souls take human body of their own free will and leave the body of their own free will in order to benefit the mankind spiritually. They are not bound by the Kaal or Karma or Maya.

So would you say that each individual has had an infinite number of past lives?

Yes each individual has had countless past lives.

So, it seems to me that existing in the material world would be undesirable or problematic. If one supposes that this undesirable or problematic condition has existed eternally, does that mean that there has always been undesirables and problems in existence with God in the picture?

For the God and God realized souls, there are no problems. But, to answer the question, yes the "undesirable" has always been there for people bound by Maya.

Regards,

 

[kaisersose]

It's interesting that you bring this up, because I've made the same observation before (except I was/am not familiar with specific theologies in Sanatana Dharma). On another forum a while back I was talking with some Hindus and brought up that if humans were once in Moksha but are not anymore, then it might be possible that, if they achieve Moksha again, to drift out of it again.

With Advaita it is a non-issue. There is no duality after Moksha and hence there is no individual nor the the world. Clearly, Moksha is a one way ticket out.

With dualistic doctrines, the soul continues to be separate from Brahman and in doctrines like Dvaita, the world continues to exist. Here, a theoritical reversal is possible, however it is explicitly said in several places that it is the abode of no return. It has been a while and I will have to look them up.

Thank you. This is a new concept for me. Although I know that Karma can be an atheistic concept as it's present in some atheistic Dharmic religions, I've never before seen it presented as an atheistic concept within a theistic religion.

The concept of Karma is the same in Buddhism and Sankya, both of which explain the concept without bringing in a God.

In Vedanta, it is held that Moksha happens through grace alone. So what about expending Karma? They believe grace plays a role in the process of coming out of the cycle, by creating favorable* circumstances for the aspirant. Again, I will have to lookup references, if you need details. But meanwhile, try reading Gita commentaries to get a basic idea of how Vedanta doctrines relate Karma, Moksha and the divine.

* These circumstances will not necessarily appear to be favorable to the aspirant.

 

[Penumbra]

Ok, thank you for all the replies.

-Lyn