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Original Sin - a question about it

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I actually like to think of Kingdom of God exactly the way Bible has described it.

"The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." Matt. 13:32


there are many descriptions of the kingdom of God in the bible. They vary depending on the context, but the one that I find most compelling is that from the book of Daniel.

Daniel 2:44
“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite

and then the new age that you speak of is beautifully expressed in Revelation 21:2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new."

This new age cannot begin to occur until the kingdom has permanently removed mankinds rulerships.




With regard to when the last days actually began, bible students of the past looked to Luke chapter 21:24 whereJesus said:
“And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” When these 'appointed times of the nations' ended, that would mark the beginning of the “time of the end" or "last days' .

When Jesus said "jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations", Jerusalem was under subjugation to Rome...so the nations were already trampling on Jerusalem. The nations began to trample Jerusalem way back in 607bce when Babylon removed the last Isrealite King and became the ruler of the nation. It was in the book of Daniel where the vision of the 'wild beasts of the earth' is given. Those beasts represent the nations rulerships. And in that book, the gentile King (Nebuchadnezzar) is told that the rulership of the beasts would last for 'seven times' and then God would give the rulership to one who it rightfully belongs to...or iow, one of Gods choosing Dan 4:33.

the 'seven times' are prophetic, so the scriptural rule is applied: “A day for a year”according to Ezekiel 4:6-7. The “seven times” of earth’s domination by Gentile powers would therefore span 2,520 years (12 months of 30 days each) beginning with the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem in the seventh lunar month (Tishri 15) of 607 BCE. (2 Kings 25:8, 9, 25, 26)

From that point to 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. The remaining 1,914 years stretch from then to 1914 C.E. Thus, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, ended by Tishri 15, or October 4/5, 1914 C.E.








 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
3. how can there be an original sin concept in christianity of it says that the father shal not bear the sin of the child and vice versa?

The meaning of the holy verses is not limited to only one meaning. Every verse may virtually have infinite number of meanings and can teach several lessons.

One of the possible meanings of passing of the Sin from the first man to others, is that, essentially when people imitate their forefathers, then they are following their system of belief rather than referring to the Source, who is the Messenger of God. Thus, in every age, any new Messenger that came, asked people not to follow what your forefathers believe, but follow My guidance from God. There are a lot of wrong beliefs that through traditions is passed to the next generation. The Tree of Life is that new guidance from God in every age, while the Tree of Good and Evil, is that manmade knowledge which is current among people, which always keep people away from hearing the Words of God.


"They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words;" Jerm. 11:10
 
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barney1956

New Member
It is simply not true that scripture says sin is not inherited from ancestors. Scripture says exactly that.
Romans 5:12 clearly shows sin spread from the one man Adam. Romans 3:23 adds "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"Death is through a man...in Adam all are dying. (1 Corinthians 15:21-23) We die because Adam passed on to us what he himself had, sin and imperfection. That is why Jesus had to 'give his soul a ransom in exchange for many'. (Matthew 20:28) As the perfect equivalent of Adam, born without sin, Jesus sacrifice of that perfect human life bought back or paid the price for what Adam had squandered. Thus, Jesus sacrifice opened the way for those exercising faith to gain everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 15:21,22 says "For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all all dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."


excellent explaination,agreeing with the scriptures.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
there are many descriptions of the kingdom of God in the bible. They vary depending on the context, but the one that I find most compelling is that from the book of Daniel.
This new age cannot begin to occur until the kingdom has permanently removed mankinds rulerships.

I agree that we need to look into the context. Let me ask you this then. With regards to the Parable of mustard Seed becoming a Tree (in Matt. 13:31 within the context), how would this be related to the Kingdom? I mean, what Jesus was trying to teach and point out, with this Parable and how would it be applicable to the Kingdom and the way the Kingdom must appear in your view?


Another one is:


"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. " Luke 17:22

How would you see this one be related to the way the Kingdom should appear? (If related at all)
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I agree that we need to look into the context. Let me ask you this then. With regards to the Parable of mustard Seed becoming a Tree (in Matt. 13:31 within the context), how would this be related to the Kingdom? I mean, what Jesus was trying to teach and point out, with this Parable and how would it be applicable to the Kingdom and the way the Kingdom must appear in your view?

a mustard seed is small, but grows into a very large tree... the kingdom, as represented on earth, started small with just Jesus and his 12 apostles. From the first century, the kingdom has grown in number with many adherents and has extended far and wide. Its starting point was in Jerusalem and its followers are found in ever nation on earth today.



Another one is:

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. " Luke 17:22

How would you see this one be related to the way the Kingdom should appear? (If related at all)

There is another way that this verse can be rendered. The context is that Jesus was addressing the hypocritical Pharisees at this time who hated Jesus. jesus knew they did not like him and so he applied Isaiah 29:13 to them which reads: “Their heart is far from me.”

So Jesus obviously didnt believe that the kingdom of God was within the hearts of those people. But if the verse is rendered with the alternate word we can get the true sense of what he meant in line with the context. In the King James Version there is a marginal footnote on this verse that gives the alternate translation... it says “The kingdom of God is among you.” And this is the way that many other translations of the Bible, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible and The New English Bible, also read.

So the way to understand this verse is that Jesus was here speaking of himself, the future King of Gods kingdom was living among them. He was in their midst as a real person and this should have been proof to them of that the Kingdom of God was near as he had preached.
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
[Pegg;2457786]
There is another way that this verse can be rendered. The context is that Jesus was addressing the hypocritical Pharisees at this time who hated Jesus. jesus knew they did not like him and so he applied Isaiah 29:13 to them which reads: “Their heart is far from me.”

So Jesus obviously didnt believe that the kingdom of God was within the hearts of those people. But if the verse is rendered with the alternate word we can get the true sense of what he meant in line with the context. In the King James Version there is a marginal footnote on this verse that gives the alternate translation... it says “The kingdom of God is among you.” And this is the way that many other translations of the Bible, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible and The New English Bible, also read.

So the way to understand this verse is that Jesus was here speaking of himself, the future King of Gods kingdom was living among them. He was in their midst as a real person and this should have been proof to them of that the Kingdom of God was near as he had preached.
Yes Pegg the kingdom of God was among them when Jesus walked the earth, but it is also within each and everyone of them, however they did not let His kingdom rule them, neverdeless His kingdom was in them; it is also in all of us. Because we all know good and evil the same as God, while He chooses to do good all of the time, we anly do good some of the time, in other words the more you do good the more your heart gets closer to God and to His kingdom, as you quoted Isaiah 29:13 “Their heart is far from me.”
 

othman.yaccob

New Member
Use your brain and think, who's create sin?- God. Why god must sacrifice his son to delete the sin. He just can rub it off or dont create sin at all.
 
"i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made."

orgional sin..
sin= disobeying God's law/commands
tree of good and evil= choice/free will
as a perfect creation, man knew only good before sinning. from the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of evil, we were given a choice between God's will= good and evil. the origional choice was to not eat of the tree= good/God's will and eat of the tree= evil.

Blame for origional sin= choice of mankind- transgression
God is just.
God warned adam before adam ate of the tree :
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
the consequences were known.

the punishment:
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

how this affects all of humanity:

we receive the knowledge of evil by blood, or humanity. All mankind acts upon his/her own desire and choice to obey God, or sin. when we choose sin, it puts mankind in the guilty, or condemned position. even if you only sinned once.

" then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made."

Jesus came as a sacrifice out of love for humanity for our sins, all we commit, and took them upon his own account, being innocent and perfect himself. He took our punishment for our sins on himself, and God gave us his righteousness in our account, as a gift of love by grace through faith.. to all but upon those that have faith in that.

that does not make us perfect, but we will not be condemned.

Humanity made the mistake, God forgives the mistake, for free out of love. He does not owe it to us to redeem anything, and would be just in not redeeming anything due to our own guilt, and sentance from the judge by the law of God.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It is simply not true that scripture says sin is not inherited from ancestors. Scripture says exactly that.
Romans 5:12 clearly shows sin spread from the one man Adam. Romans 3:23 adds "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"Death is through a man...in Adam all are dying. (1 Corinthians 15:21-23) We die because Adam passed on to us what he himself had, sin and imperfection. That is why Jesus had to 'give his soul a ransom in exchange for many'. (Matthew 20:28) As the perfect equivalent of Adam, born without sin, Jesus sacrifice of that perfect human life bought back or paid the price for what Adam had squandered. Thus, Jesus sacrifice opened the way for those exercising faith to gain everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 15:21,22 says "For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all all dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."

And you are aware you are discussing the nature of man?.....as compared to the original sin?

And salvation rants don't resolve the issue.
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Use your brain and think, who's create sin?- God. Why god must sacrifice his son to delete the sin. He just can rub it off or dont create sin at all.

Yes He could do that and abandon us to watch humanity become evil and full of perversions.
however God is accomplishing His grand design and purpose for humanity in relation to the universe. I am sorry to say you are blind.
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
instead of submitting to god like trained animals...
or obedient children...

we are born with a desire to do wrong?
We are born with a nature that desires to sin.

anyone with an ounce of integrity and self respect would disagree...
A person with integrity would deny that we are all prone to sin(as defined by the Bible/Christianity)?

yes, we are responsible for our actions...one doesn't need to believe in god or have faith in it to know this...
I never said one did... some people, however, erroneously believe that the doctrine of Original Sin includes guilt for sins one has not committed.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
a mustard seed is small, but grows into a very large tree... the kingdom, as represented on earth, started small with just Jesus and his 12 apostles. From the first century, the kingdom has grown in number with many adherents and has extended far and wide. Its starting point was in Jerusalem and its followers are found in ever nation on earth today.

Yes, I pretty much agree.
Specially When Jesus said that His kingdom would not appear while He is in this world, but start to grow after He leaves this world:

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36

Thus even now, His kingdom is on the earth, even though He, Himself is not. Thus, can we not say, that he has been ruling the earth in a sense that He has been the King of Hearts and His Tree grew? If so, He has been ruling for about 2000 years.

Now, my question is that, with respect to His second coming, would His kingdom appear in the same way after He would leave the World again? Or you believe that the second time He wouldn't leave the world? If so, which verses of the Bible we can conclude that from?


There is another way that this verse can be rendered. The context is that Jesus was addressing the hypocritical Pharisees at this time who hated Jesus. jesus knew they did not like him and so he applied Isaiah 29:13 to them which reads: “Their heart is far from me.”
So Jesus obviously didnt believe that the kingdom of God was within the hearts of those people. But if the verse is rendered with the alternate word we can get the true sense of what he meant in line with the context. In the King James Version there is a marginal footnote on this verse that gives the alternate translation... it says “The kingdom of God is among you.” And this is the way that many other translations of the Bible, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible and The New English Bible, also read.

So the way to understand this verse is that Jesus was here speaking of himself, the future King of Gods kingdom was living among them. He was in their midst as a real person and this should have been proof to them of that the Kingdom of God was near as he had preached.

Yes, I agree that, since He was the King, thus the Kingdom was among them.
Now, how is it then, He says: "Kingdom does not come with observation"? because if we say Jesus was among them and they were seeing him, then it came with observation. My understanding is that, He meant that His heavenly Kingdom, does not come with worldly power, as they had expected, that He would actually rule people, in a worldly sense. But since He would be the King of the Hearts, thus He said, My Kingdom does not come with observation. Now, with respect to His second coming, do you believe that His kingdom would come with observation? If that's the case, are there any verses to support this belief?
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
or obedient children...

think about it...if one is to obey:
carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of
without thought or knowledge why, there is no room for growth or wisdom.
so what you mean by being obedient to god, doing what he says (whatever that means) without knowledge or experience, and not understand why 2+2=4..., doesn't really teach anything other then to be mindless because of the fear the ultimatum presents with disobedience...


We are born with a nature that desires to sin.
my focus is on the word "desires"


A person with integrity would deny that we are all prone to sin(as defined by the Bible/Christianity)?

you said:
we are born with a nature that desires sin.
thats different.
it's one thing to be curious, an innate quality in us all,
it's another to deliberately want to do wrong...

I never said one did... some people, however, erroneously believe that the doctrine of Original Sin includes guilt for sins one has not committed.

how is one not to feel guilt if they are innately curious and prohibited to be curious because all the faculties that would show the curiousness is considered sinful...?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
think about it...if one is to obey:
carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of
without thought or knowledge why, there is no room for growth or wisdom.
so what you mean by being obedient to god, doing what he says (whatever that means) without knowledge or experience, and not understand why 2+2=4..., doesn't really teach anything other then to be mindless because of the fear the ultimatum presents with disobedience...

Yap, Specially if afterward, we'd be a sinner anyways, due to what Adam did. Then, what's the point to even try?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
without thought or knowledge why, there is no room for growth or wisdom.
Who said without thought or necessarily knowledge?

doesn't really teach anything other then to be mindless because of the fear the ultimatum presents with disobedience...
You have an error in understanding Christian thought.

my focus is on the word "desires"
Considering that the word "desire" is a personification, the focus is incorrect.

thats different.
No it is not.

it's another to deliberately want to do wrong...
I never said that we deliberately want to sin. I said our nature desires to sin. You are not your human nature.

how is one not to feel guilt if they are innately curious and prohibited to be curious because all the faculties that would show the curiousness is considered sinful...?
Nobody said being curious was sinful...
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Now, my question is that, with respect to His second coming, would His kingdom appear in the same way after He would leave the World again? Or you believe that the second time He wouldn't leave the world? If so, which verses of the Bible we can conclude that from?

We beleive that Jesus would not be returning in a physical sense ever again. The kingdom that he was going to be the king of, resides in heavens besides Gods throne. This is why Jesus said the following:
John 14:19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live"
These words he spoke to his 12 apostles. They would behold him again because it was to them that the opportunity to rule with Christ was given. So they will see him in heaven. That is why the apostle Paul said, “Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”—2 Cor. 5:16. They knew Jesus in the flesh, but after he was resurrected, he was no longer in the flesh, he was now a powerful spirit person.

We can also look at the words of the Angels who spoke to the Apostles after Christ ascended to heaven:
Acts 1:9 And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Gal′i‧lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.

Jesus was only visible when he was speaking to them, as soon as he finished speaking, 'a cloud caught him up from their vision' so he was no longer visible...but they kept looking for him. The angles told the apostles that he would come in the same way - invisibly. So we have Jesus words that the world of mankind would not see him again, and the Angels words that he would come again invisibly.


Yes, I agree that, since He was the King, thus the Kingdom was among them.
Now, how is it then, He says: "Kingdom does not come with observation"? because if we say Jesus was among them and they were seeing him, then it came with observation. My understanding is that, He meant that His heavenly Kingdom, does not come with worldly power, as they had expected, that He would actually rule people, in a worldly sense. But since He would be the King of the Hearts, thus He said, My Kingdom does not come with observation.


I guess this really depends on exactly when the kingdom began to rule. The truth is that it did not begin to rule while he was on earth...You may recall during his ministry that he taught his followers to pray: “Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” Obviously at that time, the kingdom had not been established otherwise there would be no need to pray for it.

Even after he returned to heaven he did not begin ruling as king immediately. Paul quotes from Psalm 110:1 which says: “This man [Jesus] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Hebrews 10:12, 13) He was waiting for the command from God to “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” as Psalm 110:2 prophetically states.
When that time came, he began cleansing the heavens of Satan and his angels. The result of that war in heaven is stated in these words: Revelation 12:10 “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”

You have to remember too, that Jesus said that the kingdom would be restored when the 'appointed times of the nations' came to their end. Bible chronology puts that in the year 1914. And that explains very well why world events have gotten worse since that time, rather then better. The spoken of in Revelation says "so down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called devil and satan....woe for the earth...for the devil has come down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time" The short period of time is the 'last days' ... those 'critical times hard to deal with'

From all the scriptural and historical evidence, we can rightly conclude that Jesus was enthroned as king in 1914.

Now, with respect to His second coming, do you believe that His kingdom would come with observation? If that's the case, are there any verses to support this belief?

it will be in the sense of 'perceiving' rather then physically 'seeing'
Revelation 1:7 say “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.”
The world will get to be in such a state, that everyone will then understand or recognize that Christ is present. There will be enough physical evidence for people to realise that he is there and in that way “every eye will see him” even though they will refuse to accept him as it was in the day of Noah. Matt 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.


And people are already starting to recognize that all is not well. Here are a few quotes:

1993 Out of Control—Global Turmoil on the Eve of the Twenty-First Century. Zbigniew Brzezinski, former head of the U.S. National Security Council. He writes: “The onset of the twentieth century was hailed in many commentaries as the real beginning of the Age of Reason. . . . Contrary to its promise, the twentieth century became mankind’s most bloody and hateful century.... Never before in history was killing so globally pervasive, never before did it consume so many lives, never before was human annihilation pursued with such concentration of sustained effort on behalf of such arrogantly irrational goals.”


Professor Hugh Thomas “The twentieth century—although generally one of social improvement and heightened governmental concern for the lives of the poor—has been dominated by the machine gun, the tank, the B-52, the nuclear bomb and, finally, the missile. It has been marked by wars more bloody and destructive than those of any other age.”

the editor of the Miami, U.S.A., Herald: “Anyone with half a logical mind can put together the cataclysmic events of the past few years and see that the world is at a historic threshold. . . . It will change forever the way men live.”

Lewis Mumford: “Civilization is going downhill. Very definitely. . . . In the past when civilizations went downhill, it was a relatively local phenomenon. . . . Now, with the world more closely knit and held together by modern communications, when civilization goes downhill, the whole planet goes down.”

A History of the Modern World—From 1917 to the 1980s, by Paul Johnson “It may be that, after the seeming inevitability of two world wars, the creation of nuclear weapons was an admonitory gift, which spared us a third clash of great nations and introduced the longest period of general peace, albeit a peace of terror, since Victorian times. . . . What had gone wrong with humanity? Why had the promise of the nineteenth century been dashed? Why had the twentieth century turned into an age of horror or, as some would say, evil?”


Civilization on Trial, by Arnold Toynbee “There is now a recognition of the human rights of people of all classes, nations, and races; yet at the same time we have sunk to perhaps unheard-of depths of class warfare, nationalism, and racialism. These bad passions find vent in cold-blooded, scientifically planned cruelties; and the two incompatible states of mind and standards of conduct are to be seen to-day, side by side, not merely in the same world, but sometimes in the same country and even in the same soul.”

The preface in 1919—The Year Our World Began, by William K. Klingaman.
“Like a ghost that lingered past the appointed hour, the nineteenth century—with its essential orderliness, its self-confidence, and its faith in human progress—had tarried until August 1914, when the major European powers suffered a collective attack of muddleheadedness that led directly to the senseless slaughter of millions of the best young men of a generation. Four and a half years later, as the world tried to pick up the pieces after the wrenching cataclysm of the Great War, it became apparent to many (but by no means all) contemporary observers that the last remaining vestiges of the old order had been swept away, and that mankind had entered a new age that was considerably less rational and less forgiving of human imperfections. Those who had expected peace to usher in a better world found their hopes betrayed in 1919.”
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Who said without thought or necessarily knowledge?
what does obedience mean...?


You have an error in understanding Christian thought.
ok...explain


Considering that the word "desire" is a personification, the focus is incorrect.
if we are dealing with individuality (a persons natural desire to sin...) you need to explain to me why it is incorrect
so far you've refuted my argument(s) with no back up...
just with nay's...


No it is not.
see what i mean...why


I never said that we deliberately want to sin.
then what do you mean with "desire"....if you would have answered that
i wouldn't be repeating my question now would i? :rolleyes:

I said our nature desires to sin. You are not your human nature.

what do you mean by that? our nature is to know truth, at least to those who value integrity....which i would assume most people do.

Nobody said being curious was sinful...
so being complacent is virtuous? what do we do with the curiosity...let it stir up causing more and more questions to surface?
:no:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Yap, Specially if afterward, we'd be a sinner anyways, due to what Adam did. Then, what's the point to even try?

so knowledge or seeking knowledge is sinful by nature?
go figure, when all this is taken on by faith....
faith is supposed to be virtuous, correction, making uninformed decisions based on faith is considered virtuous...
na.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
what does obedience mean...?
The quality or state of being obedient... Obedient means being submissive to the restraint or command of authority... I don't see anything in there about lack of thought or knowledge.
from www.merriam-webster.com

ok...explain
I do not know a single Christian who follows God out of fear of the repercussions of sin.

if we are dealing with individuality (a persons natural desire to sin...
We aren't.

so far you've refuted my argument(s) with no back up...
just with nay's...
Your argument was based on a misunderstanding of what I said.

see what i mean...why
Because it isn't... You confuse the statement "our nature desires sin" with "we desire sin". They are not the same thing. The first is poetic, it involves metaphor. The personification of our human nature by saying it desires.

then what do you mean with "desire"....if you would have answered that
i wouldn't be repeating my question now would i?
I already noted what I meant.
Me said:
we are all prone to sin
To say our nature desires sin is to say we are, by our nature, predisposed to, or prone to, sin.

what do you mean by that? our nature is to know truth, at least to those who value integrity
That is a great example... I would agree that it is in our human nature to seek out the truth... that does not mean everyone does so. We can reject portions of our inherent nature; "you" are not your nature.

so being complacent is virtuous?
How did you ever take that from the quote you are responding to?
 
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